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Piper Logbooks

P

Paul Heinrich

PARTNER
Illinois & Wisconsin
Is it legal to sell a set of Piper Cub logbooks, registration, and certificate of airworthiness?

Barnstormers suspended my Hangar, without notice, because a person named Guy Fraser sent them an email complaining that an ad I placed offering a set of logbooks for sale was “suspicious, fraudulent, and illegal.”

Is it legal to sell them or not?

If it is, I would appreciate knowing Guy Fraser’s contact information so that an appropriate visit can be arranged.
 
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Paul Heinrich said:
Is it legal to sell a set of Piper Cub logbooks, registration, and certificate of airworthiness?

Barnstormers suspended my Hangar, without notice, because a person named Guy Fraser sent them an email complaining that an ad I placed offering a set of logbooks for sale was “suspicious, fraudulent, and illegal.”

Is it legal to sell them or not?

If it is, I would appreciate knowing Guy Fraser’s contact information so that an appropriate visit can be arranged.
Click to expand...

45.13(d) states that a data plate can't be removed except for maintenance. If you are selling a data plate, then you could be in trouble. If all you are selling is a set of log books, who cares. The registration isn't valid once ownership changes, so the registration certificate is worthless. The airworthiness certificate is only tied to a specific aircraft, so if you don't have a data pale with it, the airworthiness is also worthless.
 
Don't see why it would not be legal. Lots of aircraft up here were built around data tags. If you ask the right faa guy, he'd probably tell you it's illegal to fly.Did you contact Barnstormers?

Web
 
dga, yep. The data plate issue may be something different altogether. But the ad only offered the logbooks, registration, and C of A. I couldn’t figure out how that violated any rule or regulation, especially since I bought them from an ad that was posted on Barnstormers.

wireweinie, over the past couple weeks I had been trying to post a new ad, but it wouldn’t accept my username and password. I thought they were sending my password reset request to an old email address that I no longer had access to, so I could never login to update my contact information. Frustrated, I sent the baroness an email directly explaining my troubles and she responded that I was barred from the website for doing something illegal. It would’ve been nice if they had told me someone complained about the ad and had given me a chance to respond in a timely manner. But, no. Apparently they just accept the word of any misinformed or malevolent joe who complains without first checking to see if the complaint is legitimate.

Fraser’s email to Barnstormers didn’t even cite a rule or regulation as a basis for his allegation of wrongdoing—it basically just stated “selling logbooks is illegal.” And even though he didn’t identify himself as a person of authority, such as an official of the FAA, a federal agent, or a US Attorney, Barnstormers just took his word for it; case closed. Talk about misguided cancel culture.

Anyway, Barnstormers today said they reactivated my account, and, just to be on the safe side, I thought I should ask you guys, expecting someone here would know the right answer.

For what it’s worth; I know I’m an asshole, but I’m (truly) not a crook.
 
The FAA has been cracking down on the whole buying/selling logbooks and "building around logbooks" thing specifically on cubs since there are so many of them now that contain no original parts.

The feds can't point to any specific rule that makes it illegal to build a plane around logs but regardless of what the law is, the FAA will find a way to get you in trouble. They say you need a "minimum number of original parts" along with the logbooks but don't define what that minimum number is. Safest bet is to offer some parts (sticks, a couple ribs, a rudder) along with the logs and data plate to make it more legal so to speak.
 
I think you can sell pretty much anything you want, except certain drugs and weapons. You can sell logs, data tags, airworthiness certificates - I think there may be a line at fake drivers licenses or passports. Sure there is a law against selling counterfeit money.

The problem with the FAA is when you go to build something around a data plate, and they find out.

Missing data plates did not used to be a problem. Indeed, I have a FSDO letter authorizing one for one of my Cubs. Wait 'till you see how many Champ datta plates get thrown out with the rugs. The J3 plates were on the baggage lid - first thing to get lost.
 
Violations have been posted here where a complete airplane was built with just a data plate and old logbooks. If you have the entire wrecked airplane etc there is no issue but the FAA takes offence and violates if all you have is a data plate and paperwork.
 
Steve Pierce said:
Violations have been posted here where a complete airplane was built with just a data plate and old logbooks. If you have the entire wrecked airplane etc there is no issue but the FAA takes offence and violates if all you have is a data plate and paperwork.
Click to expand...

So conduct yourself accordingly. (and remember that loose lips sink ships)
 
Paul Heinrich said:
Barnstormers suspended my Hangar, without notice, because a person named Guy Fraser sent them an email complaining that an ad I placed offering a set of logbooks for sale was “suspicious, fraudulent, and illegal.”

If it is, I would appreciate knowing Guy Fraser’s contact information so that an appropriate visit can be arranged.
Click to expand...


I suggest contacting Barnstormers and asking them to obtain proof. If they can't PROVE it's illegal, it's not. And it is Barnstormers claiming it's illegal acting on information received. Don't let them just claim it without proof.


That being said, I know that back in the 80's and 90's it was rather commonplace and if not legal then accepted. I worked with a guy who rebuilt Cessna 150's for profit and he did that at least twice that I know of; each time with no trouble at all from the "authorities."


Don't visit the informant. Although most of us still consider it the right thing to do, in today's legal climate, it's not a percentage move.
 
RedOwlAirfield said:
I suggest contacting Barnstormers and asking them to obtain proof. If they can't PROVE it's illegal, it's not. And it is Barnstormers claiming it's illegal acting on information received. Don't let them just claim it without proof.


That being said, I know that back in the 80's and 90's it was rather commonplace and if not legal then accepted. I worked with a guy who rebuilt Cessna 150's for profit and he did that at least twice that I know of; each time with no trouble at all from the "authorities."


Don't visit the informant. Although most of us still consider it the right thing to do, in today's legal climate, it's not a percentage move.
Click to expand...

No different than the FAA Aircraft Registry.......they take ALL documents at face value. If someone falsifies a bill of sale.......or puts a lien on an aircraft ( even without cause)....the FAA uses that info as if it were legitimate and leaves the affected parties to put out the fire.
 
cubdrvr said:
If someone falsifies a bill of sale...
Click to expand...


It's a lot easier to create a (fake) bill of sale than it is to change the F.A.R.s. My suggestion was to get the restricting authority (Barnstormers) to illuminate the statutory justification. Forcing them to refer to a specific F.A.R. makes it a very simple resolution. Especially as in this case there is none that applies.
 
Ok, Barnstormers said today the person complained that selling logbooks specifically violated FAR 43.12 and 43.17.

I’ve read them and I strongly disagree. Neither section has anything to do with selling logbooks, registrations, airplanes, or parts of airplanes.

Does anyone care to comment?
 
Call the FAA and ask them or call Dan of Dan's aircraft. The whole case was cussed and discussed here several years ago.
 
Steve, I wasn’t selling an airplane built around a data plate. I wasn’t even selling a data plate. The two FAR sections noted have absolutely nothing to do with selling a set of logbooks. It discusses fraudulently altering documents and/or airplanes. How is selling logbooks “fraudulent” and/or how were they “altered” by me?

If a guy who bought them decided to build an airplane around my logbooks then it would be his responsibility to show the plane complied with the regulations, not mine. If you sell a gun to a registered, licensed gun owner, are you responsible for the crimes he commits while using it?

Minority Report style “pre-crime” enforcement still isn’t legal in the US, as far as I can tell. But then again, as you all know, I am frequently wrong.

I am upset for two reasons: first, that a non-governmental individual incorrectly concluded I had committed a crime and second, that Barnstormers so willingly suspended my account without notice, investigation, or the opportunity to respond.
 
Your Logbooks alone from a legal standpoint are worth nothing. Should stay with the airplane you made experimental. Call the FAA and ask them about selling your Logbooks. They will tell you the FARs and their reasoning. I don't particularly agree with it all but not worth investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in a restoration for them to come back and do what they did in the thread in linked above.
 
Paul Heinrich said:
Ok, Barnstormers said today the person complained that selling logbooks specifically violated FAR 43.12 and 43.17.

I’ve read them and I strongly disagree. Neither section has anything to do with selling logbooks, registrations, airplanes, or parts of airplanes.

Does anyone care to comment?
Click to expand...

I would assume Barnstormers is a private entity and can do, or not do, as they choose. Facebook, Twitter, etc. style of operation. Free ad?
 
Absolutely. Squeaky wheels get the grease.

It would be something altogether different if the complainant was from the FAA, instead of some 400 lb. putz bitching about something in which he has no special knowledge or expertise.
 
Raisedbywolves, BTW, how does providing factual background information and asking for educated opinions equate to an inappropriate complaint and/or not liking the answer?

Since neither Barnstormers nor anyone here pointed out FAR language that prohibits selling logbooks, registration, and a C of A, I don’t see how I could possibly be unhappy with the results of my post, especially since Barnstormers apologized to me for their error and reinstated my account.
 
Paul Heinrich said:
This may be the individual who thinks he is an FAR expert.
Anybody know him? Google thinks he may be a pharmacist out of Ocala Florida.



Personal Information
GUY CHRISTOPHE FRASER

10976 SW 62 Ter, Ocala, FL 34476

4050 SE 139TH LN
SUMMERFIELD FL 34491-8304
County: MARION
Country: USA
Medical Information:
Medical Class: Third Medical Date: 2/2016
MUST WEAR CORRECTIVE LENSES.
BasicMed Course Date: 10/18/2018 BasicMed CMEC Date: 10/18/2018
Certificates
PRIVATE PILOT
Certificates Description
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT
Date of Issue: 8/3/2003


Ratings:
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
Click to expand...
Tell him his BasicMed is over due. The on line course has to be taken every two years. The medical exam only every four.
 
Paul Heinrich said:
Raisedbywolves, BTW, how does providing factual background information and asking for educated opinions equate to an inappropriate complaint and/or not liking the answer?

Since neither Barnstormers nor anyone here pointed out FAR language that prohibits selling logbooks, registration, and a C of A, I don’t see how I could possibly be unhappy with the results of my post, especially since Barnstormers apologized to me for their error and reinstated my account.
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm going to edit this post. I'm glad you got your account unlocked as I don't think barnstormers was right in locking your account for that. It's just a bit much to post the suspected rat's information. We should probably just move on since the original question has been answered.
 
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Steve Pierce said:
Your Logbooks alone from a legal standpoint are worth nothing. Should stay with the airplane you made experimental. Call the FAA and ask them about selling your Logbooks. They will tell you the FARs and their reasoning. I don't particularly agree with it all but not worth investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in a restoration for them to come back and do what they did in the thread in linked above.
Click to expand...

I guess you must have glazed over Steve’s post. What did your local fsdo say?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
RaisedByWolves said:
I guess you must have glazed over Steve’s post. What did your local fsdo say?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yeah, unless you owned or flew that specific Cub, there is no value beyond sentimental value to logbooks for a non existing airplane, an expired registration card, and an airworthiness certificate that is no longer in effect. A set of blank Cub log books would have considerably more value than these.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Steve, Wolves, Dga, in case I’m not being clear; where SPECIFICALLY does the FARs say that? Specifically.

The sections of the FARs noted above have nothing to do with selling paperwork. In America, our laws must be clearly written in order to be enforced. What specific law prohibits selling paperwork?

And even though that’s not what I’m doing, what specific law prohibits building a certified airplane from all new parts? There is a big difference between the FAA “frowning” on doing so, and it being illegal.
 
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