Piper Logbooks

Paul Heinrich said:

Steve, Wolves, Dga, in case I’m not being clear; where SPECIFICALLY does the FARs say that? Specifically.

The sections of the FARs noted above have nothing to do with selling paperwork. In America, our laws must be clearly written in order to be enforced. What specific law prohibits selling paperwork?

And even though that’s not what I’m doing, what specific law prohibits building a certified airplane from all new parts? There is a big difference between the FAA “frowning” on doing so, and it being illegal.

Click to expand...

Never said there was a regulation prohibiting selling log books, expired registrations or airworthiness certificates that are no longer in effect. Just that they have no value.

Now, building an airplane from a data plate, installing a data plate on an aircraft not “manufactured” by the TC holder or licensee would be a violation of 45.10. 45.13(c) prevents the removal or installation of a data plate without authorization of FAA and 45.13(d) says it can be removed and reinstalled for the purposes of maintenance. All that said, removing the data plate from one aircraft and installing it on another would be a violation of 45.13(d).

Selling paperwork without a data plate and at least some part of the original airplane is worthless. Yes I know lots of folks have forged data plates, or built airplanes around data plates. Heck I built a Pilates PC-6 from a door frame and data plate. At least I had pieces of the original airplane, and my 337 was something like six pages of parts. New FAA policy on destroyed and scrapped airplanes came out last year, suggest you read Order 8100.19. Yeah, I know, it’s just policy, but policy you don’t want to get tied up in. Been there, done that, went all the way to my Senator to get satisfaction.

I think the biggest issue would be if you are including a Bill of Sale with the alleged paperwork with the thought that the purchaser might construct an airplane from a forged data plate. The production of that data plate is the worst issue, as not only would that be a violation of Part 45, (up to $10,000 fine and 5 years) but is also a violation of Title 18 USC, a felony, (not sure what the penalty is for fraud)for which you get an all expense paid vacation on the federal government, and a room mate named Bubba!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have a set of logbooks that are quite valuable. Sold an Arrow for $35 grand, out of license and no logs. Had the buyer sign a document saying that if I ever found the logs they would be five grand more. He could buy them or not.

Guess what? Found the logs. Then the FAA came up with an expensive spar inspection. I expect that someday I will get five grand for those logs.

Thanks for all the responses.

dga, haven’t there been previous threads posted about owners legally buying data plates from the TC holder?

And I’m not sure why you keep saying my current registration and my current airworthiness certificate is expired. Neither is expired and both are “in effect.” Together they represent a real, certified airplane which is duly registered and legal to fly with the FAA and it will remain so until it is de-registered. It matters not whether the airplane is in a million pieces which still need to be bought from the store and brought “airworthy” today, tomorrow, or 10 years from now; the paperwork remains valid.

The airplane for the paperwork was neither scrapped nor destroyed so I can’t see how last year’s policy change applies.

That they have no value to you is clear, but, thankfully, you’re not everybody.

If there is no airplane, the the registration is no longer in effect. As for the airworthiness certificate, read the terms and conditions, it is only in effect as long as the aircraft is maintained in accordance with Parts 21, 43, and 91. Again, if there is no airplane, it is not in effect.

As for “buying” a data plate from the TC holder, in certain cases a TC holder will provide a replacement data plate (for a fee) provided to can prove to them that you possess the original aircraft. In the case of Piper, they require that you have the fuselage with the build tag that was originally used with that specific serial number aircraft. In multiple cases, they would not provide a data plate if the fuselage was replaced with a different Piper fuselage, or a PMA fuselage. Not sure what other manufacturers do, but that has been the Piper policy for quite a while.

The issue of scrapped or destroyed is an FAA issue. I don’t agree with it. Under 49 USC, there is a definition of aircraft, and FAA hangs their hat on it. To be considered an aircraft, the item needs to be in a condition to fly, otherwise in their mind it is just parts. I went round and round with them for about 2 1/2 years, all the way to my Senator on this. Finally got a letter from the Executive Director of Flight Standards saying they will register my PA-16 once I provide photographic evidence that it is a complete and assembled aircraft capable of flight.

Now, I have to ask, why would you sell logs, airworthiness, and registration (even if it is, as you say a valid registration, once transferred it is no longer valid) if you have a complete aircraft? What value would those items be to anyone if they don’t have the airplane? If your intent on selling is so someone could build a different aircraft but use your serial number, that would be a violation of 18 USC for fraud. Maybe not on your part for selling it, but on the buyers part.

You never indicated if you were providing a Bill of Sale with the log books, registration and airworthiness. Personally i see no problem building an airplane around a LEGAL data plate, but as stated FAA takes a dim view of it. If the buyer files the Bill of Sale and an Application for Registration on a nun existing airplane, read the small print on the registration application! Fine of up to $500,000 and 5 years prison for violations of 18 USC 1001 and 46306. As the seller, you haven't done anything wrong, but the buyer may well bein big trouble if he files an application for registration.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I guess I’m wrong again: you suggest if disassembled, has a sbroken part, and/or not in annual, that means no registration, revoked A/W certificate, and no airplane. Imagine how surprised everyone would be if that were true.

Let’s agree we’ve beat this horse enough and move on to my next stupid question.

So Paul, how will you feel after you sell the paperwork, the buyer builds an airplane around it and the FAA pulls the Airworthiness and he ends up with a $200k pile of parts? We have given you things that have happened and you continue to come back and question what we say. I have seen it, can give you the owners contact and the FAA people who enforces it. Depends how deep you want to research trying to come to the answer you want to hear.

Paul, you don't read very well. The Airworthiness Certificate is only in effect as long as the aircraft is maintained per 21, 43, and 91. The direct quote is "Unless sooner surrendered, revoked, or a termination date is otherwise established by the FAA, this airworthiness certificate is effective as long as the maintenance and alterations are performed in accordance with Parts 21, 43, and 91 of the Federal Aviation Regulations as appropriate, and the aircraft is registered with the United States." So if you have an aircraft that is broken, or out of annual, the airworthiness certificate is not in effect until those maintenance requirements have been accomplished.

On the back of your registration it says "Title 49 USC 44103(c)(2) provides "A certificate of registration issued under this section is not evidence of ownership of aircraft in a proceeding in which ownership may be in issue." This Certificate must be signed and returned by the registered owner within 21 days when it is no longer in effect for any reason under 14 CFR 47.41(a)(1) through (7). Registration is canceled at the request of the owner for one of the following reasons and item (e) is the ownership of the aircraft has transferred.

47.41 states "Each Certificate of Aircraft Registration, AC Form 8050-3, issued by the FAA under this subpart is effective, unless registration has ended by reason of having been revoked, canceled, expired, or the ownership is transferred, until the date upon which one of the following events occurs:

• 
  (1) Subject to the Convention on the International Recognition of Rights in Aircraft when applicable, the aircraft is registered under the laws of a foreign country.(2) The aircraft is totally destroyed or scrapped.
  (3) The holder of the certificate loses his U.S. citizenship.
  (4) 30 days have elapsed since the death of the holder of the certificate.
  (5) The owner, if an individual who is not a citizen of the United States, loses status as a resident alien, unless that person becomes a citizen of the United States at the same time.
  (6) If the owner is a corporation other than a corporation which is a citizen of the United States--
  
  • 
    (i) The corporation ceases to be lawfully organized and doing business under the laws of the United States or any State thereof; or(ii) A period described in Sec. 47.9(b) ends and the aircraft was not based and primarily used in the United States during that period.
  
  (7) If the trustee in whose name the aircraft is registered--
  • 
    (i) Loses U.S. citizenship;(ii) Loses status as a resident alien and does not become a citizen of the United States at the same time; or
    (iii) In any manner ceases to act as trustee and is not immediately replaced by another who meets the requirements of Sec. 47.17(c)."
    
    So as soon as ownership is transferred, the registration is canceled.
    
    I rest my case, once you sell your "stuff", ownership is transferred and the registration is no longer valid. Since the "aircraft isn't maintained per 21, 43, and 91, AND it is no longer registered, the airworthiness is no longer in effect.
    
    The new owner may file an application for registration, but that is where it gets sticky, as without the actual aircraft he is in violation of 18 USC. He can't even apply for registration unless you provide him with a Bill of Sale. Once that bill of sale is executed, the registration is no longer valid based on 47.41
    
    You asked for the legal explanation, there it is.
    
    
    

Just one more point, even if you were to convince Piper Aircraft Inc. to issue you a replacement data plate, that replacement still isn't any good as it does not comply with the certification basis for the airplane. It will have the incorrect manufacturer, and the incorrect Production Certificate number along with other issues. Of course don't tell FAA that, that just confuses the hell out of them!

Here’s an idea, why don’t you give the Milwaukee FSDO a call and settle this once and for all.

Milwaukee Flight Standards District Offices
4915 South Howell Avenue
Milwaukee, WI 53207(414) 486-2920

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/mke/local_more/media/serviceareamke.pdf


Let us know what they have to say.
I’m assuming you built your exp pa-12 out of this certified one and have the paperwork left over. Might want to leave that part out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RaisedByWolves said:

Here’s an idea, why don’t you give the Milwaukee FSDO a call and settle this once and for all.

Milwaukee Flight Standards District Offices
4915 South Howell Avenue
Milwaukee, WI 53207(414) 486-2920

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/mke/local_more/media/serviceareamke.pdf


Let us know what they have to say.
I’m assuming you built your exp pa-12 out of this certified one and have the paperwork left over. Might want to leave that part out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Yeah, I’d love to see the Amateur Built Fabrication and assembly checklist for that PA-12 Amateur Built to show major portion.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk