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Thread: Piper Logbooks

  1. #1

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    Piper Logbooks

    Is it legal to sell a set of Piper Cub logbooks, registration, and certificate of airworthiness?

    Barnstormers suspended my Hangar, without notice, because a person named Guy Fraser sent them an email complaining that an ad I placed offering a set of logbooks for sale was “suspicious, fraudulent, and illegal.”

    Is it legal to sell them or not?

    If it is, I would appreciate knowing Guy Fraser’s contact information so that an appropriate visit can be arranged.
    Last edited by Paul Heinrich; 07-21-2021 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Correct spelling error

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Is it legal to sell a set of Piper Cub logbooks, registration, and certificate of airworthiness?

    Barnstormers suspended my Hangar, without notice, because a person named Guy Fraser sent them an email complaining that an ad I placed offering a set of logbooks for sale was “suspicious, fraudulent, and illegal.”

    Is it legal to sell them or not?

    If it is, I would appreciate knowing Guy Fraser’s contact information so that an appropriate visit can be arranged.
    45.13(d) states that a data plate can't be removed except for maintenance. If you are selling a data plate, then you could be in trouble. If all you are selling is a set of log books, who cares. The registration isn't valid once ownership changes, so the registration certificate is worthless. The airworthiness certificate is only tied to a specific aircraft, so if you don't have a data pale with it, the airworthiness is also worthless.
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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Don't see why it would not be legal. Lots of aircraft up here were built around data tags. If you ask the right faa guy, he'd probably tell you it's illegal to fly.Did you contact Barnstormers?

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Sell them a rib with the data tag and call it a 'project'.

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    How much are you asking? PM me.

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    dga, yep. The data plate issue may be something different altogether. But the ad only offered the logbooks, registration, and C of A. I couldn’t figure out how that violated any rule or regulation, especially since I bought them from an ad that was posted on Barnstormers.

    wireweinie, over the past couple weeks I had been trying to post a new ad, but it wouldn’t accept my username and password. I thought they were sending my password reset request to an old email address that I no longer had access to, so I could never login to update my contact information. Frustrated, I sent the baroness an email directly explaining my troubles and she responded that I was barred from the website for doing something illegal. It would’ve been nice if they had told me someone complained about the ad and had given me a chance to respond in a timely manner. But, no. Apparently they just accept the word of any misinformed or malevolent joe who complains without first checking to see if the complaint is legitimate.

    Fraser’s email to Barnstormers didn’t even cite a rule or regulation as a basis for his allegation of wrongdoing—it basically just stated “selling logbooks is illegal.” And even though he didn’t identify himself as a person of authority, such as an official of the FAA, a federal agent, or a US Attorney, Barnstormers just took his word for it; case closed. Talk about misguided cancel culture.

    Anyway, Barnstormers today said they reactivated my account, and, just to be on the safe side, I thought I should ask you guys, expecting someone here would know the right answer.

    For what it’s worth; I know I’m an asshole, but I’m (truly) not a crook.
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    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    The FAA has been cracking down on the whole buying/selling logbooks and "building around logbooks" thing specifically on cubs since there are so many of them now that contain no original parts.

    The feds can't point to any specific rule that makes it illegal to build a plane around logs but regardless of what the law is, the FAA will find a way to get you in trouble. They say you need a "minimum number of original parts" along with the logbooks but don't define what that minimum number is. Safest bet is to offer some parts (sticks, a couple ribs, a rudder) along with the logs and data plate to make it more legal so to speak.
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    I think you can sell pretty much anything you want, except certain drugs and weapons. You can sell logs, data tags, airworthiness certificates - I think there may be a line at fake drivers licenses or passports. Sure there is a law against selling counterfeit money.

    The problem with the FAA is when you go to build something around a data plate, and they find out.

    Missing data plates did not used to be a problem. Indeed, I have a FSDO letter authorizing one for one of my Cubs. Wait 'till you see how many Champ datta plates get thrown out with the rugs. The J3 plates were on the baggage lid - first thing to get lost.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Violations have been posted here where a complete airplane was built with just a data plate and old logbooks. If you have the entire wrecked airplane etc there is no issue but the FAA takes offence and violates if all you have is a data plate and paperwork.
    Steve Pierce

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    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Violations have been posted here where a complete airplane was built with just a data plate and old logbooks. If you have the entire wrecked airplane etc there is no issue but the FAA takes offence and violates if all you have is a data plate and paperwork.
    So conduct yourself accordingly. (and remember that loose lips sink ships)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Barnstormers suspended my Hangar, without notice, because a person named Guy Fraser sent them an email complaining that an ad I placed offering a set of logbooks for sale was “suspicious, fraudulent, and illegal.”

    If it is, I would appreciate knowing Guy Fraser’s contact information so that an appropriate visit can be arranged.

    I suggest contacting Barnstormers and asking them to obtain proof. If they can't PROVE it's illegal, it's not. And it is Barnstormers claiming it's illegal acting on information received. Don't let them just claim it without proof.


    That being said, I know that back in the 80's and 90's it was rather commonplace and if not legal then accepted. I worked with a guy who rebuilt Cessna 150's for profit and he did that at least twice that I know of; each time with no trouble at all from the "authorities."


    Don't visit the informant. Although most of us still consider it the right thing to do, in today's legal climate, it's not a percentage move.

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    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedOwlAirfield View Post
    I suggest contacting Barnstormers and asking them to obtain proof. If they can't PROVE it's illegal, it's not. And it is Barnstormers claiming it's illegal acting on information received. Don't let them just claim it without proof.


    That being said, I know that back in the 80's and 90's it was rather commonplace and if not legal then accepted. I worked with a guy who rebuilt Cessna 150's for profit and he did that at least twice that I know of; each time with no trouble at all from the "authorities."


    Don't visit the informant. Although most of us still consider it the right thing to do, in today's legal climate, it's not a percentage move.
    No different than the FAA Aircraft Registry.......they take ALL documents at face value. If someone falsifies a bill of sale.......or puts a lien on an aircraft ( even without cause)....the FAA uses that info as if it were legitimate and leaves the affected parties to put out the fire.
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    If someone falsifies a bill of sale...

    It's a lot easier to create a (fake) bill of sale than it is to change the F.A.R.s. My suggestion was to get the restricting authority (Barnstormers) to illuminate the statutory justification. Forcing them to refer to a specific F.A.R. makes it a very simple resolution. Especially as in this case there is none that applies.

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    Ok, Barnstormers said today the person complained that selling logbooks specifically violated FAR 43.12 and 43.17.

    I’ve read them and I strongly disagree. Neither section has anything to do with selling logbooks, registrations, airplanes, or parts of airplanes.

    Does anyone care to comment?

  15. #15
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Call the FAA and ask them or call Dan of Dan's aircraft. The whole case was cussed and discussed here several years ago.
    Steve Pierce

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Not sure what your point is in calling this guy out. He is right. Like it or not the feds took an Airworthiness Certificate for it.
    https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...Dan-s-Aircraft
    Steve Pierce

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    Steve, I wasn’t selling an airplane built around a data plate. I wasn’t even selling a data plate. The two FAR sections noted have absolutely nothing to do with selling a set of logbooks. It discusses fraudulently altering documents and/or airplanes. How is selling logbooks “fraudulent” and/or how were they “altered” by me?

    If a guy who bought them decided to build an airplane around my logbooks then it would be his responsibility to show the plane complied with the regulations, not mine. If you sell a gun to a registered, licensed gun owner, are you responsible for the crimes he commits while using it?

    Minority Report style “pre-crime” enforcement still isn’t legal in the US, as far as I can tell. But then again, as you all know, I am frequently wrong.

    I am upset for two reasons: first, that a non-governmental individual incorrectly concluded I had committed a crime and second, that Barnstormers so willingly suspended my account without notice, investigation, or the opportunity to respond.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Your Logbooks alone from a legal standpoint are worth nothing. Should stay with the airplane you made experimental. Call the FAA and ask them about selling your Logbooks. They will tell you the FARs and their reasoning. I don't particularly agree with it all but not worth investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in a restoration for them to come back and do what they did in the thread in linked above.
    Steve Pierce

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    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Ok, Barnstormers said today the person complained that selling logbooks specifically violated FAR 43.12 and 43.17.

    I’ve read them and I strongly disagree. Neither section has anything to do with selling logbooks, registrations, airplanes, or parts of airplanes.

    Does anyone care to comment?
    I would assume Barnstormers is a private entity and can do, or not do, as they choose. Facebook, Twitter, etc. style of operation. Free ad?
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
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  20. #20
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    You sure do like to complain when you don’t get your way huh.


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    Absolutely. Squeaky wheels get the grease.

    It would be something altogether different if the complainant was from the FAA, instead of some 400 lb. putz bitching about something in which he has no special knowledge or expertise.
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    Raisedbywolves, BTW, how does providing factual background information and asking for educated opinions equate to an inappropriate complaint and/or not liking the answer?

    Since neither Barnstormers nor anyone here pointed out FAR language that prohibits selling logbooks, registration, and a C of A, I don’t see how I could possibly be unhappy with the results of my post, especially since Barnstormers apologized to me for their error and reinstated my account.

  23. #23
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    This may be the individual who thinks he is an FAR expert.
    Anybody know him? Google thinks he may be a pharmacist out of Ocala Florida.



    Personal Information
    GUY CHRISTOPHE FRASER

    10976 SW 62 Ter, Ocala, FL 34476

    4050 SE 139TH LN
    SUMMERFIELD FL 34491-8304
    County: MARION
    Country: USA

    Medical Information:
    Medical Class: Third Medical Date: 2/2016
    MUST WEAR CORRECTIVE LENSES.
    BasicMed Course Date: 10/18/2018 BasicMed CMEC Date: 10/18/2018

    Certificates
    PRIVATE PILOT
    Certificates Description
    Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT
    Date of Issue: 8/3/2003



    Ratings:
    PRIVATE PILOT
    AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
    Tell him his BasicMed is over due. The on line course has to be taken every two years. The medical exam only every four.
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  24. #24
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Raisedbywolves, BTW, how does providing factual background information and asking for educated opinions equate to an inappropriate complaint and/or not liking the answer?

    Since neither Barnstormers nor anyone here pointed out FAR language that prohibits selling logbooks, registration, and a C of A, I don’t see how I could possibly be unhappy with the results of my post, especially since Barnstormers apologized to me for their error and reinstated my account.
    Sorry I'm going to edit this post. I'm glad you got your account unlocked as I don't think barnstormers was right in locking your account for that. It's just a bit much to post the suspected rat's information. We should probably just move on since the original question has been answered.
    Last edited by Crash, Jr.; 07-24-2021 at 11:58 PM.
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    skukum12's Avatar
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    I see a padlock and a post by a moderator in the near future.
    "Always looking up"

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    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Your Logbooks alone from a legal standpoint are worth nothing. Should stay with the airplane you made experimental. Call the FAA and ask them about selling your Logbooks. They will tell you the FARs and their reasoning. I don't particularly agree with it all but not worth investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in a restoration for them to come back and do what they did in the thread in linked above.
    I guess you must have glazed over Steve’s post. What did your local fsdo say?


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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    I guess you must have glazed over Steve’s post. What did your local fsdo say?


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    Yeah, unless you owned or flew that specific Cub, there is no value beyond sentimental value to logbooks for a non existing airplane, an expired registration card, and an airworthiness certificate that is no longer in effect. A set of blank Cub log books would have considerably more value than these.


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    Steve, Wolves, Dga, in case I’m not being clear; where SPECIFICALLY does the FARs say that? Specifically.

    The sections of the FARs noted above have nothing to do with selling paperwork. In America, our laws must be clearly written in order to be enforced. What specific law prohibits selling paperwork?

    And even though that’s not what I’m doing, what specific law prohibits building a certified airplane from all new parts? There is a big difference between the FAA “frowning” on doing so, and it being illegal.
    Last edited by Paul Heinrich; 07-25-2021 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Clarity

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    This is like a circular firing squad.

  30. #30
    supercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mam90 View Post
    This is like a circular firing squad.
    Yup. If you miss just keep shooting till you run out of ammo.

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    Piper Logbooks

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Steve, Wolves, Dga, in case I’m not being clear; where SPECIFICALLY does the FARs say that? Specifically.

    The sections of the FARs noted above have nothing to do with selling paperwork. In America, our laws must be clearly written in order to be enforced. What specific law prohibits selling paperwork?

    And even though that’s not what I’m doing, what specific law prohibits building a certified airplane from all new parts? There is a big difference between the FAA “frowning” on doing so, and it being illegal.
    Never said there was a regulation prohibiting selling log books, expired registrations or airworthiness certificates that are no longer in effect. Just that they have no value.

    Now, building an airplane from a data plate, installing a data plate on an aircraft not “manufactured” by the TC holder or licensee would be a violation of 45.10. 45.13(c) prevents the removal or installation of a data plate without authorization of FAA and 45.13(d) says it can be removed and reinstalled for the purposes of maintenance. All that said, removing the data plate from one aircraft and installing it on another would be a violation of 45.13(d).

    Selling paperwork without a data plate and at least some part of the original airplane is worthless. Yes I know lots of folks have forged data plates, or built airplanes around data plates. Heck I built a Pilates PC-6 from a door frame and data plate. At least I had pieces of the original airplane, and my 337 was something like six pages of parts. New FAA policy on destroyed and scrapped airplanes came out last year, suggest you read Order 8100.19. Yeah, I know, it’s just policy, but policy you don’t want to get tied up in. Been there, done that, went all the way to my Senator to get satisfaction.

    I think the biggest issue would be if you are including a Bill of Sale with the alleged paperwork with the thought that the purchaser might construct an airplane from a forged data plate. The production of that data plate is the worst issue, as not only would that be a violation of Part 45, (up to $10,000 fine and 5 years) but is also a violation of Title 18 USC, a felony, (not sure what the penalty is for fraud)for which you get an all expense paid vacation on the federal government, and a room mate named Bubba!


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    Last edited by dgapilot; 07-25-2021 at 08:05 PM.
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    I have a set of logbooks that are quite valuable. Sold an Arrow for $35 grand, out of license and no logs. Had the buyer sign a document saying that if I ever found the logs they would be five grand more. He could buy them or not.

    Guess what? Found the logs. Then the FAA came up with an expensive spar inspection. I expect that someday I will get five grand for those logs.

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    Thanks for all the responses.

    dga, haven’t there been previous threads posted about owners legally buying data plates from the TC holder?

    And I’m not sure why you keep saying my current registration and my current airworthiness certificate is expired. Neither is expired and both are “in effect.” Together they represent a real, certified airplane which is duly registered and legal to fly with the FAA and it will remain so until it is de-registered. It matters not whether the airplane is in a million pieces which still need to be bought from the store and brought “airworthy” today, tomorrow, or 10 years from now; the paperwork remains valid.

    The airplane for the paperwork was neither scrapped nor destroyed so I can’t see how last year’s policy change applies.

    That they have no value to you is clear, but, thankfully, you’re not everybody.

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    Piper Logbooks

    If there is no airplane, the the registration is no longer in effect. As for the airworthiness certificate, read the terms and conditions, it is only in effect as long as the aircraft is maintained in accordance with Parts 21, 43, and 91. Again, if there is no airplane, it is not in effect.

    As for “buying” a data plate from the TC holder, in certain cases a TC holder will provide a replacement data plate (for a fee) provided to can prove to them that you possess the original aircraft. In the case of Piper, they require that you have the fuselage with the build tag that was originally used with that specific serial number aircraft. In multiple cases, they would not provide a data plate if the fuselage was replaced with a different Piper fuselage, or a PMA fuselage. Not sure what other manufacturers do, but that has been the Piper policy for quite a while.

    The issue of scrapped or destroyed is an FAA issue. I don’t agree with it. Under 49 USC, there is a definition of aircraft, and FAA hangs their hat on it. To be considered an aircraft, the item needs to be in a condition to fly, otherwise in their mind it is just parts. I went round and round with them for about 2 1/2 years, all the way to my Senator on this. Finally got a letter from the Executive Director of Flight Standards saying they will register my PA-16 once I provide photographic evidence that it is a complete and assembled aircraft capable of flight.

    Now, I have to ask, why would you sell logs, airworthiness, and registration (even if it is, as you say a valid registration, once transferred it is no longer valid) if you have a complete aircraft? What value would those items be to anyone if they don’t have the airplane? If your intent on selling is so someone could build a different aircraft but use your serial number, that would be a violation of 18 USC for fraud. Maybe not on your part for selling it, but on the buyers part.

    You never indicated if you were providing a Bill of Sale with the log books, registration and airworthiness. Personally i see no problem building an airplane around a LEGAL data plate, but as stated FAA takes a dim view of it. If the buyer files the Bill of Sale and an Application for Registration on a nun existing airplane, read the small print on the registration application! Fine of up to $500,000 and 5 years prison for violations of 18 USC 1001 and 46306. As the seller, you haven't done anything wrong, but the buyer may well bein big trouble if he files an application for registration.


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    Last edited by dgapilot; 07-27-2021 at 12:52 PM.
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    I guess I’m wrong again: you suggest if disassembled, has a sbroken part, and/or not in annual, that means no registration, revoked A/W certificate, and no airplane. Imagine how surprised everyone would be if that were true.

    Let’s agree we’ve beat this horse enough and move on to my next stupid question.

  36. #36
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    So Paul, how will you feel after you sell the paperwork, the buyer builds an airplane around it and the FAA pulls the Airworthiness and he ends up with a $200k pile of parts? We have given you things that have happened and you continue to come back and question what we say. I have seen it, can give you the owners contact and the FAA people who enforces it. Depends how deep you want to research trying to come to the answer you want to hear.
    Steve Pierce

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    Paul, you don't read very well. The Airworthiness Certificate is only in effect as long as the aircraft is maintained per 21, 43, and 91. The direct quote is "Unless sooner surrendered, revoked, or a termination date is otherwise established by the FAA, this airworthiness certificate is effective as long as the maintenance and alterations are performed in accordance with Parts 21, 43, and 91 of the Federal Aviation Regulations as appropriate, and the aircraft is registered with the United States." So if you have an aircraft that is broken, or out of annual, the airworthiness certificate is not in effect until those maintenance requirements have been accomplished.

    On the back of your registration it says "Title 49 USC 44103(c)(2) provides "A certificate of registration issued under this section is not evidence of ownership of aircraft in a proceeding in which ownership may be in issue." This Certificate must be signed and returned by the registered owner within 21 days when it is no longer in effect for any reason under 14 CFR 47.41(a)(1) through (7). Registration is canceled at the request of the owner for one of the following reasons and item (e) is the ownership of the aircraft has transferred.

    47.41 states "Each Certificate of Aircraft Registration, AC Form 8050-3, issued by the FAA under this subpart is effective, unless registration has ended by reason of having been revoked, canceled, expired, or the ownership is transferred, until the date upon which one of the following events occurs:
    • (1) Subject to the Convention on the International Recognition of Rights in Aircraft when applicable, the aircraft is registered under the laws of a foreign country.(2) The aircraft is totally destroyed or scrapped.
      (3) The holder of the certificate loses his U.S. citizenship.
      (4) 30 days have elapsed since the death of the holder of the certificate.
      (5) The owner, if an individual who is not a citizen of the United States, loses status as a resident alien, unless that person becomes a citizen of the United States at the same time.
      (6) If the owner is a corporation other than a corporation which is a citizen of the United States--

      • (i) The corporation ceases to be lawfully organized and doing business under the laws of the United States or any State thereof; or(ii) A period described in Sec. 47.9(b) ends and the aircraft was not based and primarily used in the United States during that period.


      (7) If the trustee in whose name the aircraft is registered--
      • (i) Loses U.S. citizenship;(ii) Loses status as a resident alien and does not become a citizen of the United States at the same time; or
        (iii) In any manner ceases to act as trustee and is not immediately replaced by another who meets the requirements of Sec. 47.17(c)."

        So as soon as ownership is transferred, the registration is canceled.

        I rest my case, once you sell your "stuff", ownership is transferred and the registration is no longer valid. Since the "aircraft isn't maintained per 21, 43, and 91, AND it is no longer registered, the airworthiness is no longer in effect.

        The new owner may file an application for registration, but that is where it gets sticky, as without the actual aircraft he is in violation of 18 USC. He can't even apply for registration unless you provide him with a Bill of Sale. Once that bill of sale is executed, the registration is no longer valid based on 47.41

        You asked for the legal explanation, there it is.



  38. #38

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    Just one more point, even if you were to convince Piper Aircraft Inc. to issue you a replacement data plate, that replacement still isn't any good as it does not comply with the certification basis for the airplane. It will have the incorrect manufacturer, and the incorrect Production Certificate number along with other issues. Of course don't tell FAA that, that just confuses the hell out of them!

  39. #39
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    Piper Logbooks

    Here’s an idea, why don’t you give the Milwaukee FSDO a call and settle this once and for all.

    Milwaukee Flight Standards District Offices
    4915 South Howell Avenue
    Milwaukee, WI 53207(414) 486-2920

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...iceareamke.pdf


    Let us know what they have to say.
    I’m assuming you built your exp pa-12 out of this certified one and have the paperwork left over. Might want to leave that part out.


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  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Here’s an idea, why don’t you give the Milwaukee FSDO a call and settle this once and for all.

    Milwaukee Flight Standards District Offices
    4915 South Howell Avenue
    Milwaukee, WI 53207(414) 486-2920

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...iceareamke.pdf


    Let us know what they have to say.
    I’m assuming you built your exp pa-12 out of this certified one and have the paperwork left over. Might want to leave that part out.


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    Yeah, I’d love to see the Amateur Built Fabrication and assembly checklist for that PA-12 Amateur Built to show major portion.


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