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Experimental LODA Requirements - We’re not happy until you’re not happy…

Up until I read that, I had never known that something called "primary category" existed. At first I thought they were talking about normal category needing a LODA.

Still a huge hassle. The FAA now says their prior guidance was wrong and if you want training in your experimental, you need to apply for a LODA. But it is electronic now, so we should all be happy.
 
But it is electronic now, so we should all be happy.

Still need someone to press the OK button on their end, There just might be 10 or 20K requests coming in for a very few people to read and respond too.
And do we need a new approval for each training session?
Maybe I do not understand the fine print but this is very far from promoting safety.
 
Guess we could always front your instructor for 30 or 40 meals at a time ;-)

And is this new policy that will affect many people just to keep the Collings Foundation from giving rides in warbirds?
 
I had no idea regarding the primary category as well. This is a continuation of the FAA’s disdain for grassroots general aviation, and further government overreach in an effort to control using safety as an excuse. We don’t need protected from ourselves by entities that have no interest in our safety and well being. We should all be responsible adults, capable of weighing and assessing our own risks. We fall further and further into the nanny state inch by inch each day with measures such as these. The FAA serves no real purpose, and is permeated by incapable bureaucrats, devoid of knowledge of anything related to aviation.
 
I just applied for a LODA to give instruction in my experimental aircraft and to give instruction to owners in their experimental aircraft. We'll see what happens. Worst case I'll have to keep instructing at the old rate of 2 beers per flight hour.

I had been considering applying for a LODA under the old interpretation (LODA needed to charge for use of the airplane) but I think that will have to wait until this mess settles down.

I assume the current FAA policy document 8900.1 (attached) should be consigned to the recycle bin.
 

Attachments

  • FAA on flight instruction 03_011_001.pdf
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The FAA’s definition of compensation is very broad, I’m sure receiving beer falls within their definition. I once saw a ruling that stated a low time pilot ferrying an aircraft for free was being compensated by building flighttime.
 
Guess I won’t charge at all for flight instruction. It’ll cost you extra for ground instruction though.
 
I once saw a ruling that stated a low time pilot ferrying an aircraft for free was being compensated by building flighttime.
Never thought about not logging flight time would keep you out of trouble.
 
I once saw a ruling that stated a low time pilot ferrying an aircraft for free was being compensated by building flighttime.

FAA took the position that anyone volunteer towing for a gliding club was receiving compensation in the form flight of time and a commercial certificate was required. It took a lot a back and forth between Soaring Society of America and FAA to get that resolved. At one point FAA was going to allow private pilots to tow as long as they didn't log the flight time! I couldn't stand the bullshit and got a restricted commercial (later became unrestricted).
 
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FAA took the position that anyone volunteer towing for a gliding club was receiving compensation in the form flight time and a commercial certificate was required. It took a lot a back and forth between Soaring Society of America and FAA to get that resolved. At one point FAA was going to allow private pilots to tow as long as they didn't log the flight time! I couldn't stand the bullshit and got a restricted commercial (later became unrestricted).

Ya, over 40 years in commercial aviation dealing with this kind of stuff convinced me to take early retirement at 59. Then I did some helicopter flying part time for fun, but only did the power line stuff because it was part 91. Now I just fly for me, and try to stay under the radar - figuratively and literally.
 
I suspected when an airline pilot/airline executive was named to be the FAA administrator the already shaky FAA would soon forget and discourage general aviation. This is just one step in that direction. No ferry permits by A&Ps was another.
 
Never thought about not logging flight time would keep you out of trouble.

Way back in the late 90's early 00's I got to know most of the guys at the local FAA in a semi - social - friendly - not - really - professional kinda set up. Several of them told me never to log anything but the required currency stuff - since I wasn't worried about "time building" at the time. They said that if it wasn't in the book they couldn't write a violation for it. They also told me that when asked by them for my logbook I had 48 hours to produce it, so I could always add the recent stuff from memory during that time.

I'm not sure if all of that is still valid - or if the insurance folks would feel the same way - but that was what I was told - unofficially of course.

So maybe logging everything all the time might not be right for everyone.
 
So they revised the process to stay legal after a judge embarrassed them. It looks simple enough to do. I guess I’ll use my Cessna if I have to pay for a BFR, but not til after I get a ferry permit to get it to town for an annual. Did that last year, too. Easy peasy. As for training in my Exp? I have lots of volunteers for that. No money required.
 
The FAA’s definition of compensation is very broad, I’m sure receiving beer falls within their definition. I once saw a ruling that stated a low time pilot ferrying an aircraft for free was being compensated by building flighttime.

Yes, this absolutely happened. I remember when it did. The guy was a Private Pilot. I used to ferry a friend’s Stearman and WACO for expenses. I figured I’d never get time in them any other way. I was a Commercial pilot at the time. He did buy me a nice Bose headset as a gift.
 
There are two reasons to train. 1-to satisfy FAA or insurer requirements. I can do that in my Cessna easily enough. The 2nd reason is to improve my skills in my plane. I don’t need log entries for that. I expect I’ll request a LODA in the coming months just to have it. With a 48 month certificate life the problem is solved for a useful period of time. Maybe I’ll time it with my BasicMed exam. I don’t see sending an email request as much or a burden. My days are filled with problems and solutions. This one seems pretty easy to manage.
 
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I am curious what brought up the recent talk about this rule, it looks like it has been in the books for quite some time.
 
There is more to this whole mess than just whether the owner and/or instructor in an EX/Limited/etc category airplane has to get a LODA.

The foundation of flight instruction forever has been that the Flight Instructor in any airplane is not of necessity serving as Pilot in Command. Therefore, an instructor who does not hold a medical certificate can flight instruct, as long as the "other pilot", ie: the pilot receiving instruction, is fully qualified to act as PIC. So, a CFI with Basic Med or no medical at all, can provide things like Flight Reviews, insurance checkouts, etc, as long as the other person is legal to fly the plane.

And, a CFI with Basic Med has been able to instruct in almost any capacity, including primary instruction, instrument instruction, etc.

Till now, that is. The Court case that devolved from that Collings accident has effectively changed that definition of a CFI, to one as a "commercial" or flying for hire category.

Which means, if this sticks, ANY CFI will be required to hold a Class 2 medical to instruct.

That's going to remove a lot of very experienced flight instructors from the field, frankly.

Try to find someone who has a bunch of experience in a particular flavor of old airplane, and often times the only folks who meet the insurance requirements don't hold a medical.

Time will tell where this goes, but it has the potential to force a major change, and it doesn't seem that the FAA is interested in defending the status quo.

MTV
 
Yup, trying to decide if I go back to a special issuance 2nd class after being basic med for a couple years now. This really sucks!


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What if you charge for ground instruction and fly for free if you don’t have a medical? This about sums up my recent experience with the faa. They are going to make outlaws out of all of us


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What if you charge for ground instruction and fly for free if you don’t have a medical? This about sums up my recent experience with the faa. They are going to make outlaws out of all of us


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There've been all sorts of attempts at "work arounds" when it comes to flying for compensation. Ferry pilots trying to build time, with a private certificate seem to figure regularly there, and several have been bit by the FAA.

I flight instruct and ask the "student" to donate to a Foundation that offers flight training scholarships. Makes no difference when it comes to the definition.....still POTENTIALLY a "commercial operation".

MTV
 
Ferry pilots trying to build time, with a private certificate seem to figure regularly there, and several have been bit by the FAA.
What is the difference between "Ferry pilots trying to build time" and "Ferry pilots flying for the fun of it"?

I accumulated a lot of hours in a lot of different types of airplanes, Not once was any of it for any other reason than flying for the fun of it. In the end, it helped finding jobs, but finding jobs and getting flying "tickets" was not the purpose.
 
What is the difference between "Ferry pilots trying to build time" and "Ferry pilots flying for the fun of it"?

FAA don't know if they are coming or going as this recent change of policy demonstrates. At one time during the gliding club private tow pilot fiasco FAA changed from "can't log the time" to "can log the time but can't use towards any more advanced rating".

I never relied on income from instructing, or towing, or flying jumpers but, at that time, I kept a class 2 and a commercial to be "squeaky clean". Now I'm retired from an aerospace career I need flying income even less. What I can't do on basic med isn't likely to happen. With nearly 6,000 hours in my log books, logging an extra hour is no compensation or credit for anything. I fly simply because I enjoy flying.
 
What is the difference between "Ferry pilots trying to build time" and "Ferry pilots flying for the fun of it"?

I accumulated a lot of hours in a lot of different types of airplanes, Not once was any of it for any other reason than flying for the fun of it. In the end, it helped finding jobs, but finding jobs and getting flying "tickets" was not the purpose.

Pete,
the cases I’m familiar with, the FAA determined that actually logging the hours of a ferry flight was “compensation”.

Go figure.

MTV
 
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