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Adsb and transponder

RaisedByWolves

RaisedByWolves

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Hey guys,
I have a customer with a champ and a 85-8. He is dead set on installing a transponder with adsb. I know why, I keep telling him to leave it out.
Is it legal to install without a charging source? Sure would like to find something saying you need a charging source to discourage the install. I did see in the regs saying if you have an engine driven power source hand you have a transponder you always need one. But nothing about this


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Nothing prohibits powering an ADS-B system with battery only. But caution the customer that the moment the system goes off line due to a low battery, he is in violation of the FAR requiring the system to be operational at all times. Note that a low battery is NOT a breakdown/malfunction.

Web
 
wireweinie said:
Nothing prohibits powering an ADS-B system with battery only. But caution the customer that the moment the system goes off line due to a low battery, he is in violation of the FAR requiring the system to be operational at all times. Note that a low battery is NOT a breakdown/malfunction.

Web
Click to expand...

That’s what I told him, but how’s the saying go, the customer is always right?


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A transponder and ADSB-out only helps the other guy or ATC. There is no benefit whatsoever to the airplane which is carrying the equipment, other than the other airplane which has ADSB-in and the pilot is not looking out the window. I doubt very much the Champ will be wanting to fly into Logan where the equipment is required.
 
That poor Champ. I guess it can be uninstalled down the road if he wants to sell it.

Seems like money would be better spent adding flashing lights if he is worried about getting hit.
 
I don't agree that ADS-B Out has no benefit to the equipped airplane. As Skywagon8A himself points out, it is a benefit to the equipped plane if OTHER airplanes "see" him and are able to "avoid" him, whether he is aware of it or not.

Having said that, if I owned a plane that did not have (and has never had) an engine-driven generator/alternator, I would have to think long and hard about installing ADS-B Out, given the recent FAA use of ADS-B in enforcement actions. As someone pointed out, running out of battery power and causing the ADS-B to be disabled might well be considered by the FAA to be "intentional disabling to avoid detection" and result in revocation of certificates... These days, it is apparently enough for the FAA inspector to simply think you "might" have done it intentionally, and they will slap you down - hard.

I've always been a HUGE advocate of ADS-B Out installations. The FAA's recent actions, however, have dampened my enthusiasm dramatically, even though I have personally avoided at least one potential mid-air (and quite possibly two) because I had ASD-B installed. I might have been able to see the other airplane in time, or I might not... But I certainly won't see the FAA coming for me if/when I have an issue with my ADS-B installation. I always thought the guys who talked about nefarious uses of ADS-B data by the FAA were a little paranoid. Now I've seen evidence that they actually are after us! (Tongue only slightly in cheek...)

I hope the alphabet groups are responding to the FAA with the same degree of concern that I feel. I've certainly written to them to express my concerns about it!
 
I have forgotten to turn on my transponder here in class G airspace. If I take off and it is off, I am afraid to turn it on because of the rule.
 
My radio, transponder, ADS-B and GPS are all wired through a radio master and left on. If the master is on, all of it is on.
 
Real fine but my Garmin 335 doesn't work that way. The garmin radio powers up but you must turn on the transponder.
Tom Jones said:
My radio, transponder, ADS-B and GPS are all wired through a radio master and left on. If the master is on, all of it is on.
Click to expand...
 
Eddie, check the manual, you can configure the 335 so that it does work that way.
 
If the champ has a -8.....there’s no engine driven electrical system. He’s grandfathered in and could land at Logan without it.
Not sure why anyone would install it in an antique with no electric system.
 
As usual I’m betting ADS-B’s biggest critics don’t have experience with it. Having ADS-B Out improves ABS-B In. Do some research about being an ADS-B “client.”

I’ve known guys with no electrics airplanes who’ve added wind generators and solar panels so they could add radios. Are they silly? Why would anyone judge them for doing what they want in THEIR airplanes? So it goes with ADS-B. I have several friends who use it and like it and aren’t particularly concerned with privacy issues. Their choice. I have it in one plane but not the other. My choice. There’s a lot of good in ADS-B.
 
wireweinie said:
Nothing prohibits powering an ADS-B system with battery only. But caution the customer that the moment the system goes off line due to a low battery, he is in violation of the FAR requiring the system to be operational at all times. Note that a low battery is NOT a breakdown/malfunction.

Web
Click to expand...

It seems like what you are saying is that the FAR's require the system to be operational at all times so to logic then is that if its installed and the system failed then a violation has occurred.

Is the requirement to have it "operational" at all times, or operate it in transmit mode at all times? FAR 91.225 (f)

And if it's operated in transmit mode, what does that mean? Does it means that the operator places switches are in the proper position and leaves them there? And if the power supply is depleted but the operator has the unit in transmit mode, then how has a regulation been violated? It seems to me like the installation and failure mode poses no risk of a violation.
 
In a nutshell, if you have an ADS-B out system installed, it must be transmitting (transmit mode). The reg makes allowances for operation if the system is inoperative. Inoperative means its broken. Even as anti fed as I am, I couldn't claim that not having a charged battery on board means my system is broken. Maybe make that claim if it happens in mid flight, but slim chances if they come around asking questions.

Web
 
I was more curious from a legality standpoint. Can you legally install without a power generation source. I would imagine the battery would have to be aviation and mounted in an approved mount as well.

Thanks


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Yes you can install an ADS-B system powered by battery only. It's a CAR3 aircraft so just use your head when selecting the battery and be sure to use proper sized breakers for circuit protection. I'd recommend a gel cell battery with enough reserve to power the system at least through a full load of fuel.

Web
 
I've been thinking alot about ADS-B in non electric system antique aircraft.
Its not needed to enter the airspace that requires it, and the regs make it one way. By that I mean once its been installed in the aircraft, you technically can't go back and remove it. It must also be powered on everytime the aircraft takes flight.
The clinch on that is that there is no electrical system installed, so technically no avionics can be installed indefinitely with no power source. That is one reason why they were carved out of the ADS-B requirements. It is not feasible to require all antique aircraft to change to electrical systems (and if an electrical system is installed....it can't be uninstalled to remove the ADS-B) if they want to operate in the class B veils.
Remember an electrical system by definition with the FAA is powered by the Powerplant. Wind driven generators and batteries do not count as an electrical system.

As far as understanding the benefits of ADS-B...I own 2 aircraft. I own a 182 equipped with ADS-B out, and a Cub without it. I don't see the benefits of it in my 182 that would sway me into putting it in the Cub. I have a GDL ADS-B in box that I bought for the Cub, I can't remember the last time I bothered to bring it in the Cub.
 
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Lots of folks are/will be fans of ADS-B....................until they aren't :behead:
 
How about the number that have it and choose to not turn it on?

My view is that the system CAN make life more dangerous. When operating in areas where it's not required, the pilot can get fixated on watching the screen when not all aircraft in the area have ADS-B on board. Also, even when operating in areas where having ADS-B is mandatory, getting a visual on approaching aircraft is more important than the screen in avoiding a midair collision.
Maybe users have missed the point of the system, in that it is there to draw your attention to an approaching aircraft so that you can see it quicker. The screen cannot replace your eyes.

Web
 
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I had a guy tell me he doesn’t look for traffic anymore. He has adsb in and out. I said what about planes that don’t have it. He looked confused. He said everyone should have it. I told
Him where you fly it’s not required so there may be planes with out it. He said everyone should have it. I don’t look for traffic. They fly among us


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stewartb said:
You? Have you had it and removed it? I’m curious how many have had it and removed it?
Click to expand...

You legally can not remove it once it has been installed. You can replace it with a different system, but can not remove it from the aircraft.
I would probably take it out of the Cessna if I legally could. My father installed it....and since he is no longer flying in these blue skies its an easy decision to get rid of it, especially in Alaska.
 
md11freighter said:
You legally can not remove it once it has been installed. You can replace it with a different system, but can not remove it from the aircraft.
I would probably take it out of the Cessna if I legally could. My father installed it....and since he is no longer flying in these blue skies its an easy decision to get rid of it, especially in Alaska.
Click to expand...
Where does it say you cannot remove an ADS-B system?
 
There is nothing in 91.225 that says ADSB equipment can’t be removed once installed. Any equipment (except that required by 91.205 for the condition of flight and/or required by the TC) can be installed or removed at will, with the appropriate data and documentation. The only consequence of removing ADSB or a transponder is limiting the airspace you are permitted to fly in.


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The “staring at a screen” comment is tired rhetoric and the basis of my post that the ADS-B critics haven’t used it.
 
It appears that no one has mentioned the distinction between ADS-B In and ADS-B Out. There is no regulatory requirements for "ADS-B In" which is the system that provides "You" with awareness of proximate traffic. ADS-B In can be implemented by an inexpensive portable system and can be put in the aircraft, taken out of the aircraft, turned on, or turned off, as required by the user.

I have flown with ZAON PCAS, FLARM, and with permanent and portable ADS-B In systems. I'll take all the help I can get to avoid a mid-air but none of these systems ever replaced looking out of the window. I used to fly an Aeronca 11BC Chief (no electrical system and no transponder) under KPHX mode C veil. If ADS-B had been available then I would have carried a portable ADS-B In system.
 
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I’ve used In with a GDL39-3D for several years. Compared to my Cub that also has Out service? The traffic component of ADS-B is better in the Cub. That’s part of my decision to keep it even though the requirement for always on irritates me. I understand why some guys may not want to be tracked and therefore are reluctant to install it. I don’t understand why anyone would criticize the features. It’s a great tool. I wish I could select when to use it but that topic has been settled.

On a scuzzy day have any of you used your GPS obstacle feature to locate radio towers? Did you fixate on the screen? The reasonable answer is yes, and no. Another useful tool. Same screen in my planes.

For guys who do use ADS-B traffic. Has your screen ever painted a target that you didn’t see, or hadn’t seen yet? Has your screen ever painted a target that you already saw? Has your screen ever failed to paint a target that you had a clear view of? The likely answers are yes, yes, and yes. The latter reinforces that not all airplanes are painted by ADS-B and reinforces the requirement to look outside. The former illustrates why some appreciate having ADS-B. I don’t know how other systems work but with Garmin I can instantly see where the target is relative to me, what his altitude is relative to mine (and his altitude trend whether climbing or descending), and what his heading is. And I can declutter the screen so it only shows relevant proximity. Very useful info available at a glance. Garmin will even highlight the ones you need to pay attention to. That allows me to use my eyes better.
 
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I don't think any of us would dispute the benefits of ADS-B. It was implemented as a safety item for traffic separation .....which could have been accomplished without the
owners/pilots information broadcast. Why do you suppose they included that requirement? Certainly not for safety reasons. Why then?
 
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