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Thread: Sensenich Ground Adjustable Prop

  1. #41
    skysigns's Avatar
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    thank you Steve looking forward to getting mine

  2. #42

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    Just finished up my Recurrent DER training today and had a class on the new Part 23 regulations. Of note is that the Sensenich STC SP04490AT was issued under these new regulations. For all you guys that are thinking of using this STC, read the limitation section carefully if you have more than 2 seats in your Cub! The STC reclassifies the PA-18-150 (specific serial numbers as modified with 180HP engines) as a Class 1 low speed aircraft as defined in 14 CFR 23.2005. A Class1 aircraft is one with a maximum seating configuration of 0-1 passengers. If your airplane has more than 1 passenger seat, this STC is not applicable to your aircraft. Under 23.2400 paragraph (b), only Class 1 Low Speed aircraft can have the engine and propeller certified as part of the airframe (the approach Sensenich used for this STC). Just figured I'd throw this out there before someone paid $7k for a prop they can't use legally.

    A lot of guys were asking about the possibility of putting this prop on Short Wing Pipers. Until Sensenich goes for a TC on the prop rather than just a PMA, all the short wing Pipers with more than 1 passenger seat are out of luck. Maybe some pressure needs to be put on Sensenich to actually go for a TC rather than just PMA. I know lots of folks that would but these props if they were legal to install.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Just finished up my Recurrent DER training today and had a class on the new Part 23 regulations. Of note is that the Sensenich STC SP04490AT was issued under these new regulations. For all you guys that are thinking of using this STC, read the limitation section carefully if you have more than 2 seats in your Cub! The STC reclassifies the PA-18-150 (specific serial numbers as modified with 180HP engines) as a Class 1 low speed aircraft as defined in 14 CFR 23.2005. A Class1 aircraft is one with a maximum seating configuration of 0-1 passengers. If your airplane has more than 1 passenger seat, this STC is not applicable to your aircraft. Under 23.2400 paragraph (b), only Class 1 Low Speed aircraft can have the engine and propeller certified as part of the airframe (the approach Sensenich used for this STC). Just figured I'd throw this out there before someone paid $7k for a prop they can't use legally.

    A lot of guys were asking about the possibility of putting this prop on Short Wing Pipers. Until Sensenich goes for a TC on the prop rather than just a PMA, all the short wing Pipers with more than 1 passenger seat are out of luck. Maybe some pressure needs to be put on Sensenich to actually go for a TC rather than just PMA. I know lots of folks that would but these props if they were legal to install.
    Interesting! The devil is in the details. Thank you.
    N1PA
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  4. #44

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    That is interesting. I thought they were going for an STC on 12s too. Would the rear seat in a 12 be considered 2 passenger seats or just one?

    Is there any news on the O-320 18 STC?
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  5. #45
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    This is the STC SP04490AT for installing the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on certain PA-18-150s which have been modified to use the Lycoming 180 hp 0-360 or IO-360. https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgstc.nsf/0/9053fb048f04e38f862586b8004a6f0c/$FILE/SP04490AT.pdf

    In reading the limitations, if the -18 had previously been modified for a third seat I would make a note on the 337 and in the log book that the third seat approval was no longer applicable while this propeller was installed.

    If an approval were to be pursued for a suitable PA-12, it would be simple enough to limit the passenger seat to just one passenger.
    N1PA
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  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    This is the STC SP04490AT for installing the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on certain PA-18-150s which have been modified to use the Lycoming 180 hp 0-360 or IO-360. https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgstc.nsf/0/9053fb048f04e38f862586b8004a6f0c/$FILE/SP04490AT.pdf

    In reading the limitations, if the -18 had previously been modified for a third seat I would make a note on the 337 and in the log book that the third seat approval was no longer applicable while this propeller was installed.
    Agreed, remove the 3rd seat STC. How about the 4 place wide fuselage, no way around that that I can see.


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  7. #47

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    Sensenich Ground Adjustable Prop

    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    This is the STC SP04490AT for installing the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on certain PA-18-150s which have been modified to use the Lycoming 180 hp 0-360 or IO-360. https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgstc.nsf/0/9053fb048f04e38f862586b8004a6f0c/$FILE/SP04490AT.pdf

    In reading the limitations, if the -18 had previously been modified for a third seat I would make a note on the 337 and in the log book that the third seat approval was no longer applicable while this propeller was installed.

    If an approval were to be pursued for a suitable PA-12, it would be simple enough to limit the passenger seat to just one passenger.
    Donít think that would work on the PA-12, the TCDS clearly identifies it as a 3 place airplane for both land plane and sea plane.


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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Agreed, remove the 3rd seat STC. How about the 4 place wide fuselage, no way around that that I can see.
    Same procedure, place a two seat limitation on the airplane. Remove the back seat.
    N1PA

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Don’t think that would work on the PA-12, the TCDS clearly identifies it as a 3 place airplane for both land plane and sea plane.
    Sure, unless otherwise modified. This is an STC. There isn't anything that says an STC can not mandate the removal of some other item.
    N1PA

  10. #50

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    I think to comply, you would need to put on the 337 that the 3rd seat STC was removed, it isnít how many seats are installed, it is how many are certified. For the PA-12, you could do an STC to make it a 2 place airplane, then do the STC to install the prop.


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  11. #51
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Why would you need to do two separate STCs? Couldn't the propeller STC state that the airplane was limited to two persons?
    N1PA

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    It could.


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  13. #53

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    In a -18 the STC is for a 3rd seat but most just use it for the increased baggage capacity and rarely if ever does anyone sit back there, could you remove the "seat" but keep the 180 pound capacity and still be ok with the prop STC?

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    I havenít seen the STC so I canít comment. I think Iíd go back to the STC holder and see if they can do an option on the STC to have a third seat, OR a 180 lb baggage, but you canít have both configurations approved. This would be best to discuss with the certifying Aircraft Certification Office for both the third seat STC and the prop STC.


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  15. #55
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Legally as far as I know the "3rd seat" stc's are all primarily a 180lb baggage area stc. This seems like one of those "don't ask don't tell" grey areas in legality.
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  16. #56
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    checking to see if prop can be installed on a 1953 pa18A S/N 2495 with CC 180 hp stc installed

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    Quote Originally Posted by skysigns View Post
    checking to see if prop can be installed on a 1953 pa18A S/N 2495 with CC 180 hp stc installed
    That would take a Field Approval or a model change as the 1953 PA-18A was a PA-18A-135. I'm currently dealing with the same issue for a 1953 PA-18A-135 and the instal of the WipAir 2000 lb. gross weight increase. That STC is also specific to a PA-18-150. Whats interesting about the Sencsenich STC is it does not include PA-18A-150's or PA-18S-150 models. This should backlog the FAA field approval process about 3 years.

  18. #58

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    I put an (pre) order in for this prop in April for my -150 and havenít heard any updates on the STC status or production. Ident if you have any data.


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    Prop is approved for 180hp. They did this with the intent that it would be a quick and easy process to get approval for 150hp. FAA said otherwise.
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  20. #60
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    I am working with the Sensenich engineers and planning on flight testing early December for the 150 and 160 hp
    Steve Pierce

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  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I am working with the Sensenich engineers and planning on flight testing early December for the 150 and 160 hp
    Make sure they include the A models!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by daedgerton View Post
    Make sure they include the A models!!!!
    And would be nice if they included early model PA18's with 150/160 engines. I suspect the A models and early models would require further flight testing and/or more FAA hoops to hop through which is why they are left off the AML's of many STC's.

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    I have an early A model that I would gladly volunteer to be a test bed!

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    Is the A model approved with the 180?


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    Quote Originally Posted by EdH View Post
    Is the A model approved with the 180?


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    Only applicable to PA-18-150, and limited to select serial numbers ( the same serial numbers listed on the TCDS for PA-18-150)


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  26. #66
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    Not to derail the thread, but on the topic of A models, Can you do a Wip 2K MGW increase on a PA-18A-150?

  27. #67

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    I put an experimental one on my 150 cub and I like how it pulls. With a pin setting 2 I am still only getting 2300 rpm wot. The carbon fiber prop pulls hard, spins up faster and when I pull the throttle back the cub really slows down. So far I am enjoying the prop, any comments on the not so high rpms and has anyone else experienced high oil temps? Last Sunday we went on a 90 minute flight and hit 242 on oil temp. Ordered new baffle, mine are not very good. Any other suggestions on this oil temp issue?
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  28. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Only applicable to PA-18-150, and limited to select serial numbers ( the same serial numbers listed on the TCDS for PA-18-150)


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    That sucks. Would a deviation or field approval be easy to get for an A?


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  29. #69
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    Sensenich is working to include the lower hp Super Cubs when upgrade to 320 or 360 engines as the A models. They didn't know Super Cubs when they started this quest. The goal now after the STC is approved is to Type Certify the prop so others can STC it on other models.
    Steve Pierce

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  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Sensenich is working to include the lower hp Super Cubs when upgrade to 320 or 360 engines as the A models. They didn't know Super Cubs when they started this quest. The goal now after the STC is approved is to Type Certify the prop so others can STC it on other models.
    Steve,
    Since we know that basically the -18 and -18A are very similar, be certain Sensenich places both T.C. 1A2 and T.C. AR-7 on their application for the STC. This should help later on when more people want to make installations.
    N1PA
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  31. #71
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    Is it reasonable to think that these lighter props put less strain on the crank? Particularly in startup.


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    Quote Originally Posted by daedgerton View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but on the topic of A models, Can you do a Wip 2K MGW increase on a PA-18A-150?
    Yes. The PA18A-150 is on the AML of the STC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Sensenich is working to include the lower hp Super Cubs when upgrade to 320 or 360 engines as the A models. They didn't know Super Cubs when they started this quest. The goal now after the STC is approved is to Type Certify the prop so others can STC it on other models.
    Getting a TC on the prop will be the key to approval on PA-12, PA-16, PA-20 and PA-22. Without a prop TC it would be forever limited to 2 place airplanes.


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  34. #74
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    Oil temp issues.
    A friend ran the Sensenich GA prop on a -12 0-360 in the summer out west and had temp issues a total of about 75 hours and with different pitch settings. He changed from Aero Shell 100 W+ to Phillips 20-50 and this made a big difference in the temps.
    Then through some more investigation he has the Crosswinds STC and they use a 7 fin oil cooler where the Top Cub uses a 9 fin oil cooler and between the two planes the 9 fin runs much cooler than the 7 fin here back east both in the summer and the cooler temps 15-20 degrees.
    His baffling needs some attention too!

    These are what we have seen with the GA prop and the oil cooler differences.
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  35. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by supercrow View Post
    I don't know where the rumor comes from. Maybe is is true for some but hasn't been for me. Standard nosebowl and 10-1 compression. I should note that I purposely used a J-3 boot cowl when I built the crow 25 yrs ago because I think getting hot air out of the big side gills is important. Whether that actually makes a big difference or not I don't know but I ran the whirlwind last summer up to 85-90deg ambient air with cht (all 4 in the 380 to 390 deg. range) and the sensenich in the early fall up to 80 degs ambient with same results. 370 to 380 degs. Should note that my borer 82-43 ran in the same ranges. Hope I am not adding confusion to the thread. The instrument is the CGR 30P. I run a left rear baffle oil cooler position and the rear cyls run within 5 to 10 degs of each other. I did build an intake shroud and leaned the cooler back 25 yrs ago and lowered the oil temp about 15 degs with that mod. Air fills the shroud before entering the cooler for full frontal effect instead of feeding the cooler through a 3 inch hole in the baffle.
    Hello, Supercrow,

    This is likely off topic for this thread, but your left rear baffle oil cooler comments really lit up some hope for me. At rebuild of my 0-320 in a PA-14 several years ago, we ditched the old heavy front cooler and associated long runs of hose in favor of the lighter rear one. I was warned that occasionally higher oil temps result. Sure enough, on the rare "hot" days here in south-central Alaska (aloft temps over 70F) I have to dance with my flight variables - leave the heavy stuff at home, climb to cooler temps, run rich, or stop somewhere scenic for a cool-off - in order to keep oil temps under red line. (Only happens once or twice a summer for me.) My questions to local "experts" has produced a smattering of ideas - repositioning, a top-of cowl intake vent, a dedicated intake on the nose bowl directed through some flexible heat duct, and more - without any confidence evoking consensus and with plenty of firmly believed warnings about why the other ideas won't work or are damaging.

    Would you be so kind as to give me a detail description or even a picture of what you are describing with your "shroud" and "leaned back" language? All your thoughts and opinions on it would be welcome. If we are not allowed to deviate from the topic of this thread, then maybe we could go the private message route. Other folks can chime in too. Even if not sacrosanct (As John Hattie would say, "There is no such thing as immaculate perception."), opinions are worth something since everyone knows something I don't!
    Thanks,
    Steve
    Last edited by salex; 11-15-2021 at 02:01 AM. Reason: typos

  36. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorguns View Post
    Oil temp issues.
    A friend ran the Sensenich GA prop on a -12 0-360 in the summer out west and had temp issues a total of about 75 hours and with different pitch settings. He changed from Aero Shell 100 W+ to Phillips 20-50 and this made a big difference in the temps.
    Then through some more investigation he has the Crosswinds STC and they use a 7 fin oil cooler where the Top Cub uses a 9 fin oil cooler and between the two planes the 9 fin runs much cooler than the 7 fin here back east both in the summer and the cooler temps 15-20 degrees.
    His baffling needs some attention too!

    These are what we have seen with the GA prop and the oil cooler differences.
    How did the prop perform on “your friends” plane compared to a metal club? I’m assuming that the weight off the nose in a -12 is where the magic happens.

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by salex View Post
    Hello, Supercrow,

    This is likely off topic for this thread, but your left rear baffle oil cooler comments really lit up some hope for me. At rebuild of my 0-320 in a PA-14 several years ago, we ditched the old heavy front cooler and associated long runs of hose in favor of the lighter rear one. I was warned that occasionally higher oil temps result. Sure enough, on the rare "hot" days here in south-central Alaska (aloft temps over 70F) I have to dance with my flight variables - leave the heavy stuff at home, climb to cooler temps, run rich, or stop somewhere scenic for a cool-off - in order to keep oil temps under red line. (Only happens once or twice a summer for me.) My questions to local "experts" has produced a smattering of ideas - repositioning, a top-of cowl intake vent, a dedicated intake on the nose bowl directed through some flexible heat duct, and more - without any confidence evoking consensus and with plenty of firmly believed warnings about why the other ideas won't work or are damaging.

    Would you be so kind as to give me a detail description or even a picture of what you are describing with your "shroud" and "leaned back" language? All your thoughts and opinions on it would be welcome. If we are not allowed to deviate from the topic of this thread, then maybe we could go the private message route. Other folks can chime in too. Even if not sacrosanct (As John Hattie would say, "There is no such thing as immaculate perception."), opinions are worth something since everyone knows something I don't!
    Thanks,
    Steve
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  38. #78
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    I haven't seen any oil temp changes all summer with the one I have been involved with.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

  39. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    How did the prop perform on “your friends” plane compared to a metal club? I’m assuming that the weight off the nose in a -12 is where the magic happens.
    Really good the 43 pitch would static about 2500 as he recalls, the ground roll TO was under 200 feet and the top end was an increase of 5-10 over the 8242 Borer.

    This would keep temps down and controllable. When running the 46 pitch the TO runs were about the same and the cruise was 10-15 faster but this was before the oil changes and he would get temp issues if the OAT was over 75 degrees, when he got out west the temp issues came into play. So back to the 43-44 pitch, running at 85 MPH or faster made a big difference too.

    LOVE the prop and the FAST spool up, waiting for the certified version to go on! The prop to get!!!! Very easy to set up for pitch changes.

    Could take 20+ off the nose and 12# out of the tail for the same general CG effect.
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  40. #80
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    Called to order mine today… 14-16 week wait

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