Super cub Flight instruction ideas

redheadcubpilot said:

Had a deep discussion about the below idea with a co-worker earlier this week and wanted everyone else’s opinion on the topic.

Theoretical idea for discussion:

Opportunity arises to establish a basic, advanced “bush”, and mountain flying tailwheel flight school using a single super cub.

What consideration/ modifications would you look for when purchasing a super cub with the intent of using it for above outlined instruction?

My list includes:
35” bush wheels
baby bush wheel
borer prop
good intercom
2000 mgw increase
low time engine/fabric

I have read through the forum threads on instructing and haven’t seen one exclusively about setting up an aircraft used for instructing.

Thought it might be a good brainstorming session, thanks

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SJ said:

One thing to consider: Cool looking bush planes attract people more than a Citabria on 8:50s. 20 years ago, I put my humble flapless tango cub on 31" tires and it rented non-stop for tailwheel endorsements and other fun stuff. Flash forward, we have a 180HP PA-18 on 31" tires for the work we do here. It kills two birds with one stone - people get to check the backcountry training box and the "cool bushplane" box.

Before everybody jumps on me, I agree that the skills needed can largely be taught in a 172 - but what fun would that be?

Regarding the back seat of the super cub? I'm guessing I have about 2000 or more hours back there in all kinds of situations... feels pretty comfy to me!

sj

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behindpropellers said:

What percentage of pilots will show up to your school that can land within +-50 feet of a touchdown point when they get there?

Lots of pilots buying every whizzbang gadget but not willing to put in the time to hone their skills.

Tim

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cubdriver2 said:

Mike you've flown some of the coolest slow and wet flying machines there are. You should get some back seat Stearman time. You'd be amazed at how quickly you'll adapt to not having any forward visibility. Best view there is is a full slip right down till the wing almost drags in the dirt then peripheral vision is what keeps it straight. Not saying this will help you not run over a log in the bush but you might enjoy a new flying challenge. Back seat expands your tool bag

Glenm

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bob turner said:

Wanna try blind? Try the front seat of a UPF-7 with a cowled engine (really a ZPF-7).

I swore that I would never instruct anybody else ever from the front of one of those - yet here I am. Stearman is easy, like a J3. Either seat. Using extreme care with this Waco. Only thing worse has to be the Spirit of St. Louis.

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mvivion said:

Did a flight review in front seat of a Waco Taperwing. Not much view from there either. Beautiful machine, though. Fortunately, the owner knew what he was doing.

MTV

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reliableflyer said:

I agree with Glenn and others who have said you can teach the majority of off airport landings from the grass or over a cup of coffee. You can no more “teach” STOL than you can teach someone to play a harmonica. It is something that has to be learned by doing, not taught by doing it over and over and over. I might add it is very expensive to learn. Don Lee in Talkeetna has a training program where he uses Pacers. Of course they won’t do what a super cub will do they are a hell of a lot cheaper. The basics can be taught over coffee and the experience and the perfecting of skills come from experience. Lots and lots of it.

Fred Potts used to say STOL performance can’t be bought. It has to be earned. I once thought about buying a Helio Courier. Larry Storlie, the insurance rep for Alaska and other west coast locations, who was confident in my off airport experience, told me that Avemco wouldn’t insure Helio Couriers. When I asked why he said everyone who gets in one thinks he’s a bush pilot and expect mericiles without the experience, sort of like a kid in a Corvette who thinks the car makes him a race car driver.

There is no short cut. There are frequent incidents, and a steep learning curve. And it is expensive.

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reliableflyer said:

There is no short cut. There are frequent incidents, and a steep learning curve. And it is expensive.

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wireweinie said:

Well, crap . . . .

Anyone want to buy a harmonica?

Web

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redheadcubpilot said:

Very well said! Don has it down to a science, I heard he was using more tri pacers than pacers for wheel planes because most people struggle with tailwheel and too much new information.
I think offering a 10 hour bush flying course gets people a great introduction to the flying required to conduct those operations. It will hopefully inspire most people to improve there own skills and maybe want additional training to build there experience.

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Vmc said:

That starts with a Super Cub even though it's a poor business decision. Add large tires and the effect on people is noticeable.

I emphasize that passengers keep their feet off the brakes at all times because it's something I can't counter. My humble advice is to avoid high-pressure brakes in a company-owned bush plane. A student should be careful braking with the tail up to shorten the landing roll. With 35's you'll be on your nose in an instant.

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bob turner said:

I took Don's ski course about a decade ago. One of the highlights of my flying career. I had great disdain for Pacers until I flew his. If I didn't love Cubs so much I might go for a 160 Clipper.
I wouldn't survive a Talkeetna winter, but I loved the place!

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redheadcubpilot said:

Do you think that it’s bad business decision because they are expensive to operate?
My first CFI gig in tailwheels was out of a big paved airport on small wheels and the brakes were always the hottest topic of discussion. Quickly learned that the grass and gravel strips were much more forgiving.

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RoddyM said:

I’ve been watching this with interest. About 300 hours in the back seat of a RANS S7S, my 2 cents;
Upgraded Roberts landing gear, extended and swept forward with Acmeaerofab Shocks and 29 Airstreaks, made this plane much easier and safer to instruct in. Avoid any instruction on pavement, these planes aren't meant for this surface. No braking at all on the landing roll out until the tail is firmly planted and the stick is all the way back. Start with calm wind always. Start your new student in the BACK. Yep, take them for a tour, give them a little stick time back there. Try an approach. You’re learning about them- your not teaching anything during this, you’re figuring THEM out and they don’t know it. Which is good.
This isn’t Walmart. The door is not open to everyone. You want the RIGHT type of person to train. How do you find them? I’m not sure exactly, but figure it out. Somehow. If they have one hour a month to train, they aren’t your student. If they’ve got time for 5-10 hours over a week, they may be your customer. Solo time? Tricky business. BUT, if you’ve instructed them well and they perform consistently well, and you’ve got a nice big grass strip? Light wind? Send them solo. It’s important for them and you. Oh, and as far as a liability waiver- I get them to sign. And their wife to sign too. Signatures from all effected parties are good. Not a guarantee mind you, but at least a gate. Super Cub expensive? The plane is yep. But not the wear parts- brakes, tires etc. That stuff is cheap. Don’t bend the plane and the Super Cub is just as economical to operate as mostly anything else. Except a 912 RANS S-7S, which will give you the same experience except it burns less gas and burns no oil.
Good luck and good days to you.

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reliableflyer said:

When we talk of off airport operations we tend to concentrate too much on the aircraft and it’s capabilities and not enough in our own abilities. People still land less than the optimum planes off airport. It’s important to do the best we can with the aircraft were using, know it’s limitations and our own limitations. Improving our own skills is paramount.

just as important is learning where we can land safely and how to judge obstacles, distances, escape routes etc. we need to learn what landing areas are too soft or too rough or may flood from tides or high water. We need to learn how to secure a plane and judge wind when there is no wind sock. Lots to know aside from what the airplane is capable of doing such as what we can consistently make it do.

I can’t overestimate the importance of knowledge concerning where we can land and take off as well as learning to judge our own capabilities and control our own egos.

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RoddyM said:

I’ve been watching this with interest. About 300 hours in the back seat of a RANS S7S, my 2 cents;
Upgraded Roberts landing gear, extended and swept forward with Acmeaerofab Shocks and 29 Airstreaks, made this plane much easier and safer to instruct in. Avoid any instruction on pavement, these planes aren't meant for this surface. No braking at all on the landing roll out until the tail is firmly planted and the stick is all the way back. Start with calm wind always. Start your new student in the BACK. Yep, take them for a tour, give them a little stick time back there. Try an approach. You’re learning about them- your not teaching anything during this, you’re figuring THEM out and they don’t know it. Which is good.
This isn’t Walmart. The door is not open to everyone. You want the RIGHT type of person to train. How do you find them? I’m not sure exactly, but figure it out. Somehow. If they have one hour a month to train, they aren’t your student. If they’ve got time for 5-10 hours over a week, they may be your customer. Solo time? Tricky business. BUT, if you’ve instructed them well and they perform consistently well, and you’ve got a nice big grass strip? Light wind? Send them solo. It’s important for them and you. Oh, and as far as a liability waiver- I get them to sign. And their wife to sign too. Signatures from all effected parties are good. Not a guarantee mind you, but at least a gate. Super Cub expensive? The plane is yep. But not the wear parts- brakes, tires etc. That stuff is cheap. Don’t bend the plane and the Super Cub is just as economical to operate as mostly anything else. Except a 912 RANS S-7S, which will give you the same experience except it burns less gas and burns no oil.
Good luck and good days to you.

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mvivion said:

I assume this is Light Sport? Instructing in Experimental other than LS is difficult.

MTV

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redheadcubpilot said:

All great points thanks for the input. The discussion came up again at the diner having breakfast with another fellow pilot who had overheard the conversation at work. His point was along the same line of be careful who you instruct but never let them go solo. He told me what he pays to be able to instruct in his cub and it sort of scared me.

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RoddyM said:

I’d be a bit concerned with a flight school, or instructor, not allowing solo. This is what it means; they either aren’t properly insured, or lack confidence in they’re screening abilities on judging wether or not a customer can actually become a tail wheel pilot, and/or lack confidence in they’re own instructing ability. It’s one of these things or a combination of them. That simple. To take on a student, in a Cub for example, and give them good training for, let’s say 8 hours, then refuse them solo, is bad customer service. Plain and simple. If you aren’t going to solo them, you only have one excuse; If between 3-5 hours they are still all over the place on the takeoff roll or the roll out, you need to be honest with them, “I think you need to stick with a 172, try another instructor, or come back in a year and we’ll try again.” Stop taking their money and stop you’re frustration. I can never consider the project complete until the customer has soloed. Then it’s complete.

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mvivion said:

Reliable makes good points. I would add that one of the things you notice early on in off airport ops is how much pilots have relied on runway markings. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told someone to go around because they were lined up to land somewhere other than where they just pioneered. In the real world, that can cause problems.

During the pioneering process, it’s essential to develop “landmarks” that you use to ensure you’re hitting the right spot. Most folks doing this kind of work don’t even think about it....it’s automatic. But folks new to the game need to understand there are no more threshold marks, no more center lines, etc. You need to develop those things for yourself and develop a mental map of the LZ.

”Ill touch here, going this direction, then run out using that tree in the distance to keep me straight till I pass that log, then dog leg right toward.....etc.

MTV

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mvivion said:

Reliable makes good points. I would add that one of the things you notice early on in off airport ops is how much pilots have relied on runway markings. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told someone to go around because they were lined up to land somewhere other than where they just pioneered. In the real world, that can cause problems.

During the pioneering process, it’s essential to develop “landmarks” that you use to ensure you’re hitting the right spot. Most folks doing this kind of work don’t even think about it....it’s automatic. But folks new to the game need to understand there are no more threshold marks, no more center lines, etc. You need to develop those things for yourself and develop a mental map of the LZ.

”Ill touch here, going this direction, then run out using that tree in the distance to keep me straight till I pass that log, then dog leg right toward.....etc.

MTV

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redheadcubpilot said:

Do you think that it’s bad business decision because they are expensive to operate?
My first CFI gig in tailwheels was out of a big paved airport on small wheels and the brakes were always the hottest topic of discussion. Quickly learned that the grass and gravel strips were much more forgiving.

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