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Thread: Super cub Flight instruction ideas

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by reliableflyer View Post
    I agree with Glenn and others who have said you can teach the majority of off airport landings from the grass or over a cup of coffee. You can no more “teach” STOL than you can teach someone to play a harmonica. It is something that has to be learned by doing, not taught by doing it over and over and over. I might add it is very expensive to learn. Don Lee in Talkeetna has a training program where he uses Pacers. Of course they won’t do what a super cub will do they are a hell of a lot cheaper. The basics can be taught over coffee and the experience and the perfecting of skills come from experience. Lots and lots of it.

    Fred Potts used to say STOL performance can’t be bought. It has to be earned. I once thought about buying a Helio Courier. Larry Storlie, the insurance rep for Alaska and other west coast locations, who was confident in my off airport experience, told me that Avemco wouldn’t insure Helio Couriers. When I asked why he said everyone who gets in one thinks he’s a bush pilot and expect mericiles without the experience, sort of like a kid in a Corvette who thinks the car makes him a race car driver.

    There is no short cut. There are frequent incidents, and a steep learning curve. And it is expensive.
    Very well said! Don has it down to a science, I heard he was using more tri pacers than pacers for wheel planes because most people struggle with tailwheel and too much new information.
    I think offering a 10 hour bush flying course gets people a great introduction to the flying required to conduct those operations. It will hopefully inspire most people to improve there own skills and maybe want additional training to build there experience.
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by reliableflyer View Post
    There is no short cut. There are frequent incidents, and a steep learning curve. And it is expensive.
    Well, crap . . . .

    Anyone want to buy a harmonica?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Well, crap . . . .

    Anyone want to buy a harmonica?

    Web
    Or maybe a Rubik’s cube?
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by redheadcubpilot View Post
    Very well said! Don has it down to a science, I heard he was using more tri pacers than pacers for wheel planes because most people struggle with tailwheel and too much new information.
    I think offering a 10 hour bush flying course gets people a great introduction to the flying required to conduct those operations. It will hopefully inspire most people to improve there own skills and maybe want additional training to build there experience.
    That works in Alaska, because there are so many unique spots to take “students”. In the Lower 48, you may have difficulty finding a good supply of unique “strips”. Depends on where you’re at, I reckon.

    MTV
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  5. #45

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    So interesting to read these threads. Thanks MTV for always sharing your knowledge. I have to agree with SJ that cool and looking good matters. That starts with a Super Cub even though it's a poor business decision. Add large tires and the effect on people is noticeable.

    I emphasize that passengers keep their feet off the brakes at all times because it's something I can't counter. My humble advice is to avoid high-pressure brakes in a company-owned bush plane. A student should be careful braking with the tail up to shorten the landing roll. With 35's you'll be on your nose in an instant. Over braking on gravel is obviously more forgiving - you slide and have more time to correct as the tail rises. Dry grass = more friction, asphalt, well, why are you landing 31s or 35s on asphalt anyway?

  6. #46

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    I took Don's ski course about a decade ago. One of the highlights of my flying career. I had great disdain for Pacers until I flew his. If I didn't love Cubs so much I might go for a 160 Clipper.
    I wouldn't survive a Talkeetna winter, but I loved the place!
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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vmc View Post
    That starts with a Super Cub even though it's a poor business decision. Add large tires and the effect on people is noticeable.

    I emphasize that passengers keep their feet off the brakes at all times because it's something I can't counter. My humble advice is to avoid high-pressure brakes in a company-owned bush plane. A student should be careful braking with the tail up to shorten the landing roll. With 35's you'll be on your nose in an instant.
    Do you think that it’s bad business decision because they are expensive to operate?
    My first CFI gig in tailwheels was out of a big paved airport on small wheels and the brakes were always the hottest topic of discussion. Quickly learned that the grass and gravel strips were much more forgiving.
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I took Don's ski course about a decade ago. One of the highlights of my flying career. I had great disdain for Pacers until I flew his. If I didn't love Cubs so much I might go for a 160 Clipper.
    I wouldn't survive a Talkeetna winter, but I loved the place!
    They are definitely decent performers with the 0-320. Makes a big difference.
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by redheadcubpilot View Post
    Do you think that itís bad business decision because they are expensive to operate?
    My first CFI gig in tailwheels was out of a big paved airport on small wheels and the brakes were always the hottest topic of discussion. Quickly learned that the grass and gravel strips were much more forgiving.
    Iíve been watching this with interest. About 300 hours in the back seat of a RANS S7S, my 2 cents;
    Upgraded Roberts landing gear, extended and swept forward with Acmeaerofab Shocks and 29 Airstreaks, made this plane much easier and safer to instruct in. Avoid any instruction on pavement, these planes aren't meant for this surface. No braking at all on the landing roll out until the tail is firmly planted and the stick is all the way back. Start with calm wind always. Start your new student in the BACK. Yep, take them for a tour, give them a little stick time back there. Try an approach. Youíre learning about them- your not teaching anything during this, youíre figuring THEM out and they donít know it. Which is good.
    This isnít Walmart. The door is not open to everyone. You want the RIGHT type of person to train. How do you find them? Iím not sure exactly, but figure it out. Somehow. If they have one hour a month to train, they arenít your student. If theyíve got time for 5-10 hours over a week, they may be your customer. Solo time? Tricky business. BUT, if youíve instructed them well and they perform consistently well, and youíve got a nice big grass strip? Light wind? Send them solo. Itís important for them and you. Oh, and as far as a liability waiver- I get them to sign. And their wife to sign too. Signatures from all effected parties are good. Not a guarantee mind you, but at least a gate. Super Cub expensive? The plane is yep. But not the wear parts- brakes, tires etc. That stuff is cheap. Donít bend the plane and the Super Cub is just as economical to operate as mostly anything else. Except a 912 RANS S-7S, which will give you the same experience except it burns less gas and burns no oil.
    Good luck and good days to you.
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  10. #50

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    When we talk of off airport operations we tend to concentrate too much on the aircraft and it’s capabilities and not enough in our own abilities. People still land less than the optimum planes off airport. It’s important to do the best we can with the aircraft were using, know it’s limitations and our own limitations. Improving our own skills is paramount.

    just as important is learning where we can land safely and how to judge obstacles, distances, escape routes etc. we need to learn what landing areas are too soft or too rough or may flood from tides or high water. We need to learn how to secure a plane and judge wind when there is no wind sock. Lots to know aside from what the airplane is capable of doing such as what we can consistently make it do.

    I can’t overestimate the importance of knowledge concerning where we can land and take off as well as learning to judge our own capabilities and control our own egos.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoddyM View Post
    I’ve been watching this with interest. About 300 hours in the back seat of a RANS S7S, my 2 cents;
    Upgraded Roberts landing gear, extended and swept forward with Acmeaerofab Shocks and 29 Airstreaks, made this plane much easier and safer to instruct in. Avoid any instruction on pavement, these planes aren't meant for this surface. No braking at all on the landing roll out until the tail is firmly planted and the stick is all the way back. Start with calm wind always. Start your new student in the BACK. Yep, take them for a tour, give them a little stick time back there. Try an approach. You’re learning about them- your not teaching anything during this, you’re figuring THEM out and they don’t know it. Which is good.
    This isn’t Walmart. The door is not open to everyone. You want the RIGHT type of person to train. How do you find them? I’m not sure exactly, but figure it out. Somehow. If they have one hour a month to train, they aren’t your student. If they’ve got time for 5-10 hours over a week, they may be your customer. Solo time? Tricky business. BUT, if you’ve instructed them well and they perform consistently well, and you’ve got a nice big grass strip? Light wind? Send them solo. It’s important for them and you. Oh, and as far as a liability waiver- I get them to sign. And their wife to sign too. Signatures from all effected parties are good. Not a guarantee mind you, but at least a gate. Super Cub expensive? The plane is yep. But not the wear parts- brakes, tires etc. That stuff is cheap. Don’t bend the plane and the Super Cub is just as economical to operate as mostly anything else. Except a 912 RANS S-7S, which will give you the same experience except it burns less gas and burns no oil.
    Good luck and good days to you.
    All great points thanks for the input. The discussion came up again at the diner having breakfast with another fellow pilot who had overheard the conversation at work. His point was along the same line of be careful who you instruct but never let them go solo. He told me what he pays to be able to instruct in his cub and it sort of scared me.
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George
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  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by reliableflyer View Post
    When we talk of off airport operations we tend to concentrate too much on the aircraft and it’s capabilities and not enough in our own abilities. People still land less than the optimum planes off airport. It’s important to do the best we can with the aircraft were using, know it’s limitations and our own limitations. Improving our own skills is paramount.

    just as important is learning where we can land safely and how to judge obstacles, distances, escape routes etc. we need to learn what landing areas are too soft or too rough or may flood from tides or high water. We need to learn how to secure a plane and judge wind when there is no wind sock. Lots to know aside from what the airplane is capable of doing such as what we can consistently make it do.

    I can’t overestimate the importance of knowledge concerning where we can land and take off as well as learning to judge our own capabilities and control our own egos.
    For sure, we all know of that place where the beach is a “mile” long and always suitable to fly, no matter the airplane. Those are also the places where I would want to take beginners. We have all seen the videos of crazy SC stunts but most people or weather conditions are not conducive.
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoddyM View Post
    I’ve been watching this with interest. About 300 hours in the back seat of a RANS S7S, my 2 cents;
    Upgraded Roberts landing gear, extended and swept forward with Acmeaerofab Shocks and 29 Airstreaks, made this plane much easier and safer to instruct in. Avoid any instruction on pavement, these planes aren't meant for this surface. No braking at all on the landing roll out until the tail is firmly planted and the stick is all the way back. Start with calm wind always. Start your new student in the BACK. Yep, take them for a tour, give them a little stick time back there. Try an approach. You’re learning about them- your not teaching anything during this, you’re figuring THEM out and they don’t know it. Which is good.
    This isn’t Walmart. The door is not open to everyone. You want the RIGHT type of person to train. How do you find them? I’m not sure exactly, but figure it out. Somehow. If they have one hour a month to train, they aren’t your student. If they’ve got time for 5-10 hours over a week, they may be your customer. Solo time? Tricky business. BUT, if you’ve instructed them well and they perform consistently well, and you’ve got a nice big grass strip? Light wind? Send them solo. It’s important for them and you. Oh, and as far as a liability waiver- I get them to sign. And their wife to sign too. Signatures from all effected parties are good. Not a guarantee mind you, but at least a gate. Super Cub expensive? The plane is yep. But not the wear parts- brakes, tires etc. That stuff is cheap. Don’t bend the plane and the Super Cub is just as economical to operate as mostly anything else. Except a 912 RANS S-7S, which will give you the same experience except it burns less gas and burns no oil.
    Good luck and good days to you.
    I assume this is Light Sport? Instructing in Experimental other than LS is difficult.

    MTV
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  14. #54
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    Reliable makes good points. I would add that one of the things you notice early on in off airport ops is how much pilots have relied on runway markings. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told someone to go around because they were lined up to land somewhere other than where they just pioneered. In the real world, that can cause problems.

    During the pioneering process, it’s essential to develop “landmarks” that you use to ensure you’re hitting the right spot. Most folks doing this kind of work don’t even think about it....it’s automatic. But folks new to the game need to understand there are no more threshold marks, no more center lines, etc. You need to develop those things for yourself and develop a mental map of the LZ.

    ”Ill touch here, going this direction, then run out using that tree in the distance to keep me straight till I pass that log, then dog leg right toward.....etc.

    MTV
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  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    I assume this is Light Sport? Instructing in Experimental other than LS is difficult.

    MTV
    Under the Ultralight category in Canada. Similar to your rules pertaining to LSA.
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  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by redheadcubpilot View Post
    All great points thanks for the input. The discussion came up again at the diner having breakfast with another fellow pilot who had overheard the conversation at work. His point was along the same line of be careful who you instruct but never let them go solo. He told me what he pays to be able to instruct in his cub and it sort of scared me.
    I’d be a bit concerned with a flight school, or instructor, not allowing solo. This is what it means; they either aren’t properly insured, or lack confidence in they’re screening abilities on judging wether or not a customer can actually become a tail wheel pilot, and/or lack confidence in they’re own instructing ability. It’s one of these things or a combination of them. That simple. To take on a student, in a Cub for example, and give them good training for, let’s say 8 hours, then refuse them solo, is bad customer service. Plain and simple. If you aren’t going to solo them, you only have one excuse; If between 3-5 hours they are still all over the place on the takeoff roll or the roll out, you need to be honest with them, “I think you need to stick with a 172, try another instructor, or come back in a year and we’ll try again.” Stop taking their money and stop you’re frustration. I can never consider the project complete until the customer has soloed. Then it’s complete.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoddyM View Post
    I’d be a bit concerned with a flight school, or instructor, not allowing solo. This is what it means; they either aren’t properly insured, or lack confidence in they’re screening abilities on judging wether or not a customer can actually become a tail wheel pilot, and/or lack confidence in they’re own instructing ability. It’s one of these things or a combination of them. That simple. To take on a student, in a Cub for example, and give them good training for, let’s say 8 hours, then refuse them solo, is bad customer service. Plain and simple. If you aren’t going to solo them, you only have one excuse; If between 3-5 hours they are still all over the place on the takeoff roll or the roll out, you need to be honest with them, “I think you need to stick with a 172, try another instructor, or come back in a year and we’ll try again.” Stop taking their money and stop you’re frustration. I can never consider the project complete until the customer has soloed. Then it’s complete.
    He was referring to training pilots who already have licenses. This gentleman mostly does tailwheel endorsements. I know there are a few places that will let you rent a cub solo but they are for sure few. Even fewer that would rent you one on bush wheels. Price of insurance for tailwheel solo rental I have been told is $$$$$$$$
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Reliable makes good points. I would add that one of the things you notice early on in off airport ops is how much pilots have relied on runway markings. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told someone to go around because they were lined up to land somewhere other than where they just pioneered. In the real world, that can cause problems.

    During the pioneering process, it’s essential to develop “landmarks” that you use to ensure you’re hitting the right spot. Most folks doing this kind of work don’t even think about it....it’s automatic. But folks new to the game need to understand there are no more threshold marks, no more center lines, etc. You need to develop those things for yourself and develop a mental map of the LZ.

    ”Ill touch here, going this direction, then run out using that tree in the distance to keep me straight till I pass that log, then dog leg right toward.....etc.

    MTV
    I agree wholeheartedly. I’ve seen and done this where a landing area is surveyed and deemed acceptable only to go back to my originally picked landing point and be a few degrees off and end up landing on a piece of ground other than what I had surveyed.
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  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Reliable makes good points. I would add that one of the things you notice early on in off airport ops is how much pilots have relied on runway markings. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told someone to go around because they were lined up to land somewhere other than where they just pioneered. In the real world, that can cause problems.

    During the pioneering process, it’s essential to develop “landmarks” that you use to ensure you’re hitting the right spot. Most folks doing this kind of work don’t even think about it....it’s automatic. But folks new to the game need to understand there are no more threshold marks, no more center lines, etc. You need to develop those things for yourself and develop a mental map of the LZ.

    ”Ill touch here, going this direction, then run out using that tree in the distance to keep me straight till I pass that log, then dog leg right toward.....etc.

    MTV
    I think that is where having those pre-looked at locations to help with identification for newbies comes in. To get them to develop the eye for where and how to land in that area.
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

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    Quote Originally Posted by redheadcubpilot View Post
    Do you think that it’s bad business decision because they are expensive to operate?
    My first CFI gig in tailwheels was out of a big paved airport on small wheels and the brakes were always the hottest topic of discussion. Quickly learned that the grass and gravel strips were much more forgiving.
    My point is that unless your selling expensive packages (lodge/guiding) in AK the return on investment for a Cub is not good. You can accomplish the same mission with a plane that's 1/3 the cost and your students will learn just as much and may never approach the full capability of a cub anyway. I have a love/hate relationship with Pacers but they are obviously a popular choice and with wing extensions, 0-320, borer, BWs, and vgs, and operators like Don are making them work. In many cases these less expensive airplanes are being used commercially with no hull insurance. Other alternatives that come to mind are Chiefs, Champs, Sedans, C140, PA11, there's many others like an older Maules or the Stinson 108. I think Stinson's look badass on Bushhweels. Having said that I have two Super Cubs and enjoy loosing money with them every time I fly.
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  21. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vmc View Post
    My point is that unless your selling expensive packages (lodge/guiding) in AK the return on investment for a Cub is not good. You can accomplish the same mission with a plane that's 1/3 the cost and your students will learn just as much and may never approach the full capability of a cub anyway. I have a love/hate relationship with Pacers but they are obviously a popular choice and with wing extensions, 0-320, borer, BWs, and vgs, and operators like Don are making them work. In many cases these less expensive airplanes are being used commercially with no hull insurance. Other alternatives that come to mind are Chiefs, Champs, Sedans, C140, PA11, there's many others like an older Maules or the Stinson 108. I think Stinson's look badass on Bushhweels. Having said that I have two Super Cubs and enjoy loosing money with them every time I fly.
    I agree there are plenty of options that are way less, at-least in initial purchase price than a super cub. However, none of them are a cub. Other threads have had the great debate but in the end all the other will always be compared to the super cub
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

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    I learned to fly in a Pacer with a very patient CFI. Over the years some of the issues I have seen with new tailwheel pilots include fear of brakes. I watched a new tailwheel pilot drive a plane off the runway and groundloop because he was instructed to never use the brakes on landing. He could have easily regained directional control early on with a simple tap the brake. So somewhere along the line you have show them how that works. Tailwheel aircraft get in trouble when the tires are on the ground. So the best training would be to not leave the runway. Very hard on the instructor but just do tail up run and stay on the runway. Get to the end and taxi on back. Learn to pick up a wing and stay straight, now you have crosswinds trained. Two or three hours of this and the student should be pretty good on the ground although they may never come back for another lesson. I try to make my normal takeoff use up a lot of runway on one wheel, just pull power to 1600 and she will stay on the ground. I don't torture my instructors with the drills just something I figured out to improve my skills. Once the ground skills are mastered then teaching them to slow down and proper flair is easy because they are not scared of touchdown. I am not a CFI, but I do fly with some trying to improve their cub skills. DENNY
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  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoddyM View Post
    I’d be a bit concerned with a flight school, or instructor, not allowing solo. This is what it means; they either aren’t properly insured, or lack confidence in they’re screening abilities on judging wether or not a customer can actually become a tail wheel pilot, and/or lack confidence in they’re own instructing ability. It’s one of these things or a combination of them. That simple. To take on a student, in a Cub for example, and give them good training for, let’s say 8 hours, then refuse them solo, is bad customer service. Plain and simple. If you aren’t going to solo them, you only have one excuse; If between 3-5 hours they are still all over the place on the takeoff roll or the roll out, you need to be honest with them, “I think you need to stick with a 172, try another instructor, or come back in a year and we’ll try again.” Stop taking their money and stop you’re frustration. I can never consider the project complete until the customer has soloed. Then it’s complete.
    Roddy,

    When I was instructing in my 180 hp 170 on floats/wheels/skis in Alaska, I couldn't afford hull insurance. I simply couldn't fly enough hours to make it even come close to break even. So, I instructed with liability insurance only.

    At one point, I actually thought about allowing solo on floats. Insurance company said no way, NO insurance, not even liability, under ANY circumstances.

    At the University, we had a Top Cub. The way our tailwheel syllabus was originally written, it required one hour solo flight after the student was signed off on the endorsement.

    It only took the legal folks and insurer about a year to pick up on that, and announce NO more student solo in the Cub. Grrrrrr. Only people ever wrecked that plane were UND CFIs.....Grrrrr.

    MTV
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    An awful lot of good info in this thread. Something else to consider is glider instruction/rating. You can't get much better at Energy Management than with flying a sailplane, and all flights have the potential to being an off field landing. Most of our students learn to touch down within 50' of a predefined point, and stop within 10' of a predefined point before solo. Far more precise than what the FAA requires, but again, as soon as someone goes cross country, the potential is there for off field landings. We also go into the concepts of how to pick a field, and avoiding obstacles. This is not to say that glider flying is the only thing that is needed for off field training, but it will certainly hone the skills of the pilot involved.
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    I think it has to be just the love of aviation to make you even consider a venture such as this. If that’s the case, have fun. It will likely never make much money, but it’s sure fun, until it isn’t. You know how they say to make a small fortune in aviation.. start with a large one..
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  26. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    An awful lot of good info in this thread. Something else to consider is glider instruction/rating. You can't get much better at Energy Management than with flying a sailplane, and all flights have the potential to being an off field landing. Most of our students learn to touch down within 50' of a predefined point, and stop within 10' of a predefined point before solo. Far more precise than what the FAA requires, but again, as soon as someone goes cross country, the potential is there for off field landings. We also go into the concepts of how to pick a field, and avoiding obstacles. This is not to say that glider flying is the only thing that is needed for off field training, but it will certainly hone the skills of the pilot involved.
    Glider flying definitely teaches some amazing energy management skills. Only ever get one chance. Towing gliders was also a tremendous amount of fun too
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
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    Quote Originally Posted by mam90 View Post
    I think it has to be just the love of aviation to make you even consider a venture such as this. If that’s the case, have fun. It will likely never make much money, but it’s sure fun, until it isn’t. You know how they say to make a small fortune in aviation.. start with a large one..
    I think most flight schools are started for the love of aviation. Know a lot of life long instructors who do it because they enjoy teaching others.
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George
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  28. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Roddy,

    When I was instructing in my 180 hp 170 on floats/wheels/skis in Alaska, I couldn't afford hull insurance. I simply couldn't fly enough hours to make it even come close to break even. So, I instructed with liability insurance only.

    At one point, I actually thought about allowing solo on floats. Insurance company said no way, NO insurance, not even liability, under ANY circumstances.

    At the University, we had a Top Cub. The way our tailwheel syllabus was originally written, it required one hour solo flight after the student was signed off on the endorsement.

    It only took the legal folks and insurer about a year to pick up on that, and announce NO more student solo in the Cub. Grrrrrr. Only people ever wrecked that plane were UND CFIs.....Grrrrr.

    MTV
    Completely get the insurance with liability only. Can save a lot of money but better have a spare airplane or pieces.
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

  29. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by redheadcubpilot View Post
    Glider flying definitely teaches some amazing energy management skills. Only ever get one chance. Towing gliders was also a tremendous amount of fun too
    Yes, towing is great practice at learning spot landings. Figure about 6 an hour with a PA-18, about 8 an hour with a PA-25. Iíve had any dumber of days with +40 tows in a day. Practice, practice, practice.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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  30. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Yes, towing is great practice at learning spot landings. Figure about 6 an hour with a PA-18, about 8 an hour with a PA-25. I’ve had any dumber of days with +40 tows in a day. Practice, practice, practice.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I have only towed with the PA-25. How did you like towing with the super cub? I know a lot of places that’s what they use.
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

  31. #71

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    I prefer flying the Cub, but the Pawnee gets more tows per hour. I also towed with a PA-22/20. Longer ground run, but climbs almost as good as a Cub. I actually like the higher drag on the Cub for descent. Crank up to a 60 degree bank, hold 2300 rpm, pull some Gs and come down at about 1800 fpm.


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  32. #72
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    Steve has a very good point. Marketing can not be overlooked if you want to make a business out of it.

    Example: Joe has a P-51 sitting there to give you a war bird ride, and Tom has a T-6. You want to go for a ride and show your buddies... which you going to choose?

    Energy management is what must be learned. Knowing or feeling the energy changes and to be able to smoothly put the tires where you want!

    Frankly, to actually hone skills and get students the ability to actually land crazy places, I would prefer my old champ to teach them, put VG's and 26" bush wheels on and go, (it already had hydraulic brakes). Lots to be said for lower power, and no flaps when getting a handle on spot landing.

    A training cub, with marketing in mind for me would be a stripped 150 hp with a 2" Scott tailwheel and 26" tires, VG's and very little else. I would have a set of 31" on wheels ready to install if you get a group ready to 'go adventure' and have a special charge for that...

    I would never use goodyears, as part of the training should be braking on landing with the tail up. If you get aggressive with Goodyears you can spin them and things go south quick. Small tailwheel to limit shimmy, and most of your training should be done on at least semi solid surface lest you really want to charge lots for repairs.

    150 is a smoother engine, less vibration and less per hour cost to run.

    I would start every student with smooth takeoffs- pre set flaps before power, and just let them get a feel. Then it would be learning the approach and repeated smooth approaches to a landing point, focused on smooth and small power adjustments and pitch changes. Get them landing on the spot. On takeoffs they need to call the lift off spot.

    Once it is all working for them, having other places to go. It is all well and good to put cones and chalk lines on the ground, but a big part of the game is making the plane perform with different sight pictures and obstacles. A cliff at the end of the runway is a difficult approach- no way to come in using ground effect, so you have to come down in a descent and spot it right on, often there will be a sinker right there also- trees with a gap along the side will allow wind to come across in little gusts... This is why it is good to have folks experience different places, and as said before not having markings or a sock to tell you what and where can be a challenge on it's own.

    The little bit I have gotten to do in the North East was not terribly technical or complicated for me. It was apparent that one needed to have basic control understanding to be successful following others around, as they have some not so easy places to land. Not insurmountable for the average person either, but I saw enough places that were 'non-standard' that could easily develop pilots from 100x4000' runway folks into guys that demand precision from themselves!!

    Then again, there is that blue RV-4 with shopping cart wheels that seems to be almost everywhere I went

    I hope you are able to do it, and have fun with it!

    George
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  33. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Steve has a very good point. Marketing can not be overlooked if you want to make a business out of it.

    Example: Joe has a P-51 sitting there to give you a war bird ride, and Tom has a T-6. You want to go for a ride and show your buddies... which you going to choose?

    Energy management is what must be learned. Knowing or feeling the energy changes and to be able to smoothly put the tires where you want!

    Frankly, to actually hone skills and get students the ability to actually land crazy places, I would prefer my old champ to teach them, put VG's and 26" bush wheels on and go, (it already had hydraulic brakes). Lots to be said for lower power, and no flaps when getting a handle on spot landing.

    A training cub, with marketing in mind for me would be a stripped 150 hp with a 2" Scott tailwheel and 26" tires, VG's and very little else. I would have a set of 31" on wheels ready to install if you get a group ready to 'go adventure' and have a special charge for that...

    I would never use goodyears, as part of the training should be braking on landing with the tail up. If you get aggressive with Goodyears you can spin them and things go south quick. Small tailwheel to limit shimmy, and most of your training should be done on at least semi solid surface lest you really want to charge lots for repairs.

    150 is a smoother engine, less vibration and less per hour cost to run.

    I would start every student with smooth takeoffs- pre set flaps before power, and just let them get a feel. Then it would be learning the approach and repeated smooth approaches to a landing point, focused on smooth and small power adjustments and pitch changes. Get them landing on the spot. On takeoffs they need to call the lift off spot.

    Once it is all working for them, having other places to go. It is all well and good to put cones and chalk lines on the ground, but a big part of the game is making the plane perform with different sight pictures and obstacles. A cliff at the end of the runway is a difficult approach- no way to come in using ground effect, so you have to come down in a descent and spot it right on, often there will be a sinker right there also- trees with a gap along the side will allow wind to come across in little gusts... This is why it is good to have folks experience different places, and as said before not having markings or a sock to tell you what and where can be a challenge on it's own.

    The little bit I have gotten to do in the North East was not terribly technical or complicated for me. It was apparent that one needed to have basic control understanding to be successful following others around, as they have some not so easy places to land. Not insurmountable for the average person either, but I saw enough places that were 'non-standard' that could easily develop pilots from 100x4000' runway folks into guys that demand precision from themselves!!

    Then again, there is that blue RV-4 with shopping cart wheels that seems to be almost everywhere I went

    I hope you are able to do it, and have fun with it!

    George
    Thanks for all the good nuggets. Northeast has all the grass strips with the big tall trees
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

  34. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Steve has a very good point. Marketing can not be overlooked if you want to make a business out of it.

    A training cub, with marketing in mind for me would be a stripped 150 hp with a 2" Scott tailwheel and 26" tires, VG's and very little else. I would have a set of 31" on wheels ready to install if you get a group ready to 'go adventure' and have a special charge for that...

    150 is a smoother engine, less vibration and less per hour cost to run.
    One of the greatest debates of the entire SC forum, what engine is the best choice. Seems to be the 150/160 as light weight as you can get.

    Same choice of engine if you were going to do wheel skies or floats ?
    The engine may be the heart, but the pilot is the soul
    George

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