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Thread: Best floats going to a super cub 150

  1. #1

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    Best floats going to a super cub 150

    HI,

    Looking to buy a set of straight floats for my Super cub 150 for up in Alaska. What are the best floats for storage, short take off etc..?

    Thanks in advance for all the help. New to float flying.

    Thanks Scott

  2. #2
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    If you can afford it, go Aerocet.
    Wips second. You can never go wrong with the old standard EDO 2000 but they don’t have much for lockers.

    just my dumb opinion

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 03-24-2021 at 10:26 PM.
    Very Blessed.
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    Even if you cant afford it go Aerocet.

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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Well, let me toss in the explosives:

    Alaska??? What are you going to do? Big loads, small loads? Big water? Rocky beaches?

    I flew a light 150 cub for work with Aqua 1800s, and at the same time had my personal 180 cub on Edo 2000s. Empty, the Aqua floats on the 150 would take off right with the 180 cub, (800' or less), and flew pretty fast. Toss in 100. pounds, and it took a couple hundred more feet, put in 200 pounds and it took double; my 180 cub took about 200 more feet for 200 lbs was all. The Aquas could step turn a slalom like you can not imagine, and had flat tops.

    My Edo's, (I have had two cubs on them, and a 180) perform well, are tough, easy to repair, and can be fitted with hatches, but they are narrow doors.

    Whip runs a bit deeper V hull, making them slightly better for rough water, but needs more room to get out. Good hatch access, flat tops. A down side is that the ones I have been around have had thin skins, and guys had issues with getting punctures on rocky beaches. Also, at one time Whip used sealant in the assembly process, which made pulling them apart a smelly chore.

    Aerocetts... Again, a bit deeper V than EDOs, and a tad heavier than other options. Jumbo hatches. They do not like sharp objects rubbing, as it quickly damages the gelcoat and glass- but it does not take long in a dry spot to repair!! Also, they don't leak from the bottom- you can sleep at night not worrying about popped rivets sinking your plane.

    My plan, had I continued flying the Fish and Game contract was to upgrade to the Aerocetts for the lack of corrosion, confidence in they staying dry, and the good performance. Also, they can take rough water better with the V than the EDOs, and I was working lots of ocean swells and rough water.

    My second choice would be Edo 2000s for their performance and ease to repair, and parts are everywhere!! They come out of the water quick!

    Third would be Whips, as they are the least quick off the water, and seem to have fragile skins.

    Last would be the little Aquas, because I am a big guy and am flying loaded lots of the time.

    If I were only working swamps and small lakes where only takeoff distance was my concern, I would be hard pressed not to go back to EDOs
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    skukum12's Avatar
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    Bill's opinions are not dumb. He has the experience and knowledge to back up what he says.
    "Always looking up"
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    G44's Avatar
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    Baumann’s are one to give serious consideration to if you can find a set.

    Kurt
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    Your right Kurt. Had a set on a Husky and a Cub. Very good performers. Fast for their size. Tail sits high on them like a 185. Big compartments. Light but a little thin on the sides and a bit susceptible to dock rash. They would be my second choice and 3rd would be edo's or cap's. Have a set of Baumann's in the shed but want to sell them with the airplane. Our other cub has Aerocets.

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    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Loved my Baumanns. I was really sorry to see that company hibernate. I understand PK has a new model that may be a player as well. I believe our own SC.org member Jim Crane has been involved. Might be worth checking on.

    Bill
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G44 View Post
    Baumann’s are one to give serious consideration to if you can find a set.

    Kurt
    Great floats, if you can find them and parts.

    Someone needs to buy them up and start producing floats again!

    I would put them near the tip for sure.

    Isn't it great we have choices?

    If on a budget, get ones that are not corroded or beat to heck. They will all do the job for you
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Frankly, the simple answer to the OPs question is this: How much money are you willing to spend?

    I agree that Aerocets are great floats. Same goes for Wiplines. Both of those are going to cost you a bucket of money, because you are likely to have to buy NEW ones. And, even used ones are going to sell for a real premium.

    So, what??? $32,500 for new Aerocets, so good used ones are likely going to be $25,000 plus. At least. IF (and that is a big IF) you can find a used set for sale.

    Wips are likely in the same price range, new. Again, used ones are going to be scarce.

    Now, a Good set of EDO 2000 floats, with Super Cub rigging? About $12,000 should find a really good set, and there are LOTS of them out there, especially with Cub rigging.

    Second question: Does your airplane have the WIpline 2000 pound gross weight kit? If not, you're likely going to be doing a lot of over gross weight ops, regardless of the floats you put the plane on. Of course, this depends on the empty weight of your Cub, but even if it's at 1100 pounds, that'd only offer 650 pounds of useful load ON WHEELS. Plane's going to weigh more on floats.....any floats. So, you'll need to be light, and your passengers need to be REALLY light.

    IF you want to be legal, that is.

    The good news is that the Wip Gross weight kit is cheap if you buy a set of NEW Wipline floats. Then there's the cost of installation.

    As to performance, frankly, the Aerocets, the Wips and the EDO 2000 floats all perform pretty well. Unless you're a pretty experienced float pilot and you're hauling REALLY big loads (review statements above as to legality), the EDO 2000s will do just fine. These floats have been around forever, and have served well. Yes, the lockers available have small doors, but again, note the comments above on legalities.

    Me, I'd buy a set of EDO 2000s, learn to fly them, maybe add a set of hatches, and enjoy.

    MTV
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    I got this quote from Wipaire for a set for my PA12: ď...the Wipline 2100 straight floats are priced at $36,300 plus install ($5,300 here at Wipaire).Ē

    Aerocets are priced about the same; maybe just a bit less.

    Kenmore asks $21,000 for EDO 2000s.
    Last edited by Paul Heinrich; 03-25-2021 at 11:16 AM.
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    With the availability of belly pods for cargo and fuel, float storage compartments are less of a priority. Unless flush with the float deck they can trip us and get deformed over time. I've used float compartments on several but would take a pod over them now.

    Gary

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    I got this quote from Wipaire for a set for my PA12: “...the Wipline 2100 straight floats install ($5,300 here at Wipaire).”
    Wow! What do they charge per hour, $530?
    A new installation of EDO 2000s including assembly right out of the crates is 8 hours. Except on a Husky which is twice the time.
    N1PA

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    Edo 2000's with hatches since 1983. I can't think of a time I said "gosh, if only I had aerocets that pond would be available".

    Sure the hatches are small, but keep rope, some kind of anchor and a collapsible paddle in there and a tube of that epoxy.

    The tops? After 40 years I don't know what flat tops would be like. You adapt to what you have. The two rails down the top let you know where your foot is.

    Cheaper floats = more $$ for gas to go have fun.

    If you are flying external loads the pods don't work out so well.

    Lots of loads of 2x6s, ripped plywood, etc down the center of the spreader bars.

    The best floats are the ones you have time on and learn to get on step quick.

    Weight and the prop matter more then the float brand for "short".
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Wow! What do they charge per hour, $530?
    A new installation of EDO 2000s including assembly right out of the crates is 8 hours. Except on a Husky which is twice the time.
    Would the 5300 include the cost of the pa12 specific struts and rigging? Either way a 10 to 12k set of edos looks pretty good to me

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    2000 Lb Gross weight

    I see my Wipair STC allows the 2000 lbs gross weight with wip 2100's and edo 2000's. Has anyone had a field approval approved to allow the use of other manufactures floats at 2000 lbs? Would hate to spend that much money for the Aerosets and get kicked back to 1750 lbs. Does the Aeroset STC address this?
    Last edited by bubb2; 03-25-2021 at 02:20 PM.

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    aktango58's Avatar
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    For long term enjoyment of your floats, remove the front cleat from the top. Either roll it to the inside, (use a good doubler behind to take the load) or just tie to the front walk wire the few times you need to tie to the front.

    That top cleat will hole boots, toes and send you face first onto the beach. You can make a bracket that is much lower to hold the walk wire, I just tied to that when required.

    At anchor and on docks I always tied to the front spreader bar, allowing the bows to stay high in waves.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  18. #18
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StalledOut View Post
    Edo 2000's with hatches since 1983. I can't think of a time I said "gosh, if only I had aerocets that pond would be available".

    Sure the hatches are small, but keep rope, some kind of anchor and a collapsible paddle in there and a tube of that epoxy.

    The tops? After 40 years I don't know what flat tops would be like. You adapt to what you have. The two rails down the top let you know where your foot is.

    Cheaper floats = more $$ for gas to go have fun.

    If you are flying external loads the pods don't work out so well.

    Lots of loads of 2x6s, ripped plywood, etc down the center of the spreader bars.

    The best floats are the ones you have time on and learn to get on step quick.

    Weight and the prop matter more then the float brand for "short".

    I agree with everything except the reference to external loads. I much prefer to carry external loads on the vertical struts, as opposed to the spreader bars. On the spreaders, be careful about airflow disturbance over the tail. Often not a problem, but....

    But, everything else posted here is right on. Buy EDOs and Use that extra $20K to improve the airplane and buy gas.

    MTV

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    Amy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farm_boy252 View Post
    Would the 5300 include the cost of the pa12 specific struts and rigging? Either way a 10 to 12k set of edos looks pretty good to me
    $5,300 is labor only, the struts and rigging are included in the float price of $36,300.

    We do a straight float install every few years (and not one PA-12 every few years, literally just one of any variety of our floats) off-site at our seaplane base so itís not work that is our bread and butter and our techs arenít as practiced on it. Some airplanes we have to rent a crane for as well, compared to the several overhead cranes we have installed in our main facility.

    óAmy
    Proud owner of a collection of airplane pieces (sometimes in one big piece) known as the Oklahoma Kid.
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    Amy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubb2 View Post
    I see my Wipair STC allows the 2000 lbs gross weight with wip 2100's and edo 2000's. Has anyone had a field approval approved to allow the use of other manufactures floats at 2000 lbs? Would hate to spend that much money for the Aerosets and get kicked back to 1750 lbs. Does the Aeroset STC address this?
    This is covered by the Aerocet STC (SA02000SE) and is referenced on the AML as a note that the Aerocet 2200 floats are compatible with the Wipaire gross weight increase. The Aerocet 2200 has adequate buoyancy to support the increased gross weight, itís a bit bigger than the EDO 2000 in that regard, and a bit smaller than the Wipline 2100 in terms of buoyancy.

    óAmy
    Proud owner of a collection of airplane pieces (sometimes in one big piece) known as the Oklahoma Kid.
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    One other thing, if you are lucky enough to find a tight set of EDO2000's with the fiberglass spreader bar fairings those will give you a little more zip in the air.
    Don't let those go, they are a PITA to find and cut so they fit tight. If you had them, and then you don't you'll notice the extra noise and the loss of a few mph

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    Stalled out: I have a new, unused set of the fairings. PM me with an offer if you’re interested.

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    Amy: nothing personal, but public exposure of obvious price gouging for either product or service is embarrassing no matter how one tries to spin it.
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    The EDO 2000 spreader fairings (and others) would be a good candidate for carbon fiber buildup. They're some sort of plastic and sun eventually deteriorates them unless they're kept painted.

    Edit: If needed see Section S: http://www.aerofairings.ca/parts.htm

    Gary
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    If you want a set of Baumanns, I may have a set to sell in Anchorage. Not back in Alaska until after 4/21. Might consider selling, have two sets, want to keep one for sure.
    Traveling until 3/31.
    My opinion is these are the best for cub or Husky. Nice hatches, tails float high, unlike Edo 2000 when loaded are underwater.
    John
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  26. #26
    Amy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Amy: nothing personal, but public exposure of obvious price gouging for either product or service is embarrassing no matter how one tries to spin it.
    I donít set the prices but in my previous role I was a fly on the wall for some pricing discussions. I can assure you that the company ownership takes any price changes and new price establishment seriously, even if what is set isnít popular. We are all just humans trying to do the best we can with what is in our control.

    There is no requirement for the vast majority of our products to be installed at our facilities. Prices donít change based on time of year, how bad someone needs something, etc., with occasional exception for custom work that incurs additional cost, either materials or labor.

    We are happy to ship floats just about anywhere in the world (canít send Ďem to North Korea and the like) and thatís true of 90+% of what we build. We realize we canít be everything to everyone. At times I and my colleagues even recommend others more specialized in certain areas. We are definitely a higher-overhead shop compared to many others because weíre set up for things like Air Tractors, Caravans, Twin Otters, etc.

    No company is perfect but Iíve got a lot of respect for the family whose last name is on my paychecks.

    óAmy
    Proud owner of a collection of airplane pieces (sometimes in one big piece) known as the Oklahoma Kid.
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    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Amy: nothing personal, but public exposure of obvious price gouging for either product or service is embarrassing no matter how one tries to spin it.
    *edit* Amy said it better than I could. Unless you know the costs involved with running a company you don't have a right to call them out for price gouging. Bigger companies have higher overhead than Joe Bob your local mechanic who can do float changeovers for a couple bills and a case of beer. You're paying professionals to do it and that costs money.
    Last edited by Crash, Jr.; 03-25-2021 at 09:54 PM.
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    The bad taste of poor quality always outlasts the happiness of a 'good deal'.

    Quality has never been an issue with Wipaire or their work. While I may prefer other products for some jobs, history has shown that their products are of good quality and do well within their design parameters.

    Good quality only hurts once.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  29. #29

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    No, I’m not willing to buy $36,000 straight floats or pay $5,400 to have straight floats installed.

    $36,300 for a thousand dollars worth of materials used to build 80 year old technology with 6-8 moving parts is outrageous gouging. Remember, these are straight floats. At worst installation is a 8 hour job, so $660/hr. is also outrageous gouging. Even if it takes twice the time, $330/hr. is still gouging.

    Amy: why don’t you post Wip’s shop time book that shows how many hours your workers are allowed to spend installing floats. I’ll bet it calls for 8 hours or less.

    I wouldn’t buy Wip Amphibious floats for my Beaver in 95 because they cost more than the entire airplane. Wip is too used to charging government rates. It’s not that his products are any better, but that they are about the only game in town and he has many of us over a barrel.
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  30. #30
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    The EDO 2000 spreader fairings (and others) would be a good candidate for carbon fiber buildup. They're some sort of plastic and sun eventually deteriorates them unless they're kept painted.

    Edit: If needed see Section S: http://www.aerofairings.ca/parts.htm

    Gary
    I got a set and fit them on a set of 2000's that originally had them. Cut them in half and trimmed to fit. The new ones are fiberglass, the old was some sort of plastic and they crumbled. They were almost 30 years old. One of the fastest cubs on floats. Faster than it was on wheels
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  31. #31
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    No, Iím not willing to buy $36,000 straight floats or pay $5,400 to have straight floats installed.

    $36,300 for a thousand dollars worth of materials used to build 80 year old technology with 6-8 moving parts is outrageous gouging. Remember, these are straight floats. At worst installation is a 8 hour job, so $660/hr. is also outrageous gouging. Even if it takes twice the time, $330/hr. is still gouging.

    Amy: why donít you post Wipís shop time book that shows how many hours your workers are allowed to spend installing floats. Iíll bet it calls for 8 hours or less.

    I wouldnít buy Wip Amphibious floats for my Beaver in 95 because they cost more than the entire airplane. Wip is too used to charging government rates. Itís not that his products are any better, but that they are about the only game in town and he has many of us over a barrel.
    I guess you've never installed floats for the first time on an airplane before huh? You could order a new set of certified anfibs for a cub from one of the other manufactures, and order some replacement parts too. Oh wait.. How about the cost of approval. Cheapest thing in aviation is the owners
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    skukum12's Avatar
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    I dont think its just hanging the floats. I believe the $ is for setting the plane up for floats.
    "Always looking up"
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    Raisedbywolves: I’ve done it twice. On the Beaver and a 12.

    In asking for a labor quote I explained that the 12 already had weld on float fittings installed as well as the water rudder pulley brackets and that the only thing required was installing the water rudder retract tube and hook. But you’re right, maybe to some people performing those tasks and placing 4 bolts is worth $5,400 and, of course, they have a right to make a “reasonable” profit.

    Oh, and I told them it was an experimental 12 replica so I wouldn’t need an STC or any paperwork.

    If EDO can make money selling floats for about half Wip’s price, why won’t Wip?

  34. #34
    Amy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    No, Iím not willing to buy $36,000 straight floats or pay $5,400 to have straight floats installed.

    $36,300 for a thousand dollars worth of materials used to build 80 year old technology with 6-8 moving parts is outrageous gouging. Remember, these are straight floats. At worst installation is a 8 hour job, so $660/hr. is also outrageous gouging. Even if it takes twice the time, $330/hr. is still gouging.

    Amy: why donít you post Wipís shop time book that shows how many hours your workers are allowed to spend installing floats. Iíll bet it calls for 8 hours or less.

    I wouldnít buy Wip Amphibious floats for my Beaver in 95 because they cost more than the entire airplane. Wip is too used to charging government rates. Itís not that his products are any better, but that they are about the only game in town and he has many of us over a barrel.
    Paul, Iím happy to discuss pricing with you outside of this thread, though I donít believe youíll be happy with any options I have. Itís been so long since we put straights on a PA-12 I doubt anyone has good times any more. And yes, Iím sure our price has something to do with that, but thatís also a business decision. (Trust me, beating me up about it isnít going to change anythingóespecially since Iím usually the first to complain about pricing internally. I win a few, lose a few, live to fight another day on the next issue)

    There is no difference to us between certified and experimental floats. They are built in the same facility by the same people and as yet, all of our products have started in the certified space so every float bears the engineering costs because thatís what it took to make the float model a reality. You are welcome to install the floats on your own too.

    Scott, the OP, has asked for thoughts on floats for his Cub and heís gotten some great advice. Iíd rather not hijack this thread beyond its original scope and the related questions; I only commented on questions and posts to hopefully answer some of the questions that came up and to provide some clarity when possible.

    If anyone does have questions on pricing they want more details on, feel free to email me at agesch(at)Wipaire.com. I might not have all the answers but Iím always happy to help to the extent Iím able. Iím also good for random airplane trivia and Beaver jokes.

    óAmy
    Proud owner of a collection of airplane pieces (sometimes in one big piece) known as the Oklahoma Kid.
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  35. #35
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    The first ones to explain why a product should be cheaper are the last ones to go out and actually bother making a product themselves---for less money.
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  36. #36

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    The Corporation I used to fly for sold a product many thought was overpriced. More than once I witnessed our CEO being confronted by someone complaining about this. He’d shrug his shoulders and say “well, don’t buy it”....

  37. #37
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    Some interesting things...

    First, I believe EDO is now manufactured in China, not only is labor cheap, but my experience is that their metal quality, (steel is my experience) is terrible. There is a reason Cat equipment stays tight and other equipment is falling apart in 5,000 hours. EDO floats may be excellent, I have not used the newer ones- but that is a big price break.

    Second- I bought a cub with some attach fittings 'welded' on. Yea, ok, that is nice. Problem was that the guy that did the work was not good at reading the books, and had good ideas. It took us almost a week to put the floats on a 18, and lots of that was with two guys.

    Some guys get lucky and their projects are sprinkled in Unicorn Dust, the rest of us get projects that fight us from the beginning. Much easier for a shop to estimate or charge a true estimate of things including the trouble shooting expected than a lowball and then try to tell the customer they need to pay double.

    Oh, and seriously- if you are not willing to pay a professional a good wage for their experience and knowledge, soon there will be no professionals working in those fields. Then where will we be?

    Float choice answer: Find ones that don't leak and enjoy.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  38. #38
    mvivion's Avatar
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    I believe that EDO/Kenmore stopped the float manufacturing program in China. Frankly, I'm not sure they saved that much money....I've spoken to their onsite inspector about that process.

    EDO 2000s can be less expensive because so many sets have been made that the price of design, flight test and certification has long since been amortized. Wip 2100s on the other hand, the buyer is still paying a premium for the design, flight test and certification. They're not that old and not that many sets have been built, frankly.

    One thing I'm frequently reminded of is the importance of volume in both the design and production cost. What does it cost to design and certify a set of floats?? Holy cats, I don't even want to know, but you'd better believe that the first few thousand sets of those floats are probably going to be paying that premium.

    So, the difference in cost of the EDO 2000 vs Wiplines or Aerocets is likely that certification and design cost.

    And, just to make a point, installation of a set of floats for the first time is not just a few pulley brackets and four bolts. The floats have to be assembled first.....then they are mounted to the airplane with those four bolts.....then the flying wires are installed, and then.....the squaring process happens, getting both floats pointing the same direction that the plane is......and finally, yes, the cables have to be run, pulley brackets installed, water rudders installed and squared (yes, that's a common fault I've seen on newly installed floats....water rudders don't point in the same direction)......etc, etc.

    And, then, there's the paper work. Doesn't matter if the plane is EX, still has to have paperwork done. And, an outfit like Wip is NOT going to send one out the door without proper paperwork.

    Add all that up, and it's a bit more than a few hours. Re-installing properly rigged floats is an entirely different process, and takes far less time.

    But, the reason EDO 2000s cost so much less than Wips or Aerocets is that you're not having to pay the cost of certification and development, mostly.

    MTV
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  39. #39

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    Just saying: having to pay over $40 grand for a set of Cub floats is just NUTS!
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  40. #40

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    You don’t HAVE to pay it..... just sayin..... And guys are paying CubCrafters $400,000 for a Cub.. maybe we’re all nuts...

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