Best floats going to a super cub 150

Paul Heinrich said:

No, I’m not willing to buy $36,000 straight floats or pay $5,400 to have straight floats installed.

$36,300 for a thousand dollars worth of materials used to build 80 year old technology with 6-8 moving parts is outrageous gouging. Remember, these are straight floats. At worst installation is a 8 hour job, so $660/hr. is also outrageous gouging. Even if it takes twice the time, $330/hr. is still gouging.

Amy: why don’t you post Wip’s shop time book that shows how many hours your workers are allowed to spend installing floats. I’ll bet it calls for 8 hours or less.

I wouldn’t buy Wip Amphibious floats for my Beaver in 95 because they cost more than the entire airplane. Wip is too used to charging government rates. It’s not that his products are any better, but that they are about the only game in town and he has many of us over a barrel.

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I guess you've never installed floats for the first time on an airplane before huh? You could order a new set of certified anfibs for a cub from one of the other manufactures, and order some replacement parts too. Oh wait.. How about the cost of approval. Cheapest thing in aviation is the owners

I dont think its just hanging the floats. I believe the $ is for setting the plane up for floats.

Raisedbywolves: I’ve done it twice. On the Beaver and a 12.

In asking for a labor quote I explained that the 12 already had weld on float fittings installed as well as the water rudder pulley brackets and that the only thing required was installing the water rudder retract tube and hook. But you’re right, maybe to some people performing those tasks and placing 4 bolts is worth $5,400 and, of course, they have a right to make a “reasonable” profit.

Oh, and I told them it was an experimental 12 replica so I wouldn’t need an STC or any paperwork.

If EDO can make money selling floats for about half Wip’s price, why won’t Wip?

Paul Heinrich said:

No, I’m not willing to buy $36,000 straight floats or pay $5,400 to have straight floats installed.

$36,300 for a thousand dollars worth of materials used to build 80 year old technology with 6-8 moving parts is outrageous gouging. Remember, these are straight floats. At worst installation is a 8 hour job, so $660/hr. is also outrageous gouging. Even if it takes twice the time, $330/hr. is still gouging.

Amy: why don’t you post Wip’s shop time book that shows how many hours your workers are allowed to spend installing floats. I’ll bet it calls for 8 hours or less.

I wouldn’t buy Wip Amphibious floats for my Beaver in 95 because they cost more than the entire airplane. Wip is too used to charging government rates. It’s not that his products are any better, but that they are about the only game in town and he has many of us over a barrel.

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Paul, I’m happy to discuss pricing with you outside of this thread, though I don’t believe you’ll be happy with any options I have. It’s been so long since we put straights on a PA-12 I doubt anyone has good times any more. And yes, I’m sure our price has something to do with that, but that’s also a business decision. (Trust me, beating me up about it isn’t going to change anything—especially since I’m usually the first to complain about pricing internally. I win a few, lose a few, live to fight another day on the next issue)

There is no difference to us between certified and experimental floats. They are built in the same facility by the same people and as yet, all of our products have started in the certified space so every float bears the engineering costs because that’s what it took to make the float model a reality. You are welcome to install the floats on your own too.

Scott, the OP, has asked for thoughts on floats for his Cub and he’s gotten some great advice. I’d rather not hijack this thread beyond its original scope and the related questions; I only commented on questions and posts to hopefully answer some of the questions that came up and to provide some clarity when possible.

If anyone does have questions on pricing they want more details on, feel free to email me at agesch(at)Wipaire.com. I might not have all the answers but I’m always happy to help to the extent I’m able. I’m also good for random airplane trivia and Beaver jokes.

—Amy

The first ones to explain why a product should be cheaper are the last ones to go out and actually bother making a product themselves---for less money.

The Corporation I used to fly for sold a product many thought was overpriced. More than once I witnessed our CEO being confronted by someone complaining about this. He’d shrug his shoulders and say “well, don’t buy it”....

Some interesting things...

First, I believe EDO is now manufactured in China, not only is labor cheap, but my experience is that their metal quality, (steel is my experience) is terrible. There is a reason Cat equipment stays tight and other equipment is falling apart in 5,000 hours. EDO floats may be excellent, I have not used the newer ones- but that is a big price break.

Second- I bought a cub with some attach fittings 'welded' on. Yea, ok, that is nice. Problem was that the guy that did the work was not good at reading the books, and had good ideas. It took us almost a week to put the floats on a 18, and lots of that was with two guys.

Some guys get lucky and their projects are sprinkled in Unicorn Dust, the rest of us get projects that fight us from the beginning. Much easier for a shop to estimate or charge a true estimate of things including the trouble shooting expected than a lowball and then try to tell the customer they need to pay double.

Oh, and seriously- if you are not willing to pay a professional a good wage for their experience and knowledge, soon there will be no professionals working in those fields. Then where will we be?

Float choice answer: Find ones that don't leak and enjoy.

I believe that EDO/Kenmore stopped the float manufacturing program in China. Frankly, I'm not sure they saved that much money....I've spoken to their onsite inspector about that process.

EDO 2000s can be less expensive because so many sets have been made that the price of design, flight test and certification has long since been amortized. Wip 2100s on the other hand, the buyer is still paying a premium for the design, flight test and certification. They're not that old and not that many sets have been built, frankly.

One thing I'm frequently reminded of is the importance of volume in both the design and production cost. What does it cost to design and certify a set of floats?? Holy cats, I don't even want to know, but you'd better believe that the first few thousand sets of those floats are probably going to be paying that premium.

So, the difference in cost of the EDO 2000 vs Wiplines or Aerocets is likely that certification and design cost.

And, just to make a point, installation of a set of floats for the first time is not just a few pulley brackets and four bolts. The floats have to be assembled first.....then they are mounted to the airplane with those four bolts.....then the flying wires are installed, and then.....the squaring process happens, getting both floats pointing the same direction that the plane is......and finally, yes, the cables have to be run, pulley brackets installed, water rudders installed and squared (yes, that's a common fault I've seen on newly installed floats....water rudders don't point in the same direction)......etc, etc.

And, then, there's the paper work. Doesn't matter if the plane is EX, still has to have paperwork done. And, an outfit like Wip is NOT going to send one out the door without proper paperwork.

Add all that up, and it's a bit more than a few hours. Re-installing properly rigged floats is an entirely different process, and takes far less time.

But, the reason EDO 2000s cost so much less than Wips or Aerocets is that you're not having to pay the cost of certification and development, mostly.

MTV

Just saying: having to pay over $40 grand for a set of Cub floats is just NUTS!

You don’t HAVE to pay it..... just sayin..... And guys are paying CubCrafters $400,000 for a Cub.. maybe we’re all nuts...

A friend told me Wip charged his Nonprofit $40K to take a Caravan off amphibs and install existing wheel gear. Got to Florida and the ferry company wouldn't install the ferry tank because of a terribly inaccurate weight and balance. Premium prices don't always mean premium service.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app

mvivion said:

But, the reason EDO 2000s cost so much less than Wips or Aerocets is that you're not having to pay the cost of certification and development, mostly.

MTV

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A big reason that EDO 2000 are priced cheaper is that the rivit count is alot less then Wips. EDO started out building 5 sided floats like 1320s. Things changed when they started building 1400s and 2000s. Round top floats have a third less rivits then 5 sided floats and maybe half the labor because they jig up quicker. 15 years ago I stopped in at Wipline and killed some time watching 2 workers building some floats for a beaver. It took over 4 minutes per hole by the time they drilled, countersunk, debured and manipulated a bucking bar into the correct place that took a contortionist to make it happen. Times that by 10,000

Glenn

mam90 said:

You don’t HAVE to pay it..... just sayin..... And guys are paying CubCrafters $400,000 for a Cub.. maybe we’re all nuts...

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But they come with covered landing gear

When I bought my 1500A floats for my 11 back in 09 the wife told me I was nuts and didn't need them, I was one of the first 10 sets price $25,000 +/- ( more than I paid for the 11, 1320 floats and two sets of skis) now legend floats are $45,500. not metal but same design. tried to sell my 1320's and nobody wants to pay the $6,000. I wanted for them so now I had to build another plane so when I try to sell them again I will have a plane to go with them :-?. Like someone said earlier the cheapest part of a plane is the owner.

Douten said:

When I bought my 1500A floats for my 11 back in 09 the wife told me I was nuts and didn't need them, I was one of the first 10 sets price $25,000 +/- ( more than I paid for the 11, 1320 floats and two sets of skis) now legend floats are $45,500. not metal but same design. tried to sell my 1320's and nobody wants to pay the $6,000. I wanted for them so now I had to build another plane so when I try to sell them again I will have a plane to go with them :-?. Like someone said earlier the cheapest part of a plane is the owner.

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Aren't those the floats that the girl spanked you on? Maybe advertise them for sale in Cover Girl or Vogue???

Glenn

mam90 said:

You don’t HAVE to pay it..... just sayin..... And guys are paying CubCrafters $400,000 for a Cub.. maybe we’re all nuts...

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Well, those of us who are actually buying those things....

MTV

cubdriver2 said:

A big reason that EDO 2000 are priced cheaper is that the rivit count is alot less then Wips. EDO started out building 5 sided floats like 1320s. Things changed when they started building 1400s and 2000s. Round top floats have a third less rivits then 5 sided floats and maybe half the labor because they jig up quicker. 15 years ago I stopped in at Wipline and killed some time watching 2 workers building some floats for a beaver. It took over 4 minutes per hole by the time they drilled, countersunk, debured and manipulated a bucking bar into the correct place that took a contortionist to make it happen. Times that by 10,000

Glenn

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Yeah, sure....and, Aerocet doesn't install ANY rivets. Price is still the same. Go figure.

MTV

This is America- you’re free to engineer, prototype, test structures, flight test, spend years chasing certification with no sales, tool up, get your facility PMA’d, market, and support a new float, and sell a set for $15,000. Oh and it’s the 21st century, so don’t forget to pay for insurance, lawyers, taxes, regulatory compliance...

Thanks Bill, Enjoy your videos. Doing kinda the same thing you did. Thank you for your advice. Hope to run into up there some day up there!

Paul Heinrich said:

Just saying: having to pay over $40 grand for a set of Cub floats is just NUTS!

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$8,500 for a set of Edo 2000’s in 1975, that is when they were cranking them out so do the math, how much would that be today?

G44 said:

$8,500 for a set of Edo 2000’s in 1975, that is when they were cranking them out so do the math, how much would that be today?

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I bought a new Ford F100 full size pickup in 1974 for $3500. (Was told I paid to much). That truck today would be 40K minimum.
Dealer cost for a basic new cub in 1974 was about $10,000.
So the floats were about 60 to 85% of the cost of the aircraft. Perhaps new Aerocets at $32,500 isn’t so far out of line after all....

My 2016 F-150 XLT 4WD was $40,000. Hard to find one for that today. I was doing some flying for the Cessna dealer in Anchorage in the early 80’s when the price for a new 206 hit $100,000. We all predicted the end of the new airplane market....

An aviator neighbor where I park mentioned instead of putting money into IRA's, etc. as time passed he bought airplanes and various landing gear. Fixed them up when required. He was ahead of his time as now demand exceeds supply.

Gary