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Thread: External Load with my Experimental Super Cub

  1. #1
    Mauleguy's Avatar
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    External Load with my Experimental Super Cub

    Does anyone know if there are regulations that would prohibit me from carrying an external load with my Experimental Super Cub if I hold the repairman certificate and I approve the operation. I live in the lower 48 (Washington State) if that makes a difference. I am interested in the regulation that says I can't... Not a no, it is not legal without anything to back up the statement.

    Thank you,

    Greg
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Look at your operations limitations which were issued when the plane was certificated. There should be a statement to the effect "Any major changes need to be approved by the DAR". Your question to yourself would be "Is this a major alteration?". I know what my answer would be.
    N1PA
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    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Not sure either Greg?
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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    Not sure either Greg?
    How external?Click image for larger version. 

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    Wonder how the Phase 1 test to comply with 91.319 went with that one!


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    From my own operating limitations (para 12). I never paid much attention to it. Is this applicable for external loads?
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  6. #6
    courierguy's Avatar
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    We give you permission.

    I have a lot of yard art, chunks of timber, tree limbs, drift wood, and other junk that I have picked up and flown home over the years with the RANS (amazing what I can carry, and have yet to feel much if any difference in flight) via the lift struts, as their removal served two purposes: cleaning up/making better an off airport LZ, and as a souvenir. In fact I was watching one of your videos the other day and remember thinking, "I'd taken that tree branch with me...". The cat uses them as scratching posts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    From my own operating limitations (para 12). I never paid much attention to it. Is this applicable for external loads?
    Yes.


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    dgapilot,

    Are E-AB operating limitations standardized among DARS or does each DAR come up with his own? I presume there's a framework of required language but I have no idea how much (if any) variation there is in Op Lims between different DARS, different regions, etc. Other than my Phase 1 area boundaries I didn't have any input in my own limitations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    dgapilot,

    Are E-AB operating limitations standardized among DARS or does each DAR come up with his own? I presume there's a framework of required language but I have no idea how much (if any) variation there is in Op Lims between different DARS, different regions, etc. Other than my Phase 1 area boundaries I didn't have any input in my own limitations.
    All the boiler plate Operating Limitations are supposed to come out of Order 8130.2J. As of June last year, we all need to use a web based site for both the applicant (to fill out the 8130-6), and DATs or FAA Inspectors to complete the application and generate the certificate and operating limitations. The only variations are the geographic area for the Phase 1 flight testing, selecting day VFR, night, or IFR. And if to and landings can be done over populated areas. We also heave the option of imposing additional limitations in the interest of safety.


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    Would someone mind educating me about where the operating limitations are found for an experimental aircraft. Also if they are filed and can be found with the FAA. PM me if you want. Thank you!

  11. #11
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    They were issued with the airworthiness certificate when the airplane was inspected. They are to be carried in the airplane at all times.
    N1PA
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Durango View Post
    Would someone mind educating me about where the operating limitations are found for an experimental aircraft. Also if they are filed and can be found with the FAA. PM me if you want. Thank you!
    As Skywagon said, they were issued with the Airworthiness Certificate, and are required to be in the airplane any time it is operated. Yes, the FAA Airworthiness File should have a copy there.
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    I asked this question to the Helena FSDO about 10 years ago. Here is the part of the inspector's reply that answers my question:

    "......there is nothing in Part 91 that prohibits you from securing snowshoes or any other cargo to the wing struts of your experimental, Part 43 does not apply to experimental aircraft, so if there is nothing in the aircraft's operating limitations prohibiting you from doing it, there is no reason why you can't. Although I am sure I don't need to tell you, but if I didn't I wouldn't be doing my job, if you decide to do this please follow:
    1) stay within the weight and balance limitations of the aircraft
    2) secure the cargo in such a manner that it will not come off in flight and if it should come off in flight that it will not hit and damage the aircraft when it does.
    3) Keep in mind the aerodynamics of the aircraft and don't position the cargo so that it will disrupt airflow over the wings, tail feathers or flight controls.
    4) If you install any permanent type of rack or tie downs, please make a log book entry to document the installation.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post
    I asked this question to the Helena FSDO about 10 years ago. Here is the part of the inspector's reply that answers my question:

    "......there is nothing in Part 91 that prohibits you from securing snowshoes or any other cargo to the wing struts of your experimental, Part 43 does not apply to experimental aircraft, so if there is nothing in the aircraft's operating limitations prohibiting you from doing it, there is no reason why you can't. Although I am sure I don't need to tell you, but if I didn't I wouldn't be doing my job, if you decide to do this please follow:
    1) stay within the weight and balance limitations of the aircraft
    2) secure the cargo in such a manner that it will not come off in flight and if it should come off in flight that it will not hit and damage the aircraft when it does.
    3) Keep in mind the aerodynamics of the aircraft and don't position the cargo so that it will disrupt airflow over the wings, tail feathers or flight controls.
    4) If you install any permanent type of rack or tie downs, please make a log book entry to document the installation.
    I agree, but any airplane that’s gotten it’s Airworthiness certificate since February 2002 will have a limitation about operations with external stuff mounted and the need to flight test in that configuration.


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    I'll be interested to see what you come up with for a rack!

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    External loads are fun to observe, and I see some creative stuff. A couple of my neighbors strap motorcycles on their Cubs and fly into the boonies to ride. Pretty cool.
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  17. #17
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Didn't Jay get one for a scooter on the side of his experimental Super Cub?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  18. #18

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    I remember in my youth, towing signs with an L-19. Had to move a bunch of signs from one place to another. 5 signs rolled up inside, one tied to each strut, and two tied to the turtle deck! Don’t think I’d do that today.


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  19. #19
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Not my biggest or funkiest load, but the highest, 10K. This branch didn't need to be there, so I took it home and it leans up against the hangar wall with other picked up and flown out junk to this day. If I remember right, I had full camping gear plus my 50 pound ebike onboard that day.
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  20. #20
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Didn't Jay get one for a scooter on the side of his experimental Super Cub?
    https://youtu.be/QaXn-dpzutQ

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  21. #21
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    External Load with my Experimental Super Cub

    Interestingly TacAero just announced a “TacRack” for external loads.

    Introducing the new TacRack. STC approved for all PA18 / CC18 model aircraft and will also fit on the CCX-2000, like BlackBird. Now you can pack more...stuff.

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  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    That’s a man with style. Jay coordinated his outfit to match his scooter

  23. #23
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Nope, not going to happen!
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  24. #24
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    Nope, not going to happen!
    Tie it to the jury struts.
    N1PA

  25. #25
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Tie it to the jury struts.
    To be clear, I was joking.....especially as my eMontague fits inside, without intruding on the main baggage area further aft, and with room leftover underneath for more gear. Seeing some of the pictures in this thread made me want to try it, even if the weight wasn't the main issue, drag would be, plus the hassle of securing it while protecting the struts. I can be riding off (at 30 mph+) in 2.5-3 minutes after landing, and that includes unsecuring it. Besides, my struts are already occupied by a CF baggage pod, that's so streamlined I can't tell it's there.

    Some of the new kitplanes out there, the RANS S-21 and the Bearhawk line in particular, suffer from a design deficiency for those of us who fly external loads, only 1 strut per side, useless!
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  26. #26
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Here's a single strut wing.

    N1PA

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    Have any of you strapped a Fold-a-Boat to a 12 or 18 on floats? If so, please post photos. I used to do it with the Beaver, but never tried it on a 12.

  28. #28
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    You mean that flat boat that unfolds sideways? Some were metal and some are plastic. https://www.porta-bote.com/the-dinghy/ Just ties on to the struts and flys away. Never know it's there.

    Gary

    Edit: Forgot to mention. PA-12 tied to left struts. Fishing tool.
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 03-14-2021 at 11:56 AM.

  29. #29
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    Here is my plan. I want to hang my KTM 300. Probably a lot like this although I will probably will build my own rack that has a ratchet system to raise and lower. I guess since I have the repairman's certificate I should be able to test and sign it off for flight.

  30. #30
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Have any of you strapped a Fold-a-Boat to a 12 or 18 on floats? If so, please post photos. I used to do it with the Beaver, but never tried it on a 12.
    I've done it on a 185. One of the plastic ones folded, just tied it to the spreader bars. Flew it across Canada to Alaska and back, never knew it was there.
    N1PA

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    I agree, but any airplane that’s gotten it’s Airworthiness certificate since February 2002 will have a limitation about operations with external stuff mounted and the need to flight test in that configuration.


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    I read through my Experimental Operating Limitations, issued in July of 2011, and can’t see wording mentioning external stuff. The only thing that seems to come close is the mention of a major change needing to comply with 91.319b.

    Would the external load restriction be obvious?
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  32. #32
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Pete, here’s an option for metal wings. 🤣

    https://youtu.be/mBZN1Snhtvs


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  33. #33
    courierguy's Avatar
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    If I can figure out how to stuff the Montague in the S-7S, with your skill set and what your day job is, hanging the KTM from the belly ought to be a piece of cake. You probably have it done already! You got me thinking....maybe I can carry my non folding e fatbike similar, hanging from a belly rack.

    Here's my third ebike getting stuffed into and out of my day job wheels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMMhTUvn93E&t=10s In case it isn't obvious, having my own transportation on jobs when lunchtime rolls around is handier than breaking down the National and trying to fit it through a drive-thru.

  34. #34
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauleguy View Post
    Here is my plan. I want to hang my KTM 300.
    Here is another idea. Easy to load, no oil or gas leaking...

    Small removable platform into the axle.

    Not my idea, but I love it:


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  35. #35
    courierguy's Avatar
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    I assume the plane pictured has a cantilevered wing, or are the lfit struts further back? If not where are the lift struts?! That idea would work for me with my fatbike, and I got excited until I remembered my lift struts would be in the way.
    Last edited by courierguy; 03-15-2021 at 05:54 AM.

  36. #36

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    External Load with my Experimental Super Cub

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    Started developing a hay bale rack that would release the bale with a trigger mechanism.


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  37. #37

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    You’ll need a set of 35s if you want to haul a round bale!...I like your style. That makes checking waters and putting out hay a lot more fun.

  38. #38
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    You’ll need a set of 35s if you want to haul a round bale!...I like your style. That makes checking waters and putting out hay a lot more fun.
    LOL

    In my younger years I'd put out 30 100-pound square bales each morning for our small herd. Now if you could drop that from a cub, that would be something.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauleguy View Post
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    Here is my plan. I want to hang my KTM 300. Probably a lot like this although I will probably will build my own rack that has a ratchet system to raise and lower. I guess since I have the repairman's certificate I should be able to test and sign it off for flight.
    Now I want to build a rack! Getting an FA Dodge lumber rack down here to Bolivia wouldn't be worth the trouble but I'd like to build a copy of one for the Experimental Cub we operate here. Does anyone have pictures? Sketches? I'm guessing they are usually 4130 tubing?

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  40. #40
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Handlebar clearance will be the thing, unlike my folding bars on my cranebike, folding bars aren't a dirt bike thing, for good reason. The rack is the easy part, the method or system for lifting and securing it, without it being a giant PITA, will be the trick part. If it's a struggle every time, and takes half an hour.....I've found the more streamlined the process is for getting my Montague bike out and riding off, 3 minutes, increases the utility of the concept tremendously. Plus the wow factor of taxiing up somewhere, and magically riding high off at a high rate of speed a short time later, it's like a magic trick every time I do it, even after 20 years of doing it. What we really need is some small version of a Flying Boxcar, twin booms, drop down ramp, ride right in......I'm working on it.

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