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Thread: DHC-2 Ownership Cost

  1. #81

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    SJ If Laura drags out her research out and you save your cash till next year we should be ready to let ours go
    4150 tt NDH, all the logs, about 200 hrs since $650,000 restoration with mostly factory new parts.



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  2. #82
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    [QUOTE=peterdillon;799684]SJ If Laura drags out her research out and you save your cash till next year we should be ready to let ours go
    4150 tt NDH, all the logs, about 200 hrs since $650,000 restoration with mostly factory new parts.

    Looks like a stock nose, and upgraded windows, tip tanks and appears unmolested wing. Alaska Door?

    Laura would look FANTASTIC in that front seat. Well, let's be honest, she looks FANTASTIC all the time, but imagine the smile on her face in that pretty plane!

    (I imagine SC.ORG memberships are going up in price to help with the fuel bills!)

    It's only money.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterdillon View Post
    SJ If Laura drags out her research out and you save your cash till next year we should be ready to let ours go
    4150 tt NDH, all the logs, about 200 hrs since $650,000 restoration with mostly factory new parts.



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    NICE... too nice...
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  4. #84

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    I would flight plan at 25 GPH. Held pretty close unless it was a long flight, not many takeoffs and light. If there are lots of takeoffs or the aircraft is heavy it eats lots of fuel.


    I made the mistake one time leaving the landing light in during a long water taxi and the generator wouldn’t handle the load. I didn’t notice the warning light. Drug the battery down and it wouldn’t start. Hand propping a 985 with a three bladed prop on floats is time consuming, embarrassing and no fun. I just recently had my first shoulder replacement.
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  5. #85

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    I would flight plan at 25 GPH. Held pretty close unless it was a long flight, not many takeoffs and light. If there are lots of takeoffs or the aircraft is heavy it eats lots of fuel.
    ^^^^^^^
    We found this to be right on for our typical 2-3 hour flights.

    Kevin


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  6. #86
    cafi19's Avatar
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    That is a gorgeous plane....but my guess is it will be hard on our budget....or well exceed it. I need to work a lot harder!

    You are all awesome. We greatly appreciate your feedback, input and encouragement!

    There just aren't that many listed for sale....and if you want wheels....that narrows it much more. The interesting thing is, how do you put a value on these things. There isn't one like another and the tt swings can be huge! How much do you deduct in your planning for a beaver with 30K hours verses 15K. The panels vary greatly...but that is more understandable. The mods, AD status (and the price to bring them current). There is a lot to consider.

    I have talked to both Tulsa and Younkin about overhaul costs and timing. Talked to Kenmore about gear. All were super helpful. I'm afraid to dream at this point. It seems impossible to find one that suits our desires (yup...not a needs thing here at all). But if we don't do it now, we never will.

    cafi
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  7. #87
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    My DHC-2 ride from 1977 I drive by every day and wish time had stood still. They traded the 4930 floats years ago for some Kenmore mods and engine overhaul. Find a nice one and enjoy the best.

    Gary
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  8. #88

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  9. #89
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    Yup....just called on that one. Sounds ok....needs and engine overhaul of course, no tip tanks (which seems like a big deal when it burns so much an hour). He is going to send me some info. We would prefer the yoke on both sides...this has the swing over Anyone have first hand knowledge of this plane?

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafi19 View Post
    Yup....just called on that one. Sounds ok....needs and engine overhaul of course, no tip tanks (which seems like a big deal when it burns so much an hour). He is going to send me some info. We would prefer the yoke on both sides...this has the swing over Anyone have first hand knowledge of this plane?
    Have you considered becoming an influencer? Lets just say a guy wants to sell his house and buy a beaver to travel around in....

  11. #91
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    She IS an influencer. Just look at the influence she has over SJ.

    Web
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  12. #92
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    Just sayin' I am the lucky one here.

    One other question, this plane has the lower air induction. I think there was a compelling reason for preferring the upper one....but now I can't recall what it was. Is it a maintenance thing?

  13. #93
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    Laura, remember the biblical story of the slave and the lion with the thorn in it's paw? I look forward to my ride ;- )

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafi19 View Post
    Just sayin' I am the lucky one here.

    One other question, this plane has the lower air induction. I think there was a compelling reason for preferring the upper one....but now I can't recall what it was. Is it a maintenance thing?
    There are operators who swear by the upper air induction for float operations on beavers because water spray does not get pushed in there. However, I can tell you that I fly a float-equipped beaver with the lower induction and it works great. So I would not make any decisions about buying a beaver based on the location of that induction scoop, just get the best airplane you can.
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  15. #95

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    I will also add, have never flown a beaver without the tip tanks. Didn't know they existed. We don't use our tip tanks too often, but it is a huge bonus to have the option to do so.
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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafi19 View Post
    Just sayin' I am the lucky one here.

    One other question, this plane has the lower air induction. I think there was a compelling reason for preferring the upper one....but now I can't recall what it was. Is it a maintenance thing?
    1800 + hours in a Beaver with lower air induction, all in Kodiak, and all on floats....4580 floats, which a lot consider under floated. Never even gave it a thought.

    MTV
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  17. #97

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    I have upper induction but don’t think it matters. I had an engine rebuilt a couple years ago by Tulsa and can’t say enough good things - Rex was amazing to deal with and delivered on time and exactly as quoted. I have a couple hundred hours on it and am getting 10 hours to a litre of oil...and it doesn’t leak a drop which is unheard of! Sealand Aviation makes tip tanks so it’s not impossible to retrofit. They are indispensable for long trips.
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafi19 View Post
    Yup....just called on that one. Sounds ok....needs and engine overhaul of course, no tip tanks (which seems like a big deal when it burns so much an hour).
    Couple 55 gal drums of 100LL in the back and a hand pump for SJ on his birthday

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Laura, remember the biblical story of the slave and the lion with the thorn in it's paw? I look forward to my ride ;- )

    Glenn
    Roar! I know I owe you big Glenn! Felt like I was being shoed like a horse...but I could walk again after that thorn removal!

    Have heard good things about Tulsa, and spoke with Rex the other day. He was super helpful and I appreciated his information! Seems the ones in our comfort zone are in need of an overhaul at a miniumum.

    Have to look back at some of the ADs. Seems the more questions you ask, the more questions you have. I have started a spread sheet...but honestly, they are all so different from each other...I'm not sure it will help.

    cafi

  20. #100

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    Actually, needing an overhaul makes assessing an aircraft easier - at least you know what you have once it’s done. A word of warning though... the basic engine overhaul can be only part of the cost. I think I spent about the same or more on the re and re costs and all the accessories and miscellaneous costs. So rather than budget $50k for the engine rebuild I would double that number. I never add up receipts when it comes to aircraft...I don’t want to know what my fun costs!
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  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafi19 View Post
    Yup....just called on that one. Sounds ok....needs and engine overhaul of course, no tip tanks (which seems like a big deal when it burns so much an hour). He is going to send me some info. We would prefer the yoke on both sides...this has the swing over Anyone have first hand knowledge of this plane?
    I've seen it up close pre recent Part 135 ops, and know one of the previous owners "S.T.L." Do an owner history search for 2014: http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/AircraftQuery.shtm You might contact him. He has a remote camp near mine but gave up flying a few back.

    Gary
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  22. #102
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    Just heard about one that's nicely tricked out that is going to be for sale very shortly, Whip Amphibians and Federal Wheelskis, big Cargo door, fancy paint. They bought a Caravan��. It's not advertised but I can get you a phone number? PM if interested.
    E
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  23. #103

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    I don’t think they are in the market for an expensive, tricked out airplane.

    My guess is they’re in the low to mid $300s.
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  24. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafi19 View Post
    Just sayin' I am the lucky one here.

    One other question, this plane has the lower air induction. I think there was a compelling reason for preferring the upper one....but now I can't recall what it was. Is it a maintenance thing?
    Upper induction was a military thing to reduce the dust being sucked into the intake for desert ops. Most if not all military beavers had the tip tanks and extra riveting on the wing and are easier to up-gross. Lower induction is fine as others have stated. I like the look of the upper better but no big deal. Military beavers also had the 2 skylights which can be left in with an STC when converted back to civilian.
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  25. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCB View Post
    I have upper induction but don’t think it matters. I had an engine rebuilt a couple years ago by Tulsa and can’t say enough good things - Rex was amazing to deal with and delivered on time and exactly as quoted. I have a couple hundred hours on it and am getting 10 hours to a litre of oil...and it doesn’t leak a drop which is unheard of! Sealand Aviation makes tip tanks so it’s not impossible to retrofit. They are indispensable for long trips.
    Same experience with Tulsa engines. First class. On floats we never use our tip tanks as Aerocets have 2 huge compartments on each side so it much easier to grab fuel out of the float and add fuel standing on the float when needed rather than filling the tips but they do work well on wheels. You have about 4 hours fuel without reserve from the mains.
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  26. #106
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    Why would you need an STC to leave the skylights in? Are they called out to be removed by some regulation?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  27. #107
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    The theory, at least as I've been told by more than one person, is that the upper induction is less prone to carb ice because the air runs through the warm engine compartment prior to entering the carb, as opposed to the lower induction air going straight to the carb without any warming effect. Different environments, but I have had much more carb ice with the lower induction in Minnesota than I ever had in Alaska with the upper. On the flip side, I know some high-time Beaver guys that swear there is no difference between the two when it comes to carb ice.

    I've used the wing tanks on both floats and wheels quite a bit. As has been said here many times before: "What is the mission?" If you never plan on flying more than a couple hours and gas is readily available, then they are probably not required. If you are headed somewhere remote an hour or two away, you can put whatever you need in the tips, burn the front tank down and then transfer the wings in and land with almost full internals. Transferring up to 43 gallons from the wings is infinitely easier than doing the same from 5 gallon jugs. The problem with tips is that if they are used infrequently, the seals can dry out, and then when you go to use them, they either won't transfer or you can't shut them off.

    As far as engine overhauls go, I heard when I was down in Tulsa that Covington is more than likely going to get out of the radial business in the near future. I visited Tulsa Aircraft Engines and talked with Rex, and he assured me they are in for the radial business for the long haul. They have an impressive cylinder graveyard out back...

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  28. #108

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    From what I understand skylights were not available on civilian only military so to get back to civil they had to be removed in Canada anyway. There are actually a few things that have to be changed the get them back to civilian.

  29. #109
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    Henny beat me to it:

    WHAT IS YOUR MISSION???

    If your intent is to fly the entire coast of Alaska, now you might be seriously wanting tip tanks. If you plan to fly it down in the lower 48 where the question is not 'where is fuel', but 'where is cheap fuel', you will be just fine without them.

    Tips give you more range, agreed. As was stated by Henny, they require to be used to keep them working properly. Also, that is a bunch of weight out on the end of a wing that was not designed for it originally. So if you do short hops, you don't want that weight out there. Pretty standard view is to empty the tips quick so you land with them empty.

    Desert Scoop- For salt operations folks preferred the desert (top) scoop to limit salt in the engine. Some say they have less carb ice... but there is a gauge to tell you carb temp, and a handle to adjust to keep it out of ice conditions... another non-issue.

    Rule of thumb: Once a 985 makes it though 100 hours after overhaul, you can expect it to run to TBO. For value, figure out the actual cost to overhaul, including accessories, labor, shipping and such, and divide by 1,500, multiply that number by how many hours is remaining. Pretty simple on those engines as it really is a time limited engine.

    There was a set of landing gear on Barnstormers recently... and many float beavers have landing gear in the hangar somewhere. It is just parts.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henny View Post
    The theory, at least as I've been told by more than one person, is that the upper induction is less prone to carb ice because the air runs through the warm engine compartment prior to entering the carb, as opposed to the lower induction air going straight to the carb without any warming effect. Different environments, but I have had much more carb ice with the lower induction in Minnesota than I ever had in Alaska with the upper. On the flip side, I know some high-time Beaver guys that swear there is no difference between the two when it comes to carb ice.

    I've used the wing tanks on both floats and wheels quite a bit. As has been said here many times before: "What is the mission?" If you never plan on flying more than a couple hours and gas is readily available, then they are probably not required. If you are headed somewhere remote an hour or two away, you can put whatever you need in the tips, burn the front tank down and then transfer the wings in and land with almost full internals. Transferring up to 43 gallons from the wings is infinitely easier than doing the same from 5 gallon jugs. The problem with tips is that if they are used infrequently, the seals can dry out, and then when you go to use them, they either won't transfer or you can't shut them off.

    As far as engine overhauls go, I heard when I was down in Tulsa that Covington is more than likely going to get out of the radial business in the near future. I visited Tulsa Aircraft Engines and talked with Rex, and he assured me they are in for the radial business for the long haul. They have an impressive cylinder graveyard out back...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The Flight Manual (which is VERY complete for an aircraft of this vintage) specifies with lower induction to run sufficient carb heat continuously to maintain carb inlet temps above freezing. That’s what I did in Kodiak, never had any carb ice....in what’s arguably carb ice HQ. An air taxi outfit in Kodiak bought a Beaver, and parked it next to our airplane. One day the pilot came over and asked me about use of carb heat. I told him what the Flight Manual said, then asked if he’d read the manual....seems management hadn’t provided him with same. He’d been scaring the **** out of passengers by operating carb heat like you would in a Cessna. That carb heat system REALLY makes some heat, unlike the cabin heater.

    Same operator asked me later how my cabin heat was. I relied that it wasn’t super, but worked fine. His response was that he runs full cabin heat on most flights, but only gets a tiny bit of heat from vents. I looked over at their plane and pointed out that their cabin heat system, which is an extension of the exhaust stack and external, was not installed. I vowed never to allow a friend to fly on that air taxi.

    MTV
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  31. #111

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    I used to run an R985 with an NAR-9C2 carburetor. It has an automatic mixture control. The manual for that airplane also said to run carb heat to maintain something like 32 degrees C. I think they designed it so the carb heat actually gave some control over the mixture beyond the aneroid in the carburetor.


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  32. #112
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    Ok...someone suggested that the wings may be structurally stronger with the wing tanks. Any thoughts there? If it has a 4 hour range that might be fine. I guess the thought about resale should be considered too....but if most people aren't using their wing tanks much maybe not a factor. I do like the look of the upper induction....but again...if it isn't an issue...I can sacrifice that for a solid plane.

    Spent a bunch of time yesterday going through the list of ADs to familiarize myself specifically with the recurring ADs and at what frequency. There are a bunch for sure.

    Great information folks. We greatly appreciate all of your feed back.

    We are not afraid of a timed out engine....as has been said before....when you rebuild you know what you have. But...the price has to be right and it has to be factored in. That is where it gets difficult. The range is great.
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  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafi19 View Post
    Ok...someone suggested that the wings may be structurally stronger with the wing tanks. Any thoughts there?
    As a general rule of thumb when there is fuel in the tip tanks on any airplane, the answer is yes. Consider the lift on the wings must support the entire weight of the airplane. In so doing there is a bending moment on each portion of the wing. When the extra fuel weight is located at the wing tips that reduces the wing bending moments by the weight of the fuel times the distance of the wing tank from the center of the fuselage.

    This is why some airplanes with wing tip tanks are allowed to increase their gross weight by the weight of the fuel in those tanks. Only when there is fuel in those tanks.
    N1PA
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  34. #114

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    ADs don’t tell the whole story. The status of SBs are equally important.

    PM me an address and I will send you all my old paperwork.

  35. #115
    cafi19's Avatar
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    Besides the obvious Covid related issues....how difficult is it to re-register a Canadian plane in the US these days. I remember talking with someone years ago and it was a nightmare. Talked with someone more recently and it seems it was a 4 month process but that plane had been registered in the US in the past. We are looking at one right now that has not been registered in the US...appears (at first glance) to have all the ADs and SBs complied with. With the Canadian Covid restrictions, even if you are vaccinated you still have to quarantine there for 3 days so anyone know a good beaver mechanic that can do pre buys that is in Canada already in case we want to take a closer look at this one?

    Thanks!

  36. #116
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    For 'essential' travel, the quarantine might not apply, but person in Canada will have an easier time to move about. What region/area of Canada? It is a big place. If it is in the BC area Sea Land in Campbell River would get my nod. Those guys are the west coast go-to.


    I have not imported a plane recently, but in reality moving a plane south is not that complicated, but takes time.

    One of the advantages of a Canadian plane, especially one flown commercially, they require more documentation on everything, and I believe all Service buliuens are mandatory. Note: on a Beaver these are substantial- and may be why a Canadian plane is a good deal, the operator could be looking at a large investment to comply with SBs, selling and replacing might make sense to them.

    Now, coming south- it takes time for Transport Canada to deregister. It takes time to get the annual completed, and ensure all modifications are legal in the USA. What you will know when complete is that the plane is really airworthy.

    This is getting exciting!! Hope you find one that fits your wants!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  37. #117
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    This post makes me excited!

    cafi
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  38. #118

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    We live in Manitoba and have connections in the beaver world if thats any help.
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  39. #119
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    Well? How bout an update Laura?
    When everything is going wrong, and the world is bearing down on you.......GO FULL THROTTLE!!!

  40. #120
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    "Always looking up"

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