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Thread: Earthx ETX900-TSO + FAtlee Dodge Battery Box in a PA-18-95

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    Earthx ETX900-TSO + FAtlee Dodge Battery Box in a PA-18-95

    I already have a B&C generator and starter and I now am ready to lose 25 pounds (and several hundred $) from behind the back seat by dumping the old 30# battery.

    1. Has anyone been successful getting ETX900-TSO battery approved in a certified A/C? Process, 337 or what?

    2. Should I put it under the seat or is the firewall an option?

    3. Should I be concerned about sitting on top of a potential fire if under the seat?

    I don't know much about these batteries other than they are lightweight, powerful and expensive and potentially explosive if overcharged but hopefully the B&C generator, regulator and crowbar circuit prevents that.

    PS: Any "helpful" advice like "remove the electrical system and throw it away", don't, I already know that, and if I want to prop a plane I will fly my J3 which I have owned and propped for 30 years. Been there, done that, no more T-Shirts needed. I am spoiled now and I like pushing the button!

    Thanks ALL!

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    It's a good setup. I like them under the seat as it's handy for maintenance and away from engine heat. Realistically, it's light enough to put most anywhere handy. The fire thing comes up once in a while but these are NOT the 'lithium' batteries that you hear horror stories about. Different chemistry. I personally only know of one fire involving an EarthX and it took place when the system was first powered up, so I don't believe the battery was at fault. Read the instructions with the battery. EarthX usually states that a specific model battery cannot be used with an alternator above a certain size. So make sure your B&C is not larger than that limit.

    I'd replace the battery cables with new 4ga copper cables and put a master relay on the battery tray. Maybe a new braided ground from the crankcase to the fuselage tubes. That will give you an electrical system just like every other aircraft out there. And I'm one of those crazy guys that installs batteries and signs them off because they meet the requirements of CAR3.

    Web
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    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Legally, installing the battery would be no different than installing any other battery in the stock location since it's a TSO'd battery. Just a simple logbook entry notating the battery was replaced. The relocation of the battery from the stock location however is considered a major change and would require an STC as well as a form 337 to be submitted to the FAA to notify of a change.

    It would be best to relocate it to under the seat since Atlee has a nice STC'd battery relocation kit for that.

    Like was already said, the EarthX batteries are not a normal lithium battery but a lithium-iron battery that isn't prone to heating up/combusting like a Li/Ion type battery. No concern for fire with these batteries.
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    Where is your CG right now? I would recommend leaving the light weight battery in the original location behind the baggage, otherwise you will likely need ballast in the baggage compartment to offset the heavy nose you created. Ask me how I know...
    Last edited by MZ18; 03-08-2021 at 09:43 PM.
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    Moving a battery doesn’t require an STC or field approval BUT 43.13-2B doesn’t include lithium batteries, so that part may need an approval. I’ll leave that for others to sort. As for the battery on the firewall? Mine’s on the cabin side of the firewall. I’ve seen installations on the cowl side, too, but I was out of room on that side. I recommend the battery status light in the panel. My first battery flashed a code and had to be replaced. I never thought I was in danger but EarthX advised me not to fly it until the battery was replaced. Other than that my battery has been perfect. And to the alternator output? I recall that being an issue with the smaller batteries. The 900 has the capacity for any alternator you’re likely to have in a Cub.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MZ18 View Post
    Where is your CG right now? I would recommend leaving the light weight battery in the original location behind the baggage, otherwise you will likely need ballast in the baggage compartment to offset the heavy nose you created. Ask me how I know...
    Good point!


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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    "Moving a battery doesn’t require an STC or field approval"

    My FSDO guy said it did. CG change, and strength of mounting issues for "massive" items in the passenger space. Field approval was easy though. But that was one inspector in one FSDO.
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    courierguy's Avatar
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    This 30 second video of my test to destruction of one of my old e bike batteries was very reassuring. Note it was a quality battery, assembled in the US, with a well designed BMS, and with Samsung cells, NOT no name cells from China. The old battery: https://lunacycle.com/52v-mighty-min...-6ah-3-pounds/

    The video:https://youtu.be/-1W66PeBdac

    The new battery will be even better/safer, as it's fully potted in some type of silicone compound, and the connections are all done using ultrasound I believe. So having an EarthX in the plane is the least of my concerns, and it's mounted right on the floor, inside, in unused space between the rudder pedals it's so tiny.

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MZ18 View Post
    Where is your CG right now? I would recommend leaving the light weight battery in the original location behind the baggage, otherwise you will likely need ballast in the baggage compartment to offset the heavy nose you created. Ask me how I know...
    Quote Originally Posted by sdischer View Post
    Good point!
    Taking out 30 lbs and replacing it with 5.4 lbs is good. Shifting the CG forward, not so good. Better do some W&B calculations, you may find moving the battery further aft is the answer.
    N1PA

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Putting the battery under the front seat of a 90 hp Super Cub was a huge mistake on my part many years ago. CG is much better with it aft. Elevator effectiveness when slow was poor.
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Putting the battery under the front seat of a 90 hp Super Cub was a huge mistake on my part many years ago. CG is much better with it aft. Elevator effectiveness when slow was poor.
    Thanks. Experiences like this are very valuable. Leaving the battery where it is is also 10x easier for me!

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    I’ve never flown a plane without 30-40# of tools and “survival” stuff pushed into the back. If I had the chance to put an improved battery up front using new, shorter cables and save weight doing it? I’d do it and adjust the tag-along ballast for CG. Or install fixed ballast way aft if necessary. You’d still save weight while improving utility.

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdischer View Post
    Thanks. Experiences like this are very valuable. Leaving the battery where it is is also 10x easier for me!
    Still do a W&B. You may find it advantageous to add ballast at the tail post.
    N1PA

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Still do a W&B. You may find it advantageous to add ballast at the tail post.
    That has always been my advice for any proposed alteration. Work up a W&B for the proposed configuration before you commit to it. Do a full work up, most forward and most aft to see what it does to the usability of the airplane. Keep in mind, most airplanes prefer CG towards the back end of the envelope. Tailwheel airplanes land better, cruise speed will be greater. You do sacrifice some stability, but as long as it is within the envelope you are good.


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    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MZ18 View Post
    Where is your CG right now? I would recommend leaving the light weight battery in the original location behind the baggage, otherwise you will likely need ballast in the baggage compartment to offset the heavy nose you created. Ask me how I know...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    mine isn’t super nose heavy but I machined a steel spacer for the baby bushwheel. Adds 8lbs to the tail.
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    Use caution adding mass at the extreme end of the airplane. While bringing it into the published CG range, it can have a significant impact on spin characteristics. Think of a spinning object with all the mass on the extreme outside radius, lots of momentum. The TC for the Howard requires a placard for no intentional spins if ballast is installed on the rudder post!


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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    mine isn’t super nose heavy but I machined a steel spacer for the baby bushwheel. Adds 8lbs to the tail.
    Very innovative thinking!
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Use caution adding mass at the extreme end of the airplane. While bringing it into the published CG range, it can have a significant impact on spin characteristics. Think of a spinning object with all the mass on the extreme outside radius, lots of momentum. The TC for the Howard requires a placard for no intentional spins if ballast is installed on the rudder post!
    Did you ever spin the Howard? What was the nose down spinning angle?
    I had to place a roll of lead flashing at the tail post in my TCOW Cub on floats to get the stall break in order for the spin to happen. Then the nose was very low in the spin with no tendency to flatten. Too much lead in the tail would make for the situation you describe in a Cub, IF the plane's spinning angle was relatively level/flat under normal conditions.
    N1PA

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    mine isn’t super nose heavy but I machined a steel spacer for the baby bushwheel. Adds 8lbs to the tail.
    8 lbs all the way back in the tail seems like a LOT. What caused the need for it?

    Nice machine work and great thinking 'outside the box' by the way.

    Web
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    One characteristic of the EarthX is that they don't charge well when cold. We left mine in the original spot behind the baggage in the Maule for W&B issues. Charge issues a couple times in winter/fall.

    We are moving it forward now, and dealing with how to adjust the balance later.

    As an aside, It appears I will reduce weight 1.5 lbs by shortening up the cable.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    cubflier's Avatar
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    A consideration of mine as to where to mount the Earthx has to do with ease of connecting a jump pack. Under seat in a cub is ideal in that I can control all connections, start engine, manipulate throttle, and disconnect jump pack without doing any unusual yoga poses.

    I'm in the planning process of doing that my Maule too. George , if you come up with any clever ideas feel free to post them.

    Jerry
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubflier View Post
    A consideration of mine as to where to mount the Earthx has to do with ease of connecting a jump pack. Under seat in a cub is ideal in that I can control all connections, start engine, manipulate throttle, and disconnect jump pack without doing any unusual yoga poses.

    Jerry
    IF you have a jump pack concern rather than place the battery in an unfavorable location for CG purposes, just install a wire in a convenient location to connect the jump pack into the system. CG is more important than many seem to imagine.
    N1PA

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    8 lbs all the way back in the tail seems like a LOT. What caused the need for it?

    Nice machine work and great thinking 'outside the box' by the way.

    Web
    Tom is too cool to just gorilla tape 10lbs of lead to his tail spring like all the rest of us gentiles do before a STOL comp
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Bailing wire and holes clamps. The Gorilla tape is just to camouflage it.
    Steve Pierce

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    cubflier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    IF you have a jump pack concern rather than place the battery in an unfavorable location for CG purposes, just install a wire in a convenient location to connect the jump pack into the system. CG is more important than many seem to imagine.
    If you are that concerned about CG then keep the heavy battery in it's original location. CG is such a moving target in the way I fly that it's hard for me get worked up about such a simple utilitarian mod. I'll just move that propane bottle a little further aft.

    Jerry
    If it looks smooth...it might be

    If it looks rough...it is!!
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubflier View Post
    A consideration of mine as to where to mount the Earthx has to do with ease of connecting a jump pack. Under seat in a cub is ideal in that I can control all connections, start engine, manipulate throttle, and disconnect jump pack without doing any unusual yoga poses.

    I'm in the planning process of doing that my Maule too. George , if you come up with any clever ideas feel free to post them.

    Jerry
    I am going to be unconventional and creative in the Maule: Use the Maule placement under the right front seat where it is approved!

    To access slide the seat forward and flip it back.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    8 lbs all the way back in the tail seems like a LOT. What caused the need for it?

    Nice machine work and great thinking 'outside the box' by the way.

    Web
    Stock cub with the battery under the front seat. Front mount cooler the cg is forward. Gets worse when I take my crap out and fly in the stol contest. Brings the empty cg with low fuel a little bit further back to when the cub had the battery in the stock spot. Has an upper baggage now.


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    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Tom is too cool to just gorilla tape 10lbs of lead to his tail spring like all the rest of us gentiles do before a STOL comp
    If you can’t see it, it’s not there.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    If you can’t see it, it’s not there.


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    Are you referring to 10:1s or EarthX batteries?
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    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Are you referring to 10:1s or EarthX batteries?
    Heck some people even modify the airframe and jack up the incidence on certified cubs. But eagle eyes like Pierce see it and call them out.


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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Heck some people even modify the airframe and jack up the incidence on certified cubs. But eagle eyes like Pierce see it and call them out.


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    And lie their ass off about it. The tape measurer don't lie.
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    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    You could also mount an Enersys or Odyssey SBS-J16 battery in a modified mount in the stock location. Certified, extremely reliable, and lighter than something like a Gill battery. Not as light as an Earth-X but you could save some weight while also increasing battery power and staying within CG.

    Don't the early cubs have a access panel for the battery? Seems like it would be easy to pull that panel and hook up a jumper. Or...I and I know you'll hate this but...hand prop it if the battery dies.
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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    ...hand prop it if the battery dies.
    LOL! And away we go!



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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    You could also mount an Enersys or Odyssey SBS-J16 battery in a modified mount in the stock location. Certified, extremely reliable, and lighter than something like a Gill battery. Not as light as an Earth-X but you could save some weight while also increasing battery power and staying within CG.

    Don't the early cubs have a access panel for the battery? Seems like it would be easy to pull that panel and hook up a jumper. Or...I and I know you'll hate this but...hand prop it if the battery dies.
    That is what I ended up doing on the 90 hp and several 150/160 and a 180 hp. I use the battery box that is made by Hawker for the SBJ16 battery and install with Tee nuts and nut plates in the original battery hold down structure with AN3 bolts so I can get it in and out from the stock battery access hole.

    Still saves you weight, the battery last for a long time, probably less troublesome than an EarthX and way easier on the wallet.
    Steve Pierce

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Assuming Earth-X makes a battery that will fit into an Odyssey box, what's the price?
    I think an Odyssey SBS J16 goes for about $185 these days.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  36. #36
    sjohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Assuming Earth-X makes a battery that will fit into an Odyssey box, what's the price?
    I think an Odyssey SBS J16 goes for about $185 these days.
    The introductory price for the EarthX TSO battery is $699
    https://earthxbatteries.com/product-...ified-aircraft

    The certified EarthX battery was intriguing, until I saw the price.
    There are three simple rules for making consistently smooth landings. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    That is what I ended up doing on the 90 hp and several 150/160 and a 180 hp. I use the battery box that is made by Hawker for the SBJ16 battery and install with Tee nuts and nut plates in the original battery hold down structure with AN3 bolts so I can get it in and out from the stock battery access hole.

    Still saves you weight, the battery last for a long time, probably less troublesome than an EarthX and way easier on the wallet.
    I think I agree with you. I am not sure that the extra hassle and money is worth it for saving 10 more pounds. I think this is really the best of both worlds and maybe a few less tacos per day and I can lose the 10 pounds in the front seat LOL. Thank you for your response.


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    FdxLou's Avatar
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    Actually the EarthX at 5 lbs is 23 lbs lighter than a Concorde AGM at 28 lbs. So, $699- $180 = $519. Thats a cost of $22.56 per pound. Hard to beat that for a cost per pound of weight savings on an airplane!
    Lou

    Quote Originally Posted by sjohnson View Post
    The introductory price for the EarthX TSO battery is $699
    https://earthxbatteries.com/product-...ified-aircraft

    The certified EarthX battery was intriguing, until I saw the price.
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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    If you need the weight, use two!

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    Earthx ETX900-TSO + FAtlee Dodge Battery Box in a PA-18-95

    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Did you ever spin the Howard? What was the nose down spinning angle?
    I had to place a roll of lead flashing at the tail post in my TCOW Cub on floats to get the stall break in order for the spin to happen. Then the nose was very low in the spin with no tendency to flatten. Too much lead in the tail would make for the situation you describe in a Cub, IF the plane's spinning angle was relatively level/flat under normal conditions.
    Never did spin it. I put the tail ballast on almost as soon as I got it. I did loop and roll it. Not bad, but a lot of muscle needed to get it around.

    With old airplanes (actually any airplane). It is important to check your W&B. When I got the Howard, the last W&B data I could find was from back in the 1950s when the wheel pants were installed. From then, until I got it, all the military radio equipment from behind the baggage compartment was removed, and 1960s and 1970s vintage radios installed (MK 12 and KX170). When I recalculated the W&B, with just me, min fuel in the front tank, and full oil (most forward loading), the airplane was 10” forward of the forward limit! It took 21 lbs of lead on the tail to bring it back to the forward limit. Everything after that moved the CG aft, and the range was wide enough that you couldn’t get it out of CG as long as you stayed within the max gross and baggage limit.


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    Last edited by dgapilot; 03-11-2021 at 09:56 AM.
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