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Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

Steve, Look at this photo. Notice the tubing above the two main gear fittings. It looks very substantial to me.

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https://bearhawkaircraft.com/patrol-seaplane/
 
What would you want to customize on an EX3?

I guess that’s where I was going with the question. After reviewing the changes in the CC evolution, appears to me that the EX3 blends most of what folks typically want (but doesn’t allow for the “roll your own” aspects like the Javron and others).

Is there REALLY an issue with durability compared to, for example, a Javron or Backcountry?

That new cabin heat system in the EX3 is mighty nice. My dog would be happier in winter cabin runs. Wonder if that could be adapted into other craft...
 
Go fly the EX/FX3, it flies very nice. How long do you intend to own it? I maintain one with 800 plus hours, rode hard and put up wet. Been a few little issues, nothing major. There are pros and cons for sure but the do perform and fly nice.
 
Go fly the EX/FX3, it flies very nice. How long do you intend to own it? I maintain one with 800 plus hours, rode hard and put up wet. Been a few little issues, nothing major. There are pros and cons for sure but the do perform and fly nice.

I’d say for at least 10 years, which in hours for the Cub would be around 1,500.
 
The thing that tipped the scales for myself when I had the same questions as Johnny. Never mind that it lands so slow.
 

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The thing that tipped the scales for myself when I had the same questions as Johnny. Never mind that it lands so slow.

Oh my goodness! That is crazy good access for a Cub. No more hunking back twisting moose quarters over the rear seat!

How’s CG loading range? That much access must be enticing for overdoing it at times.
Ever think of putting on a pod?
 
Installing slats moves the aft CG limit 1”. This airplane likes weight aft. I keep about 50# of stuff shoved all the way back to make it more comfortable to fly. Taking a dog makes it even better. With aft ballast in 3 point the tail is heavy but the prop lifts it as soon as I apply full power. I haven’t needed to fly it heavy yet. I have the Wagon for that.

I have no need for a pod.
 
I just ran a sample W&B. If I’m sitting up front, I have 75# of gear in the second seat, 30 gallons of gas, and 500# in cargo? I’m a couple of inches forward of the aft limit. I can play with the numbers and move the load back some but I can’t imagine that being necessary.
 
EDIT: Just found your comments here
https://www.supercub.org/forum/show...180-Hp-and-Big-wheels-any-suggestions-on-kits


Stewart-
I’m a staunch believer in powered approach, relatively flat angle of attack (wings slightly aft of horizon), and tail low wheel landings. It keeps me out of trouble with burbles, wind reversals, swirlies and all the other joys of landing near rivers and canyons.
Thinking about those wing slats: At what point do your slats activate? If I’m descending with power for rate of descent, at my preferred AOA, then flaring it w/burst of throttle just moments before touchdown, are those slats going to be of much use? Or, are they much more active at high AOA’s? I’m not someone to hang on the prop for landings in remote areas. Too chicken (still alive!).

So now there are two of us who own what we recommend!

Attributes I’m unwilling to compromise on-
TK-1 suspension
Keller flaps
Backcountry slats. I might be willing to try Carbon Concepts but I like what I have.
35” Bushwheels
Monster size cargo door (upper longeron moved to the top)


Things that are fun-
Autopilot
Electric trim
Toe brakes
Constant speed prop
 
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Backcountry slats are open to some degree pretty much all the time. The amount of open depends on AOA/airspeed or some other magic I don't understand. I was never impressed with the super-high AOAs in the early slat demo videos. When Keller flaps were introduced and put onto slatted wings the AOA thing changed. Slatted airplane AOAs leveled out and they still flew just as slow. I fly my Cub in a very comfortable and familiar AOA. To take advantage of the slat's AOA capability I rely on relative wind and fly a steeper approach. To hit my spot I modulate throttle and honestly I need to get better at that. I can make excuses for the why but the bottom line is a little too much added power can send the plane climbing really quickly, and it doesn't take much. Modulating power on the final leg needs to be very subtle. When I miss on the slow side and the bottom feels like it's dropping out the TK-1s soak up the hit. I won't say I've never hit tailwheel first but it isn't my SOP.
 
Thanks for comments, folks.
No mention of the CC’s EX3 here. Perhaps because of lack of customization?

Most likely because your first post sounded like you wanted a working plane not a yuppie want to be bush plane.:wink::wink::wink: Figured I would stir the pot while it is still snowing.
DENNY
 
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But you can do this in a CC without stressing it.

yep, we might get one more wood cutting session in today before the weather hits. -50F w/windchill tonight.
818cbf69-a095-4d60-9d84-938e037f870c


Most likely because your first post sounded like you wanted a working plane not a yuppie want to be bush plane.:wink::wink::wink: Figured I would stir the pot while it is still snowing.
DENNY
 

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What a snitch!

My wife told me she was getting me a PA-18 a few Christmas’ back. Showed up in a 12” box. Durn it, Woman!

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If your a $300 RC model like that one

Glenn
 

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Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

I’d love an EX2, it much better fits my desired mission legs than my 85-90 mph cub, but just not as much as a Patrol does. Along with being out of my price range.

So as always it’s all about your mission.

There is always lots of talk about something flying like a cub. Not for nothing, I love the way most cubs fly. But I also like the way many airplanes fly. As long as their handling qualities suit the airplane and your mission, then it’s a winner. A Fouga Magister is a wonderfully balanced and harmonious jet to fly. A T6 is really stable doing rolls and loops. Who wants them to fly differently?

I’ve not flown one but from my viewpoint I think an SQ2/3 looks like a great slowspeed airplane.

I’ve flown a bunch of carbon cubs and loved all of them, although the F/EX3 is certainly the choice for sports.

Just brought a Maule M7-235 back from AZ. Seems like a good airplane - not for me but the owner really loves it and is selling his EX2 now. Why? The Maule fits his mission much better.
And he likes they way it flys. :)

So far the only ones I really don’t like flying are the super light ones - in the kitfox / Rans spectrum. Just too light.

Pb


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....many patrols seem to be in the ~1200-1250 lbs range for empty weight. If I’m not mistaken I they they are set up to be 2000 lbs gross. Not bad on wheels, but would be a little tight on amphibs right?

Has anyone seen Keller/PSTOl flaps on the patrol wing? I like the idea of flatter approach attitude...

As Dave mentioned the Patrol will be heavier unless you build it like Bob did or Bill Rusk. And yes they are designed for min 2000# gross. Two of the northeast Patrols will be Amphibs - so we should know in another year (for first one) how well it works in person.

Regarding Keller flaps a 4 place Bearhawk has a set installed out west, but haven’t been able to get hard data from the owner about before/after/etc. As the Patrol is quite a bit lighter and still has 9’ barn door flaps on each side, so far no one has wanted to invest the money to test the idea.

Skywagon8a, I love the flap handle placement from CubCrafters, it’s just a natural place for it to be ergonomically. I’m not ashamed to use what I think are great designs or ideas, there are some really good ones out there. The Patrol is deceivingly wide and an overhead handle would be even further away than in a Carbon Cub. Even with my wreck I have no qualms about having that there.

It also allows me to use a hard mounted 6 point harness instead of interia reels. Something I believe to be important in crash survivability.

Pb


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Peter, you want fast and slow? This will go to 90% of our playgrounds. Lives on a 800' strip. RV4 even better and cheaper

Glenn

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For you Bearhawk fans this came today: https://www.aviationpros.com/aircra...da|7122I1614801F4R&oly_enc_id=7122I1614801F4R
There is a new Model 5, 6 place said to have a larger cabin than a 185.

Bearhawk is a heck of a plane with good speed, STOL and useful load capabilities. I am unsure of the ease of build though. Rans, Kitfox and CubCrafters are pretty much lego kits with all the “hardware” included. I think you have to source stuff in the BH kits. If it were apples to apples relative to the kits, the BH seems to win in the performance categories. Who knows
 
Every time I see a Bearhawk I'm reminded how hard they are on the eyes. You definitely don't get the classic looks of a cub or even a Backcountry cub. Maybe it's just me but I prefer to enjoy looking at my vehicle of choice.

On the other hand they look like basically a big wing Maule essentially based on engine choice and the landing gear being a similar Oleo arrangement. Cub gear with Acme shocks beat out Maule gear every day of the week.

I'd say go with a Cub or one of the clones. A widebody cub would be good for your larger stature and Jay at Javron even offers a big door mod - Ask Denny about that one. The only advantage to a Bearhawk would be the cruise speed but like others have said once you throw big tires on the plane it really levels the playing field as far as speed is concerned.
 
Hmmm...
I don’t know how valid this informal comparison is, but good enough for conversation starter?

 
Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

Just to clarify the speed point, the 180 patrol on bushwheels is still far faster than a cub. Conservative speeds of 125. I’ve pulled a lot of data to make sure of these, and some of them are 130+. On small tires it’s 140.

Regarding looks, I’m in the same boat. I’ve seen very few 4 place that appeal to me. Just has no sex appeal.
The patrol on the other hand can look awesome.

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Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

Peter, you want fast and slow? This will go to 90% of our playgrounds. Lives on a 800' strip. RV4 even better and cheaper

Glenn

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I would love an -8. It would be a freaking fantastic second airplane. Just not the only airplane. Even John Fleurent doesn’t fly his -8 with a group of us, unless he just shows up direct. :)

My plan is to stick within the range of planes that fits our group of guys. I mean, who doesn’t want to fly with friends? :)

Although based on last night’s conversa....debate with the wife, I may not have anything to fly at all.


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Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

Bear in mind, my personal design goals is largely built around what I try to with my current cub.

-I want to make it Jim Cranes and back in one day, or Doug Turnbull’s, or Bowman, etc etc etc... which I can’t do currently and actually have time for lunch.
- I still want to hit the beach and bars like we do now. Although with a greater range I could also hit more.
- I need to keep the overhead cost the same. Hard to believe but it’s true - the 180hp and it’s cruise speed is actually less fuel burn per mile, in a shorter flight time, _AND_ no fuel stop needed. The admission cost is the only drawback. But operating cost and time managment is far better overall.

There are a number of players in this realm, the Carbon Cub E/FX3 for sure, but even the EX2 probably. The Husky. Rans S21 very likely but not seen yet. Rans S7. Likely some 180+ supercubs dressed for speed, but an additional 10-15-20mph in a cub takes power and that power burns fuel. So you need a different wing or less drag. Clint’s Cessna-Cubs do it.

Here in the northeast friends are always away and time is tight. Having the right tool in your hangar really makes a difference.


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Peter, it would be nice to have real world numbers. My only issue is there isn’t many flying, and like everything in aviation, I have noticed. But my product and save 10lbs, and it’s really only one or two pounds. Would be nice to have some un biased real world numbers.


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I'll be in a Cub forever. I can't walk away without looking back till my girl winks back at me

Glenn
 
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