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Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

Thanks Pete, for pulling me into this thread.

I usually don't post on here because it's a Supercub forum, I just occasionally look to see where people are meeting up. There are lots of interesting questions/comments here. One of them was how could you build a Patrol lighter: there are a few ways, like you could put a fixed pitch prop and very basic avionics like most old cubs have but when you aren't limited to certified rules it gets really easy to throw all kinds of stuff into the panel. My Patrol came in at 1269 empty with IO-360, full IFR glass panel, backup battery for that glass panel, constant speed prop, two axis auto pilot, etc.

I am not a STOL contest kind of guy, I love off airport - back country type flying but the shortest place I've landed are a few gravel bars that are a bit under 600'. I only needed half that and it wasn't even a little bit of a challenge but I also don't fly around light. That day I had over 40 gallons of gas, my 65 lb dog and a bit of camping gear on board. Of course it takes off shorter solo and light on gas but I don't plan to go into anywhere that I need to be that light.

I'm always ready to take pretty much anyone for a flight, I guess I should have offered at the WAD but I was just having fun and didn't think of it. The Patrol isn't a supercub, (that's funny - supercub forum edits supercub to superb but leaves Patrol alone) but for me it did a few things that were important along with being experimental which was very important to me. The heated seats I installed the other day being one small reason why I really like the experimental world.

I have yet to need more than 500 feet of runway. When you're talking about 500' strips, if you mean 500' with clear approaches and departures, the Patrol can do that at any weight if you are comfortable in it, if you mean 500' with trees on each end, nope. I'd be pretty impressed to see a cub do that though. One other thing though, all the bearhawks are designed to their recommended gross weight at utility category standards, since I built mine a bit heavy I set my max weight at 2100 and just make sure I don't exceed standard category loading when over 2000 lb - another advantage of experimental. (2100 allows me, my wife, two 65 lb dogs and 55 gallons of gas plus about a 30 lb buffer)

I hope none of this comes off as argumentative, there seems to be some doubt/cycnism about the capabilities of the Patrol or Bearhawk aircraft so I just thought I would chime in. I have flown each model of Bearhawk except for the Companion so maybe I'm not just making stuff up.
 
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A BH Companion (yes I like side by side seating) with a IO-390 would be my choice with 2 G5’s and a GX3 in the center. I suspect with that power to weight ratio it would take off short and land in under 500’ no problem

We can answer that question very soon. Although with an O-360, right Dave?

Shown here with his free help
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This sounds a lot like a Cub vs. Husky thread....stir[emoji6]
Bob's proto Patrol looked really impressive at the WAD. Never saw it enroute even when running 100-105 mph. The Bearhawks were way, way ahead...on 29" Bushwheels. Bob is cheap on gas so he probably wasn't burning much at those speeds.
It would be fun to see a light E-AB 180hp Cub and a good stick go head to head with Bob in his Patrol. I'd guess it would be real close for takeoff and landing with advantage to the Patrol in everything else except ruggedness of the Cub gear.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
One plus for sure is experimental. Just look at the thread about the legality of operating a Cub with the gear legs uncovered.... Seriously??? I’ll never own certified again, hopefully the feds will tire of dealing with light aircraft and allow an owner maintained category or something similar..
 
Happiness is having what you want, and wanting what you have. And 10 minutes yonder past the planes? The Knik River. Living the Alaska dream for 53 years and counting.
 

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Hey Stewart, where is your four legged traveling companion in that picture??

Living with those two planes attached to the house, in a warm hangar- LIFE IS GOOD!
 
My old companion went to doggie heaven. My new companion hadn’t found me yet, but we’re attached at the hip now!
 

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sounds about like what I’d be tempted to build, except at 1100#. I’d like some free lunch, and I’d like to have cake and eat it.


Thanks Pete, for pulling me into this thread.

I usually don't post on here because it's a Supercub forum, I just occasionally look to see where people are meeting up. There are lots of interesting questions/comments here. One of them was how could you build a Patrol lighter: there are a few ways, like you could put a fixed pitch prop and very basic avionics like most old cubs have but when you aren't limited to certified rules it gets really easy to throw all kinds of stuff into the panel. My Patrol came in at 1269 empty with IO-360, full IFR glass panel, backup battery for that glass panel, constant speed prop, two axis auto pilot, etc.

I am not a STOL contest kind of guy, I love off airport - back country type flying but the shortest place I've landed are a few gravel bars that are a bit under 600'. I only needed half that and it wasn't even a little bit of a challenge but I also don't fly around light. That day I had over 40 gallons of gas, my 65 lb dog and a bit of camping gear on board. Of course it takes off shorter solo and light on gas but I don't plan to go into anywhere that I need to be that light.

I'm always ready to take pretty much anyone for a flight, I guess I should have offered at the WAD but I was just having fun and didn't think of it. The Patrol isn't a supercub, (that's funny - supercub forum edits supercub to superb but leaves Patrol alone) but for me it did a few things that were important along with being experimental which was very important to me. The heated seats I installed the other day being one small reason why I really like the experimental world.

I have yet to need more than 500 feet of runway. When you're talking about 500' strips, if you mean 500' with clear approaches and departures, the Patrol can do that at any weight if you are comfortable in it, if you mean 500' with trees on each end, nope. I'd be pretty impressed to see a cub do that though. One other thing though, all the bearhawks are designed to their recommended gross weight at utility category standards, since I built mine a bit heavy I set my max weight at 2100 and just make sure I don't exceed standard category loading when over 2000 lb - another advantage of experimental. (2100 allows me, my wife, two 65 lb dogs and 55 gallons of gas plus about a 30 lb buffer)

I hope none of this comes off as argumentative, there seems to be some doubt/cycnism about the capabilities of the Patrol or Bearhawk aircraft so I just thought I would chime in. I have flown each model of Bearhawk except for the Companion so maybe I'm not just making stuff up.
 
FWIW? If I won a Bearhawk tomorrow I’d sell it and buy (build) another Cub. To each their own.

I miss Crash Jr’s dad. He’d have loved this discussion.
 
Happiness is having what you want, and wanting what you have. And 10 minutes yonder past the planes? The Knik River. Living the Alaska dream for 53 years and counting.

If you can’t be with the one you love, love the one you’re with.......
 
Photo and information is from the 2019 (I think) Bearhawk Calendar. Its a Patrol completed in 2013, with a Lyc O-360. Empty weight 1070. Don't think this would do 140 mph with the gear not covered and a fixed pitch prop.

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You seem to be in the know, I assume a it was a quick build kit, any idea on the build time?
This will serve as the proto Companion, yes from a kit. Kit was delivered July 20,2020, 1031 hours to date. That includes 50-60 hours of welding/mods that further kits won't need.
Still to do - final rigging of flaps/ailerons, wing root fairings, Install wing tips, W&B, fuel flow test
 
Okay, there we go! A proper aircraft to compare to an experimental cub. Greg Miller's old no electric O-360 powered cub Got Rocks is about the same weight as are a few others that I'm aware of with fabric interiors and whatnot but the lightest I've heard of is 1030 on 35's. Cub speeds around 95 at 2400.

So the Bearhawk is a true 20mph faster with an equivalent setup. More interior space as well apparently. A Bearhawk at that weight would obviously be a short field performer. The Maules built for a particular Alaskan guiding company in the last couple years are also very light and equivalent short field performance to a cub but with a faster cruise and more space...however...they also report that the planes are a bit more of a handful to work at low speed on short landing spots. Repeated takeoffs/landings to drop off and pick up hunters during a single day fatigue the pilot more than would be if a cub was being flown but the tradeoff is they don't have to make as many trips so it pencils out. I have to wonder if the Bearhawk is the same story where a good stick can do cub type things with it but it's not quite as forgiving as a cub.

Just trying to point out that there are generally no free lunches. The cub doesn't go very fast but that high lift wing can sure make things a lot easier when you're balancing on the edge of a stall. Something to chew on.
 
Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

I’d dare to say my cub has double the baggage as a patrol. Maybe the patrol is wider but it’s basically the stock cub baggage area. I have the big Atlee extended baggage and upper baggage and 180lb baggage floor with the big performance air door. The patrol kit I saw didn’t have a door. Granted that can be changed when you build it, but the flap cables ran where an extended baggage would go.


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This will serve as the proto Companion, yes from a kit. Kit was delivered July 20,2020, 1031 hours to date. That includes 50-60 hours of welding/mods that further kits won't need.
Still to do - final rigging of flaps/ailerons, wing root fairings, Install wing tips, W&B, fuel flow test

Over a 1000 hours is kinda my theoretical breaking point. I absolutely love the Companion, but Mark told me it was a 1000 hours, and being a first timer it would be more I am sure. Looking at Colby Osborn’s videos it looked more kit’ish than fabricating. I could see myself assembling things, but not welding etc.

Everything is a trade off, and the BH looks like the perfect plane for what I would want and the price is right figuring about $100K for a new plane. I like the <400’ landing, cruising at 125-130 with 29” tires and 2000 pounds. I don’t need to land in moose camps, just backcountry fishing spots.
 
Jay there is no welding. Dave changed some things at Bob’s request since it was the first factory built fuselage for a Companion model.


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Alaska fish &amp; hunt - Patrol or Cub

If anyone uses flightradar24 similar, they can look up Rollie’s Patrol N1618W as he has a number of out and back flights on the same day for ADSB ground speed comparison. It’s obvious to see how you can average them to 120-125.

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I’d dare to say my cub has double the baggage as a patrol. Maybe the patrol is wider but it’s basically the stock cub baggage area. I have the big Atlee extended baggage and upper baggage and 180lb baggage floor with the big performance air door. The patrol kit I saw didn’t have a door. Granted that can be changed when you build it, but the flap cables ran where an extended baggage would go.


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I’d say you’re right Tom. But the key here is
“ I have the big Atlee extended baggage and upper baggage and 180lb baggage floor with the big performance air door.”

If you build a version of these same items into the patrol then you’d have them as well.
The oem flap cable coming into the center would change, that’s hardly a hurtle if you’re adding everything else.

As someone else said, it may be more of a direct comparison to a husky than a cub, I would agree with speeds and weights.

And we love to compare, but at the end of the day you fly what meets your personal mission, or as close as you personally can get. :)


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Doesn't Bill Rusk get 100 mph with an 84/43 throttled back. I wouldn't think there is a true 20mph difference on big tires with the same prop, especially the flatter the prop. 84/46 seems like a lot of pitch for a stock O-360.

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So the Bearhawk is a true 20mph faster with an equivalent setup. More interior space as well apparently. A Bearhawk at that weight would obviously be a short field performer.

Just trying to point out that there are generally no free lunches. The cub doesn't go very fast but that high lift wing can sure make things a lot easier when you're balancing on the edge of a stall. Something to chew on.

No free lunches. That additional 20 mph takes away some at the low end, so I could not call it a “short field performer” in the same sense as a cub. Under 500’ at gross everyday, but stall is closer to 40 than 30, and in hardcore cub world that’s the meal ticket. As you said, high lift wing is slower on both ends.



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BD Maule built the M4 10 years after the Pacer came out. Maule was basically just a Georgia hot rodder who decided that Pacer could use some more power so strapped a Continental O-300 to the nose and graced it with his own name.

And proceeded to ruin those classic Piper lines in the process.

FYI
BD Maulle was from Ohio worked for Lycoming and began building Maule Aircraft in Michigan before relocating to Georgia.


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You really think you could build a good performing Patrol or similar for $100K? That would be a surprise to me! Nice if you could, though...

Over a 1000 hours is kinda my theoretical breaking point. I absolutely love the Companion, but Mark told me it was a 1000 hours, and being a first timer it would be more I am sure. Looking at Colby Osborn’s videos it looked more kit’ish than fabricating. I could see myself assembling things, but not welding etc.

Everything is a trade off, and the BH looks like the perfect plane for what I would want and the price is right figuring about $100K for a new plane. I like the <400’ landing, cruising at 125-130 with 29” tires and 2000 pounds. I don’t need to land in moose camps, just backcountry fishing spots.
 
You really think you could build a good performing Patrol or similar for $100K? That would be a surprise to me! Nice if you could, though...

Maybe the number was rounded down 8)

Since that post I just spent a nearly 2 hours reading about BH builds and Build threads. As much as I would like to do it, I am mostly seeing 3-5 year and up build times. Dude in NZ did it in 18 months which is a pretty fast one it seems.

Many have said just buy a Maule, that might be the best option :)
 
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