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Thread: Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

  1. #81
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Comparisons that revolve around cruise speed and fuel burn make me laugh. If that's your mission get an RV-7 or a Mooney. It's like bragging how well your lifted Jeep does on the highway.

    We will all get where we're going but only some of us will be able to land there.

  2. #82

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    The attractive attributes for the perfect second plane are very different than the perfect only plane. That’s my story, anyhow.

    I’m a fan of another 6-place kit plane on the market.
    Last edited by stewartb; 03-05-2021 at 10:03 AM.
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  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Comparisons that revolve around cruise speed and fuel burn make me laugh. If that's your mission get an RV-7 or a Mooney. It's like bragging how well your lifted Jeep does on the highway.

    We will all get where we're going but only some of us will be able to land there.
    It seems to me like you just changed this discussion into a Patrol vs RV-7. Why did you do that? Lets keep this thread focused on the Cub, the Patrol, and good data.
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  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcone1381 View Post
    It seems to me like you just changed this discussion into a Patrol vs RV-7. Why did you do that? Lets keep this thread focused on the Cub, the Patrol, and good data.
    I disagree. This is what makes this forum informative and entertaining. I’ll read through an entire thread that I’m not interested in because a lot of times there will be an offshoot of information that is informative (wether it pertained to the original subject or not). Wikipedia has good information if taken with a grain of salt but often reads like an encyclopedia. This has personality.
    Last edited by KevinJ; 03-05-2021 at 02:07 PM.
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  5. #85
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Comparisons that revolve around cruise speed and fuel burn make me laugh. If that's your mission get an RV-7 or a Mooney. It's like bragging how well your lifted Jeep does on the highway.

    We will all get where we're going but only some of us will be able to land there.
    I had to chuckle at your post because of what it reminded me of. While looking at airplanes on the ramp in Fairbanks several years ago with a local friend we came upon a Bonanza which looked out of place there and I commented as much. He said oh no, the owner claims that is the best Bush plane in Alaska. I said, really, hw is that? He said that he can get anywhere in Alaska faster than most and pay some Cub driver to wreck his airplane getting him into his favorite fishing spot.

    Just for you Kevin. No as to the ADS-B problem and the proper way to shoe that horse...
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  6. #86
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

    I think bconeís point was that itís misleading.

    Why canít a guy that flys off airport be concerned with fuel burn and speed? Still have to travel, unless you have multiple airplanes. Still have to buy fuel, it adds up. Most of the guys I know want to fly more..... and Iíve heard from owners all the way to the top end about $200/300+ days and wives seeing the charges come rolling through.


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  7. #87
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Wait, your wives donít support your aviation addiction? And donít say Jeeze I think we need some anfibs


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  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Wait, your wives don’t support your aviation addiction? And don’t say Jeeze I think we need some anfibs


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    No....and if a new part has fresh paint or new Bushwheels look too black they both get dirt rubbed on them

    Please stay on topic Mr Ford.....

  9. #89
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    No....and if a new part has fresh paint or new Bushwheels look too black they both get dirt rubbed on them
    Cause if not I am sure April will get even.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I think bconeís point was that itís misleading.

    Why canít a guy that flys off airport be concerned with fuel burn and speed? Still have to travel, unless you have multiple airplanes. Still have to buy fuel, it adds up. Most of the guys I know want to fly more..... and Iíve heard from owners all the way to the top end about $200/300+ days and wives seeing the charges come rolling through.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    I've had a private checking account for airplane stuff for almost 30 years. All my part time little jobs money goes in it. No wonder your in trouble

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    Hmmm...
    I donít know how valid this informal comparison is, but good enough for conversation starter?

    So that patrol belongs to the company I think and was loaned for the YouTube exposure. I know that they should be built light, but thatís the company ownerís plane, doesnít have an interior really and weighs 1230. I appreciate Billís Javron being not only light, but has a reasonable level of comfort. How could one build a patrol 150 pounds lighter than this one, and still have it be practical and comfortable?
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  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt911 View Post
    So that patrol belongs to the company I think and was loaned for the YouTube exposure. I know that they should be built light, but thatís the company ownerís plane, doesnít have an interior really and weighs 1230. I appreciate Billís Javron being not only light, but has a reasonable level of comfort. How could one build a patrol 150 pounds lighter than this one, and still have it be practical and comfortable?
    That one could have been built differently but not have been built lighter (with a fully finished interior). Thatís part of the trade off. Itís got a lot of steel in it, and that adds up.

    On a side note the kit company owner in TX that owns that one isnít a pilot/flyer like we are on here. He simply subbed the build out to a local mechanic and had it assembled, so little care or thought was put into making it anything more than average.

    Slightly different but still frugal, Bob Burrows the designer in VA knows how to make them light, but he forgoes any sense of interior, panel or electric. A bit sparse for me!

    Pb


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...

  13. #93

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    The only Bearhawk I’ve watched fly is a 4-place. The only time it’s impressed me is in the wind, and the things that make a plane good in the wind are counter to what makes a good STOL plane. Somebody mentioned good data. How many STOL competitions have Bearhawks won?
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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The only Bearhawk I’ve watched fly is a 4-place. The only time it’s impressed me is in the wind, and the things that make a plane good in the wind are counter to what makes a good STOL plane. Somebody mentioned good data. How many STOL competitions have Bearhawks won?
    I watched Bob Barrows and his wife depart in his Patrol. I was shocked at what his desired take off line was, and how quickly it was airborne and climbing.

    STOL comps are cool, but lets all admit that most winners today are not set up or built for daily abuse in moose camp. The Patrol I would expect to survive a full season without it getting torn up.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  15. #95

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    Is that data?
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  16. #96
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    This is a Cub board. Looking for positive comments about anything other than a Cub here is like going on the Corvette forum and talking about your Cobra kit car. The pilot skill is the measure of an airplane. Plenty of empty suits flying around in hot rod Cubs making 350 ft take offs.
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie View Post
    This is a Cub board. Looking for positive comments about anything other than a Cub here is like going on the Corvette forum and talking about your Cobra kit car. The pilot skill is the measure of an airplane. Plenty of empty suits flying around in hot rod Cubs making 350 ft take offs.
    Bob Barrows is an aeronautical genius. Just not classic enough for me. But his sh!t is amazing

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  18. #98

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    The question was for Alaska from a guy who already has a PPonk 180. That’s a pretty narrow focus.
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  19. #99
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    ....Plus, I really miss flying a tandem with a light stick

    .....Mission is mostly to get to where the fish and game and good camping are in AK. Needs to work with wheels, skis and perhaps floats. I’m comfortable w/TIG work, but would rather begin with a relatively complete kit for my first time build

    ....I tend to fly heavy into rough areas with gear, game, hunting partner, etc. and want to handle 500’ coming and going at gross without sweating too much. So, a rugged build with high power to weight.
    You want to keep the discussion germane? Okay here are the requirements.

    The Bearhawk as far as I can tell ticks absolutely none of these boxes.

    -500ft loaded to gross? Maybe a Bearhawk could do it...We all know a Cub can

    -High power to weight? Show me a light Bearhawk and I'll show you a lighter cub with more power.

    I didn't at any point see a requirement for cruising at 125mph or sipping fuel in there. Instead of taking advice from internet experts who have a vested interest in defending whatever plane they fly or kit they are building, just look at what the real hunters and guides fly. They all fly either Cubs (guides) or SQ2/Backcountry Rev2's (recreational). They just flat out work and even though they aren't the fastest or most efficient they still get you to where you're going maybe just 30-40 minutes later than the alternative...but what's a half hour in the grand scheme?
    Last edited by Crash, Jr.; 03-06-2021 at 01:56 AM.
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  20. #100
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Bob Barrows talks about his design.
    N1PA
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  21. #101
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    Absolutely not true Crash, come on. Now who's defending what plane they fly? I'm realistic about the genuine benefits of a Cub and understand most here are going to always favor them over any other similar type aircraft, that's just the way it is, I understand it and respect it and I at least am not trying to take anything away from the Cub. I'm flying a '52 that I lovingly restored with most of the common mods and like I'm loving it. I've also built a Bearhawk 4 place, Bearhawk LSA, Bearhawk Companion and now a Bearhawk Patrol so I know a bit about the design and I think I can speak with some knowledge about the differences.
    The quote you posted above speaks of 3 things that the Bearhawk Patrol absolutely ticks the boxes on.
    1/ Tandem (Patrol, LSA) with a light stick - The stick, torque tube, push/pull tubes are all set up on bearing surfaces using a variety of rod end bearings. The controls are smoother than you can imagine, the ailerons are powerful (22 inch cord) and balanced and it all results in a very light stick, much lighter than my Cub.
    2/ Mission is subjective but to get to where the fish and game is and camping, the Patrol really shines here. Not only will it get you there and back but will do it 30 percent faster if you want and not if you don't and you'll have more room for the stuff you carry. The Bearhawk is a complete kit, hell for stout gas welded 4130 construction. Longerons are 3/4 .035 and .049 etc. All aluminum wings come from the factory at an advanced stage with just the bottom skins needing riveting. All Beahawk specific parts are included in the kit, no hardware or common parts. They have all been put on wheels, skis and floats, standard stuff.
    3/ High power to weight. Patrol can take a 200 hp motor and should easily weigh in under 1200. Many Patrols I've seen built have had lots of creature comforts like leather seats, full interiors, lots of paint etc. These guys and gals that built them haven't been as concerned about weight as you might be but that's what they wanted. Again the proto was 950 lbs with an O360.

    No defense here just can't let that go without some reality check. That's all I try to put out here with regard to the Bearhawk line, when someone asks. I understand they're not for everyone but don't discount them just because your blood runs cub yellow. Or worse, portray them as some poser airplane.
    By the way I am not an internet expert and have no vested interest in the Bearhawk or the company at all and don't give a damn if you buy one or not. Just think they're nice little airplanes that by design addressed many of the cub shortcomings and deserve a little respect. I get why you would want a Cub if you are concerned about tearing it up in the backcountry and need to get parts or repairs quickly, no plane will best the cub in that area.
    Come on Crash, say it with me - Bearhawk.
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  22. #102
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    Who wouldn’t want to have the ability to cruise a little faster and have a little better efficiency?

    Dave, if you say they can be built light with a reasonable degree of creature comforts, you certainly know much more than most.

    Since they are designed to be 2000# gross at utility category standards, would it be reasonable/safe for a builder to declare the gross weight is 2200# on floats operating in the standard category?
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  23. #103
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    I think it already is 2200 on floats, let me check. The four place is 2500/2700 on floats

  24. #104
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    Since it is E-AB "amateur-built", it is the builder who is the final determiner of the max gross weight. If the builder looks into the limits set by Barrows and understands what those are and mean, he can safely set higher limits. There are books on this topic, I'll not go into the details here.
    N1PA
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  25. #105
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Bob Barrows has a lot going on in his head. I've been to one of his fall picnics at his home airstrip in VA and how he goes about what he does is just as impressive as the Bearhawk designs themselves. No fancy equipment, mostly hand tools are used in his prototypes. He has slowed down a bit the last few years but the wheels are always turning in his head. He has never made any claims about his designs that he couldn't back up. His personal airplanes are so simple that if you take away one part you don't have an airplane. Its not his fault that builders turn their Bearhawks into Lincoln Towncars. I've said this before if I had to be in an accident in a tube fuselage airplane my choice would a Bearhawk. Its great to have choices.
    Last edited by Cub junkie; 03-06-2021 at 05:44 PM. Reason: deleted a sentence
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  26. #106
    JimParker256's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The only Bearhawk Iíve watched fly is a 4-place. The only time itís impressed me is in the wind, and the things that make a plane good in the wind are counter to what makes a good STOL plane. Somebody mentioned good data. How many STOL competitions have Bearhawks won?
    Jonathan Battson flies an older "A" model Bearhawk 4-place that he built. He has won the STOL competition down in New Zealand every year for the past 3-4 years, against all comers in the 2500+ GW class. This year, he posted better distances than a lot of the MUCH lighter aircraft classes.

    A couple of years ago, at the Llano, TX STOL competition, a guy flying the Bearhawk LSA demonstrator came in second in that competition. And that's with no flaps, in an airplane he saw for the first time 2 days earlier when he flew it from the Austin area (Bearhawk factory owner's strip) to Llano. I flew with that guy at OSH, and he is a superb pilot.

    I'm not saying that a stock Patrol can (or will) beat a heavily modified SuperCub Ė much less the CC or (insert your favorite hot-rodded Cub knock-off here) Ė in a pure STOL competition, but I strongly suspect that the difference is a lot less than the difference in pilot skill levels. And we've never seen a Patrol that has been optimized for STOL competition purposes Ė no one who's built one has felt the necessity of doing so.

    But for some of us, better cruise performance would make a huge difference to our "back country" flying. After all, you gotta "get there" before you can play... We're not all fortunate enough to live in Idaho or Alaska... For me, just to GET to Colorado / Utah / Idaho requires a healthy cross-country flight. I made the flight from Utah to Dallas in an airplane that cruised at 95 mph (AKA Ė Cub speed), into a 35 mph headwind. What would have been an 12 hour cross-country in still air turned into 18.5 hours of flight time, with 5 fuel stops (@30 min each) over a 2-day period.

    Making that flight in the same wind conditions in a Patrol (145 mph cruise) would have taken 10 hours, with only a single stop for fuel. That would make flying up to Idaho (for instance), spending a few days flying up there, then flying back home a much more reasonable proposition...

    So I would say that for me, I'd rather have a Patrol that can "only" take off and land (sea level) in 250 ft (but also cruises at 145-150) than a Cub that might take off 20% shorter (200 ft) and cruise at 95-100 mph. To each his own...
    Jim Parker
    2007 Rans S-6ES
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  27. #107
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    You want to keep the discussion germane? Okay here are the requirements.

    The Bearhawk as far as I can tell ticks absolutely none of these boxes.

    -500ft loaded to gross? Maybe a Bearhawk could do it...We all know a Cub can

    -High power to weight? Show me a light Bearhawk and I'll show you a lighter cub with more power.

    I didn't at any point see a requirement for cruising at 125mph or sipping fuel in there. Instead of taking advice from internet experts who have a vested interest in defending whatever plane they fly or kit they are building, just look at what the real hunters and guides fly. They all fly either Cubs (guides) or SQ2/Backcountry Rev2's (recreational). They just flat out work and even though they aren't the fastest or most efficient they still get you to where you're going maybe just 30-40 minutes later than the alternative...but what's a half hour in the grand scheme?
    I don't fly, not building, nor own a Bearhawk. I have flown beside a few.

    I seem to recall the SQ taking lots of criticism for it's appearance a number of years ago, and Dakota slot wings being criticized as not being needed...

    Why speed? From home to reach my moose camp up north I need to jump over Canada, almost 400 miles just to get over the border, then another 75 to fuel.

    I have spent many hours droning across Alaska in a cub. Fifteen minutes sooner into a fishing hole in the evening, and able to stay fifteen minutes later before going home might add 20% to a nights time on the river.

    Remember when the old guys said Loran wasn't needed?

    Great to have options.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  28. #108

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    Was hoping for short strip performance numbers w/DA calcs, etc. Not much data in there. Nice to read about Bobís adventure, though!
    Quote Originally Posted by bcone1381 View Post
    I am building a Patrol. I like real data, and through others might too.

    Here is a trip report that Bob Barrows wrote up that is a side by side comparison of the Patrol against a Smith Supercub. The short story. The cub was a Smith Cub, O-360 with 10:1 compression. Trip to Idaho from Fincastle. Leg 1 to Randolf County, Indiana. Bob arrived 30 minutes ahead of the cub, used 30% less fuel, 18" MP, 2500 RPM, 50% power burned 7gph.

    This was in 2009. The Patrol capability is a well kept secrete. Time to get the word out.
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CZj...ew?usp=sharing

  29. #109

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    SC.org has grown to something well beyond a fanboy site.
    Agreed on your last sentence.
    Personally, I want to use an airplane largely to get to places away from people, not to be around or to entertain them (present company excluded, of course...).


    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie View Post
    This is a Cub board. Looking for positive comments about anything other than a Cub here is like going on the Corvette forum and talking about your Cobra kit car. The pilot skill is the measure of an airplane. Plenty of empty suits flying around in hot rod Cubs making 350 ft take offs.

  30. #110
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    Flying across the high desert right now in the RANS, coming back from Salmon, making 84 mph, better then the 56 earlier: helps that I'm only burning 3.5 gph as I will be up here a while. Still, most of my flying is local putzimg around, and doing it at 125. Per wouldn't make it more fun. We all need 2 planes, bottom line.
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  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    Flying across the high desert right now in the RANS, coming back from Salmon, making 84 mph, better then the 56 earlier: helps that I'm only burning 3.5 gph as I will be up here a while. Still, most of my flying is local putzimg around, and doing it at 125. Per wouldn't make it more fun. We all need 2 planes, bottom line.
    A Bearhawk that cruises at 130mph can slowdown to 70 mph for sightseeing no problem. But a 100mph plane can’t necessarily speed up to 130mph.

    Everything in boating and aviation is a trade off

  32. #112
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    70 is slow, who knew?! For sure on the tradeoff thing, but I made a few .mountain ski landings that I doubt a patrol or many Cubs would. Now the slow flight home is payback time.
    But my 400" strip will be a piece of cake. If the LSA version Patrol had flaps, I'd have one by now. Don't want to ok feed a 0360, too cheap.

  33. #113
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I hear a lot of "Bearhawk cruises at 130...135...160" but lets see it on 31's or 35's. I see a lot of owners here that have or do still own one but not too many on big tires that actually fly into/out of 500' strips loaded. Anybody have real world experience with this or are we just reciting info off the Bearhawk website?

    Seems like a lot of marketing and bluster from the Bearhawk people. Love that "comparison" on the website comparing a Patrol to a PA-18. Like my dad said, you can either fly a Cub or be forever comparing your plane to one.

  34. #114
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    Bluster? Nooo. That connotation is that itís chest puffing, ego talking, boasting. You can doubt it, sure. But donít knock it till you try it.
    And no, youíre not flying 160 in a 180 patrol. Iíve not seen that suggestion either.


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  35. #115
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    From the website: "Or at a more brisk 150+ mph pace, you have more than five hours endurance."

    Yeah I suppose I need to try one before I knock it. But then again when you fly the best light aircraft ever made why would you debase yourself with a lesser plane?


    Just kidding obviously! Hope the Bearhawk gang is having a good morning and you better have the coffee on by the time I drag into moose camp an hour late!
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  36. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    70 is slow, who knew?! For sure on the tradeoff thing, but I made a few .mountain ski landings that I doubt a patrol or many Cubs would. Now the slow flight home is payback time.
    But my 400" strip will be a piece of cake. If the LSA version Patrol had flaps, I'd have one by now. Don't want to ok feed a 0360, too cheap.
    Wow, 33ft is really short!
    Catch the fish, to make the money, to buy the bread, to gather the strength, to catch the fish...
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  37. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie View Post
    Bob himself is recovering from an accident that he survived.
    Very few people recover from accidents that they DON'T survive.


    I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. Yes I knew what you meant, but I'm just not that nice a person.

  38. #118
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    From the website: "Or at a more brisk 150+ mph pace, you have more than five hours endurance."

    Yeah I suppose I need to try one before I knock it. But then again when you fly the best light aircraft ever made why would you debase yourself with a lesser plane?


    Just kidding obviously! Hope the Bearhawk gang is having a good morning and you better have the coffee on by the time I drag into moose camp an hour late!
    Hahah! Damn straight. But then I probably couldnít find your camp let alone land there. Maybe I can hire a kilt wearing Maule driver to show me the way.

    The B/H website leaves a lot to be desired. That 150 number is probably with roller skates for tires and all levers forward. I see a conservative cruise number at low altitudes is 125. Thatís what my real world numbers have shown, although some pilots experience may differ.


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
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  39. #119
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    A BH Companion (yes I like side by side seating) with a IO-390 would be my choice with 2 G5’s and a GX3 in the center. I suspect with that power to weight ratio it would take off short and land in under 500’ no problem
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  40. #120
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    I should've hit the edit button on that one but I didn't think we had that many A holes on here. I have a limited english structure capability. Probably why I should stay in the workshop and let the literary giants take care of poorly written forum posts like mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedOwlAirfield View Post
    Very few people recover from accidents that they DON'T survive.


    I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. Yes I knew what you meant, but I'm just not that nice a person.
    Likes 40m liked this post

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