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Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

JohnnyR

SPONSOR
AK, ME - what time of year is it?
Folks, could use some guidance and insight. I’ve been reading so many posts on different airframes that my head is swimming.

Our ‘73 C180 is a great plane and we’re keeping it, but at 1,900 lbs on bush wheels it’s not an outstanding short strip performer even with the PPonk and 3-blade MT.

Plus, I really miss flying a tandem with a light stick.

Am constantly returning to the idea of building a PA-18 or similar because 1) I love working on machines and like the idea of flying and maintaining something that I built myself; 2) I want substantially more off-airport wheel and ski performance; and 3) I really enjoy flying tandem aircraft.

Mission is mostly to get to where the fish and game and good camping are in AK. Needs to work with wheels, skis and perhaps floats. I’m comfortable w/TIG work, but would rather begin with a relatively complete kit for my first time build.

The Bearhawk Patrol seems to tick a bunch of boxes (including short perf + good range), but so much groundwork and mods have already been done in the world of PA-18 variants that it’s hard to turn away from those. It’s not a minor issue - for example, I don’t think anyone yet makes a pod for the Patrol. Molding and laying up fiberglass is fine, but one more thing to do.

I tend to fly heavy into rough areas with gear, game, hunting partner, etc. and want to handle 500’ coming and going at gross without sweating too much. So, a rugged build with high power to weight.

Finally, I’m 6’1 and 200lbs with broad shoulders, so not tiny. Never had a problem getting in and out of PA-18’s, but I’m not getting younger 😂

I bet somebody is going to say sell the 180 and get a light, stripped down 185 w/550. Not a tandem, so loses some charm...
 
Well, we are on a SuperCub site. IT has history. WE have history. And of course, it's a proven machine with mods on every side.

That said, I'll batter up for a minute and say that the Patrol deserves a very close look. It likely leans more to a "traveler" than the cub does, with it's slightly higher stall speed and much higher cruise speed, but it will carry the load too. Quite a bit wider than a certified cub, American sized pilots can reach the flap handle without effort, and I've already planned out the overhead flap mod, using cubcrafters design. (If the assembly was wider could almost use their handle as is)

I've got a cub, but my next airplane will very likely be a Patrol.

pb

edit : in the northeast alone, we now have two Patrols in construction, one model Five, and one Patrol on order. Hopefully will have another Patrol order soon.
 
Like Steve P has always said, there is a lot of knockoffs of the supercub. Must be a good reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Like Steve P has always said, there is a lot of knockoffs of the supercub. Must be a good reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tom, I wonder who John and Peter are going to fly around with? :cheers
They probably will get matching flight suits

Glenn
 
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Interesting results chart from NZ the other day. Jon Battson (sp?) does know his airplane well, but that said he bested some supercubs in lighter classes. I believe he has a 4 place bearhawk, so in theory the lighter Patrol should be able to best that.
End of the day the best pilot will outfly others no matter what airplane they're in.

Measurements are in meters. (26 meters is 85 feet)
http://www.marlboroughaeroclub.co.nz/uploads/pdf/HB/Results 2021.pdf
 
Tom, I wonder who John and Peter are going to fly around with? :cheers
They probably with get matching flight suits

Glenn

hahahah! The same guys that Fleurent, Guhr, Symon, Mathers, Crane, Keneston, and the rest of the non-pa-18 guys fly with of course. :)
 
1. I usually fly commando
2. The whole point of a high performer is to get away from you scoundrels
 
Am constantly returning to the idea of building a PA-18 or similar because 1) I love working on machines and like the idea of flying and maintaining something that I built myself; 2) I want substantially more off-airport wheel and ski performance; and 3) I really enjoy flying tandem.

I tend to fly heavy into rough areas with gear, game, hunting partner, etc. and want to handle 500’ coming and going at gross without sweating too much. So, a rugged build with high power to weight.

Finally, I’m 6’1 and 200lbs with broad shoulders, so not tiny. Never had a problem getting in and out of PA-18’s, but I’m not getting younger 
Why not look at a -18 four place? Sure it’s not tandem but take a front seat out. Sort of gets you there. Everything else makes sense for your mission. Go fly the experimental version Airframes has for sale. Sounds like they perform well with the added benefits of space and crossover parts. They also may end up lighter than a Backountry......hard to argue with the speed of a Patrol however. Hang some 31s or 35s on it and I bet it’s a tick slower;-)
 
Tough to beat that feeling of "wearing" the airplane you get from tandem with a stick. I don't get that in a side by side.

Any PIREP's on the Bearhawk vs. Maule? It looks like a Maule to me..
 
So far I have not been that impressed with the patrol. Not a bad plane, and it could be more of a pilot issue but not impressed enough to give up all a cub has to offer. One thing many don't mention is the trimmable stabilizer, on a cub a huge benefit in my mind. Also I don't think you can sleep in the plane (move some tubes it might work). Rigging has a lot to do with how good a cub flys, not sure how much you got to play with when it comes to a patrol. I have flown all over Alaska with my friends, groups of 10-14 planes most every type of plane you can think of. They all got us around. However, If you want to take two guys, fuel, camp, meat out of a 500 ft strip at 2,000-4000 ft you had better have some wind on the nose even with a cub. The other thing to consider is when you bend it, who has a jig to fix it right? The only planes I have seen that surpass a good cub is the Backcountry SQ types.
DENNY
 
Try out the Patrol I doubt very much you’ll be disappointed. It really is a solid airplane. We take Cubs and make them wider, stronger, faster, tweak the wing, better gear, more baggage, change the thrust line, more fuel etc etc. The patrol addresses many of those issues. Of course I’m biased.
 
So now there are two of us who own what we recommend!

Attributes I’m unwilling to compromise on-
TK-1 suspension
Keller flaps
Backcountry slats. I might be willing to try Carbon Concepts but I like what I have.
35” Bushwheels
Monster size cargo door (upper longeron moved to the top)


Things that are fun-
Autopilot
Electric trim
Toe brakes
Constant speed prop
 
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hahahah! The same guys that Fleurent, Guhr, Symon, Mathers, Crane, Keneston, and the rest of the non-pa-18 guys fly with of course. :)


Cub based airplanes. Same basic wing etc. I'm biased, i have only seen two patrols and never flown one. Ive seen a few cubs and cub type airplanes in my time :lol:. I'll go ring out a patrol if you gave me the keys. I wasnt impressed with the big engined patrol. A pponked 180 will spank it on all ends. Except maybe the door. Although i have put a lincon 275 mig welder in and out of a wagon
 
Well.....guess I better jump in. I built a Javron Cub. It is a Supercub...... and flys like a supercub. If you are going to build a Backcountry or Patrol or anything else BE SURE you fly one first, and see that you like the way it handles. Everyone says..... "it flys just like a cub"...there is a reason everything is compared to a cub. Huskies, Patrols, Maules, Backcountry.....they do NOT fly like a Cub. You might prefer the way something else flies. Thats cool....we are all different....do what works for you.....but please TRY IT FIRST. We lost one of the best members of this group because he sold his cub, tried something else (at great cost) and hated it so bad he sold it and quit flying. So......fly one first.....maybe several times......

One of the advantages of the Javron kit is the flexibility Jay DeRosier (owner/CEO of Javron) gives you when setting up your kit. You can go std or wide body, PA-12 style or even 4 place. Dual door, or seaplane style doors. Shooter window or slider. Heel brakes or toe brakes. Std flap handle or overhead flap handle. Std trim, overhead trim or electric trim. Can do larger baggage door and also larger entry door.
Just want to buy the fuselage now and do the wings later?....can do. He can, and will, do pretty much whatever you want. So .....you can customize it to suit your mission.

My cub has 180 Hp and at 1052 empty has close to a 1250 pound useful load. You can buy any cub part and it will bolt right on. So....that pod you were talking about....I have one.......Skies,......Floats......no brainer....tons of cubs on floats.....you are not trying to reinvent the wheel. The rigging is known and available.

Flies like a cub, resale value like a cub, looks like a cub,.........whats not to like?

Just another opinion.

Bill
 
Try out the Patrol I doubt very much you’ll be disappointed. It really is a solid airplane. We take Cubs and make them wider, stronger, faster, tweak the wing, better gear, more baggage, change the thrust line, more fuel etc etc. The patrol addresses many of those issues. Of course I’m biased.

Didn't you just restore a Super Cub for yourself to fly?

Glenn
 
I’m currently flying a stock engine 170B, and am looking fairly seriously at the javron vs patrol question. One thing I’ve noticed is that many patrols seem to be in the ~1200-1250 lbs range for empty weight. If I’m not mistaken I they they are set up to be 2000 lbs gross. Not bad on wheels, but would be a little tight on amphibs right?

Has anyone seen Keller/PSTOl flaps on the patrol wing? I like the idea of flatter approach attitude...
 
I don’t see my 1,900lbs empty P’Ponked 180 routinely coming off in under 500’ with a load...
Maybe a light early one w/wind in the nose.

Cub based airplanes. Same basic wing etc. I'm biased, i have only seen two patrols and never flown one. Ive seen a few cubs and cub type airplanes in my time :lol:. I'll go ring out a patrol if you gave me the keys. I wasnt impressed with the big engined patrol. A pponked 180 will spank it on all ends. Except maybe the door. Although i have put a lincon 275 mig welder in and out of a wagon
 
SB,
I’d like to see yours when I get back up home, if you’re showing
So now there are two of us who own what we recommend!

Attributes I’m unwilling to compromise on-
TK-1 suspension
Keller flaps
Backcountry slats. I might be willing to try Carbon Concepts but I like what I have.
35” Bushwheels
Monster size cargo door (upper longeron moved to the top)


Things that are fun-
Autopilot
Electric trim
Toe brakes
Constant speed prop
 
He must not have very good Cub drivers around. I can get my 180 in and out of places Cubs won’t go in certain conditions, but to make that a blanket statement is suspect. Now if you let the 180 run with the same load as the Cub? The lines draw closer but the Cub will still win.
 
Patrol with a Jack screw...not the trim tab...plus patrol wings are flush riveted..fly faster...put some VG’s on her...be happy. I’m converting my Pacer to a bushy preference. The A model Bearhawk I’m also building....it’s what a Maule should be...less the oversized IO520 I’m installing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
The one i helped restore does. Sportsman vg's and a tx skyways 520. He takes it into places cubs wont go

I had an early 180, light, 250hp Skyways engine, Horton and no VGs. I made a few landings with full load at 500', but ground had to be soft. serious pucker factor. I flew it out at gross from 670' of sand.... she just barely wanted to stay in the air in ground effect. Stock wing cub with VGs will laugh at a 180 in runway distance all day with equal drivers and comparable loads. The cub is also much better in bouncy terrain, and easier to patch.

One note- Bill went to a bunch of effort to reduce weight, so comparing a 1200 lb patrol to his cub is not fair. Most 180 cubs are in the 1200 pound range.

For the money you are going to be investing, take a trip and fly the Patrol, see if Stewart will give you a show, and then check out the Javron frame at Carbon Concepts as you observe all the goodies he has to lighten your plane and wallet. The speed of the patrol and the takeoffs I watched the designer make impressed me. Worth the look.
 
American sized pilots can reach the flap handle without effort, and I've already planned out the overhead flap mod, using cubcrafters design. (If the assembly was wider could almost use their handle as is)

I've got a cub, but my next airplane will very likely be a Patrol.

pb
pb,
You may want to rethink the flap handle. Remember what happened to your other Cub. How would your noggin have fared if there had been an overhead flap handle?
 
Cub based airplanes. Same basic wing etc. I'm biased, i have only seen two patrols and never flown one. Ive seen a few cubs and cub type airplanes in my time :lol:. I'll go ring out a patrol if you gave me the keys. I wasnt impressed with the big engined patrol. A pponked 180 will spank it on all ends. Except maybe the door. Although i have put a lincon 275 mig welder in and out of a wagon

To clarify that was a fat (like high 1600's) A model four place Tom, Patrol is a different animal altogether. The proto Patrol is 950 lbs, 2000 gross.
The points Bill made will always be true, no way any Cub like plane can catch up to the development and parts availability of the Cub with 80 years head start, but on the plus side a lot of the Cub negatives have been addressed in the design.
 
Thanks for comments, folks.
No mention of the CC’s EX3 here. Perhaps because of lack of customization?
 
Try out the Patrol I doubt very much you’ll be disappointed. It really is a solid airplane. We take Cubs and make them wider, stronger, faster, tweak the wing, better gear, more baggage, change the thrust line, more fuel etc etc. The patrol addresses many of those issues. Of course I’m biased.
What is the gear design on the Patrol?
 
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