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Thread: Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

  1. #1

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    Question Alaska fish & hunt - Patrol or Cub

    Folks, could use some guidance and insight. Iíve been reading so many posts on different airframes that my head is swimming.

    Our Ď73 C180 is a great plane and weíre keeping it, but at 1,900 lbs on bush wheels itís not an outstanding short strip performer even with the PPonk and 3-blade MT.

    Plus, I really miss flying a tandem with a light stick.

    Am constantly returning to the idea of building a PA-18 or similar because 1) I love working on machines and like the idea of flying and maintaining something that I built myself; 2) I want substantially more off-airport wheel and ski performance; and 3) I really enjoy flying tandem aircraft.

    Mission is mostly to get to where the fish and game and good camping are in AK. Needs to work with wheels, skis and perhaps floats. Iím comfortable w/TIG work, but would rather begin with a relatively complete kit for my first time build.

    The Bearhawk Patrol seems to tick a bunch of boxes (including short perf + good range), but so much groundwork and mods have already been done in the world of PA-18 variants that itís hard to turn away from those. Itís not a minor issue - for example, I donít think anyone yet makes a pod for the Patrol. Molding and laying up fiberglass is fine, but one more thing to do.

    I tend to fly heavy into rough areas with gear, game, hunting partner, etc. and want to handle 500í coming and going at gross without sweating too much. So, a rugged build with high power to weight.

    Finally, Iím 6í1 and 200lbs with broad shoulders, so not tiny. Never had a problem getting in and out of PA-18ís, but Iím not getting younger 😂

    I bet somebody is going to say sell the 180 and get a light, stripped down 185 w/550. Not a tandem, so loses some charm...
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    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Well, we are on a SuperCub site. IT has history. WE have history. And of course, it's a proven machine with mods on every side.

    That said, I'll batter up for a minute and say that the Patrol deserves a very close look. It likely leans more to a "traveler" than the cub does, with it's slightly higher stall speed and much higher cruise speed, but it will carry the load too. Quite a bit wider than a certified cub, American sized pilots can reach the flap handle without effort, and I've already planned out the overhead flap mod, using cubcrafters design. (If the assembly was wider could almost use their handle as is)

    I've got a cub, but my next airplane will very likely be a Patrol.

    pb

    edit : in the northeast alone, we now have two Patrols in construction, one model Five, and one Patrol on order. Hopefully will have another Patrol order soon.
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  3. #3
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Like Steve P has always said, there is a lot of knockoffs of the supercub. Must be a good reason.


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  4. #4

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    Backcountry Rev. Performance, space, useful load, huge cargo door.
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  5. #5
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Like Steve P has always said, there is a lot of knockoffs of the supercub. Must be a good reason.


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    Tom, I wonder who John and Peter are going to fly around with?
    They probably will get matching flight suits

    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 02-28-2021 at 07:18 PM.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  6. #6
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Interesting results chart from NZ the other day. Jon Battson (sp?) does know his airplane well, but that said he bested some supercubs in lighter classes. I believe he has a 4 place bearhawk, so in theory the lighter Patrol should be able to best that.
    End of the day the best pilot will outfly others no matter what airplane they're in.

    Measurements are in meters. (26 meters is 85 feet)
    http://www.marlboroughaeroclub.co.nz...lts%202021.pdf

  7. #7
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Tom, I wonder who John and Peter are going to fly around with?
    They probably with get matching flight suits

    Glenn
    hahahah! The same guys that Fleurent, Guhr, Symon, Mathers, Crane, Keneston, and the rest of the non-pa-18 guys fly with of course.
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  8. #8

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    1. I usually fly commando
    2. The whole point of a high performer is to get away from you scoundrels
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post

    Am constantly returning to the idea of building a PA-18 or similar because 1) I love working on machines and like the idea of flying and maintaining something that I built myself; 2) I want substantially more off-airport wheel and ski performance; and 3) I really enjoy flying tandem.

    I tend to fly heavy into rough areas with gear, game, hunting partner, etc. and want to handle 500’ coming and going at gross without sweating too much. So, a rugged build with high power to weight.

    Finally, I’m 6’1 and 200lbs with broad shoulders, so not tiny. Never had a problem getting in and out of PA-18’s, but I’m not getting younger 
    Why not look at a -18 four place? Sure it’s not tandem but take a front seat out. Sort of gets you there. Everything else makes sense for your mission. Go fly the experimental version Airframes has for sale. Sounds like they perform well with the added benefits of space and crossover parts. They also may end up lighter than a Backountry......hard to argue with the speed of a Patrol however. Hang some 31s or 35s on it and I bet it’s a tick slower

  10. #10
    sub3's Avatar
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    Tough to beat that feeling of "wearing" the airplane you get from tandem with a stick. I don't get that in a side by side.

    Any PIREP's on the Bearhawk vs. Maule? It looks like a Maule to me..

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    So far I have not been that impressed with the patrol. Not a bad plane, and it could be more of a pilot issue but not impressed enough to give up all a cub has to offer. One thing many don't mention is the trimmable stabilizer, on a cub a huge benefit in my mind. Also I don't think you can sleep in the plane (move some tubes it might work). Rigging has a lot to do with how good a cub flys, not sure how much you got to play with when it comes to a patrol. I have flown all over Alaska with my friends, groups of 10-14 planes most every type of plane you can think of. They all got us around. However, If you want to take two guys, fuel, camp, meat out of a 500 ft strip at 2,000-4000 ft you had better have some wind on the nose even with a cub. The other thing to consider is when you bend it, who has a jig to fix it right? The only planes I have seen that surpass a good cub is the Backcountry SQ types.
    DENNY
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  12. #12
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    Try out the Patrol I doubt very much you’ll be disappointed. It really is a solid airplane. We take Cubs and make them wider, stronger, faster, tweak the wing, better gear, more baggage, change the thrust line, more fuel etc etc. The patrol addresses many of those issues. Of course I’m biased.
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  13. #13

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    So now there are two of us who own what we recommend!

    Attributes I’m unwilling to compromise on-
    TK-1 suspension
    Keller flaps
    Backcountry slats. I might be willing to try Carbon Concepts but I like what I have.
    35” Bushwheels
    Monster size cargo door (upper longeron moved to the top)


    Things that are fun-
    Autopilot
    Electric trim
    Toe brakes
    Constant speed prop
    Last edited by stewartb; 02-28-2021 at 09:09 PM.
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  14. #14
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    hahahah! The same guys that Fleurent, Guhr, Symon, Mathers, Crane, Keneston, and the rest of the non-pa-18 guys fly with of course.

    Cub based airplanes. Same basic wing etc. I'm biased, i have only seen two patrols and never flown one. Ive seen a few cubs and cub type airplanes in my time . I'll go ring out a patrol if you gave me the keys. I wasnt impressed with the big engined patrol. A pponked 180 will spank it on all ends. Except maybe the door. Although i have put a lincon 275 mig welder in and out of a wagon
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  15. #15
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    Well.....guess I better jump in. I built a Javron Cub. It is a Supercub...... and flys like a supercub. If you are going to build a Backcountry or Patrol or anything else BE SURE you fly one first, and see that you like the way it handles. Everyone says..... "it flys just like a cub"...there is a reason everything is compared to a cub. Huskies, Patrols, Maules, Backcountry.....they do NOT fly like a Cub. You might prefer the way something else flies. Thats cool....we are all different....do what works for you.....but please TRY IT FIRST. We lost one of the best members of this group because he sold his cub, tried something else (at great cost) and hated it so bad he sold it and quit flying. So......fly one first.....maybe several times......

    One of the advantages of the Javron kit is the flexibility Jay DeRosier (owner/CEO of Javron) gives you when setting up your kit. You can go std or wide body, PA-12 style or even 4 place. Dual door, or seaplane style doors. Shooter window or slider. Heel brakes or toe brakes. Std flap handle or overhead flap handle. Std trim, overhead trim or electric trim. Can do larger baggage door and also larger entry door.
    Just want to buy the fuselage now and do the wings later?....can do. He can, and will, do pretty much whatever you want. So .....you can customize it to suit your mission.

    My cub has 180 Hp and at 1052 empty has close to a 1250 pound useful load. You can buy any cub part and it will bolt right on. So....that pod you were talking about....I have one.......Skies,......Floats......no brainer....tons of cubs on floats.....you are not trying to reinvent the wheel. The rigging is known and available.

    Flies like a cub, resale value like a cub, looks like a cub,.........whats not to like?

    Just another opinion.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  16. #16
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearhawk Builder View Post
    Try out the Patrol I doubt very much you’ll be disappointed. It really is a solid airplane. We take Cubs and make them wider, stronger, faster, tweak the wing, better gear, more baggage, change the thrust line, more fuel etc etc. The patrol addresses many of those issues. Of course I’m biased.
    Didn't you just restore a Super Cub for yourself to fly?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  17. #17
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    I’m currently flying a stock engine 170B, and am looking fairly seriously at the javron vs patrol question. One thing I’ve noticed is that many patrols seem to be in the ~1200-1250 lbs range for empty weight. If I’m not mistaken I they they are set up to be 2000 lbs gross. Not bad on wheels, but would be a little tight on amphibs right?

    Has anyone seen Keller/PSTOl flaps on the patrol wing? I like the idea of flatter approach attitude...

  18. #18
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    Street cred ��
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  19. #19

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    I don’t see my 1,900lbs empty P’Ponked 180 routinely coming off in under 500’ with a load...
    Maybe a light early one w/wind in the nose.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Cub based airplanes. Same basic wing etc. I'm biased, i have only seen two patrols and never flown one. Ive seen a few cubs and cub type airplanes in my time . I'll go ring out a patrol if you gave me the keys. I wasnt impressed with the big engined patrol. A pponked 180 will spank it on all ends. Except maybe the door. Although i have put a lincon 275 mig welder in and out of a wagon

  20. #20

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    SB,
    I’d like to see yours when I get back up home, if you’re showing
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    So now there are two of us who own what we recommend!

    Attributes I’m unwilling to compromise on-
    TK-1 suspension
    Keller flaps
    Backcountry slats. I might be willing to try Carbon Concepts but I like what I have.
    35” Bushwheels
    Monster size cargo door (upper longeron moved to the top)


    Things that are fun-
    Autopilot
    Electric trim
    Toe brakes
    Constant speed prop

  21. #21

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    Any time. Iím sure with a phone call we can go see a Mackey SQ-12 under construction, too.
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  22. #22
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    I don’t see my 1,900lbs empty P’Ponked 180 routinely coming off in under 500’ with a load...
    Maybe a light early one w/wind in the nose.
    The one i helped restore does. Sportsman vg's and a tx skyways 520. He takes it into places cubs wont go

  23. #23

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    He must not have very good Cub drivers around. I can get my 180 in and out of places Cubs won’t go in certain conditions, but to make that a blanket statement is suspect. Now if you let the 180 run with the same load as the Cub? The lines draw closer but the Cub will still win.
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  24. #24

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    Patrol with a Jack screw...not the trim tab...plus patrol wings are flush riveted..fly faster...put some VGís on her...be happy. Iím converting my Pacer to a bushy preference. The A model Bearhawk Iím also building....itís what a Maule should be...less the oversized IO520 Iím installing.


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  25. #25
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    The one i helped restore does. Sportsman vg's and a tx skyways 520. He takes it into places cubs wont go
    I had an early 180, light, 250hp Skyways engine, Horton and no VGs. I made a few landings with full load at 500', but ground had to be soft. serious pucker factor. I flew it out at gross from 670' of sand.... she just barely wanted to stay in the air in ground effect. Stock wing cub with VGs will laugh at a 180 in runway distance all day with equal drivers and comparable loads. The cub is also much better in bouncy terrain, and easier to patch.

    One note- Bill went to a bunch of effort to reduce weight, so comparing a 1200 lb patrol to his cub is not fair. Most 180 cubs are in the 1200 pound range.

    For the money you are going to be investing, take a trip and fly the Patrol, see if Stewart will give you a show, and then check out the Javron frame at Carbon Concepts as you observe all the goodies he has to lighten your plane and wallet. The speed of the patrol and the takeoffs I watched the designer make impressed me. Worth the look.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  26. #26
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    American sized pilots can reach the flap handle without effort, and I've already planned out the overhead flap mod, using cubcrafters design. (If the assembly was wider could almost use their handle as is)

    I've got a cub, but my next airplane will very likely be a Patrol.

    pb
    pb,
    You may want to rethink the flap handle. Remember what happened to your other Cub. How would your noggin have fared if there had been an overhead flap handle?
    N1PA
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  27. #27
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Cub based airplanes. Same basic wing etc. I'm biased, i have only seen two patrols and never flown one. Ive seen a few cubs and cub type airplanes in my time . I'll go ring out a patrol if you gave me the keys. I wasnt impressed with the big engined patrol. A pponked 180 will spank it on all ends. Except maybe the door. Although i have put a lincon 275 mig welder in and out of a wagon
    To clarify that was a fat (like high 1600's) A model four place Tom, Patrol is a different animal altogether. The proto Patrol is 950 lbs, 2000 gross.
    The points Bill made will always be true, no way any Cub like plane can catch up to the development and parts availability of the Cub with 80 years head start, but on the plus side a lot of the Cub negatives have been addressed in the design.
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  28. #28

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    Thanks for comments, folks.
    No mention of the CC’s EX3 here. Perhaps because of lack of customization?

  29. #29
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    Thanks for comments, folks.
    No mention of the CC’s EX3 here. Perhaps because of lack of customization?
    What would you want to customize on an EX3?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  30. #30
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearhawk Builder View Post
    Try out the Patrol I doubt very much you’ll be disappointed. It really is a solid airplane. We take Cubs and make them wider, stronger, faster, tweak the wing, better gear, more baggage, change the thrust line, more fuel etc etc. The patrol addresses many of those issues. Of course I’m biased.
    What is the gear design on the Patrol?
    Steve Pierce

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  31. #31
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Steve, Look at this photo. Notice the tubing above the two main gear fittings. It looks very substantial to me.



    https://bearhawkaircraft.com/patrol-seaplane/
    N1PA

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    What would you want to customize on an EX3?
    I guess that’s where I was going with the question. After reviewing the changes in the CC evolution, appears to me that the EX3 blends most of what folks typically want (but doesn’t allow for the “roll your own” aspects like the Javron and others).

    Is there REALLY an issue with durability compared to, for example, a Javron or Backcountry?

    That new cabin heat system in the EX3 is mighty nice. My dog would be happier in winter cabin runs. Wonder if that could be adapted into other craft...

  33. #33
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Go fly the EX/FX3, it flies very nice. How long do you intend to own it? I maintain one with 800 plus hours, rode hard and put up wet. Been a few little issues, nothing major. There are pros and cons for sure but the do perform and fly nice.
    Steve Pierce

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  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Go fly the EX/FX3, it flies very nice. How long do you intend to own it? I maintain one with 800 plus hours, rode hard and put up wet. Been a few little issues, nothing major. There are pros and cons for sure but the do perform and fly nice.
    I’d say for at least 10 years, which in hours for the Cub would be around 1,500.

  35. #35

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    The thing that tipped the scales for myself when I had the same questions as Johnny. Never mind that it lands so slow.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The thing that tipped the scales for myself when I had the same questions as Johnny. Never mind that it lands so slow.
    Oh my goodness! That is crazy good access for a Cub. No more hunking back twisting moose quarters over the rear seat!

    How’s CG loading range? That much access must be enticing for overdoing it at times.
    Ever think of putting on a pod?
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  37. #37

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    Installing slats moves the aft CG limit 1”. This airplane likes weight aft. I keep about 50# of stuff shoved all the way back to make it more comfortable to fly. Taking a dog makes it even better. With aft ballast in 3 point the tail is heavy but the prop lifts it as soon as I apply full power. I haven’t needed to fly it heavy yet. I have the Wagon for that.

    I have no need for a pod.

  38. #38

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    I just ran a sample W&B. If I’m sitting up front, I have 75# of gear in the second seat, 30 gallons of gas, and 500# in cargo? I’m a couple of inches forward of the aft limit. I can play with the numbers and move the load back some but I can’t imagine that being necessary.
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  39. #39

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    EDIT: Just found your comments here
    https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...stions-on-kits


    Stewart-
    I’m a staunch believer in powered approach, relatively flat angle of attack (wings slightly aft of horizon), and tail low wheel landings. It keeps me out of trouble with burbles, wind reversals, swirlies and all the other joys of landing near rivers and canyons.
    Thinking about those wing slats: At what point do your slats activate? If I’m descending with power for rate of descent, at my preferred AOA, then flaring it w/burst of throttle just moments before touchdown, are those slats going to be of much use? Or, are they much more active at high AOA’s? I’m not someone to hang on the prop for landings in remote areas. Too chicken (still alive!).

    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    So now there are two of us who own what we recommend!

    Attributes I’m unwilling to compromise on-
    TK-1 suspension
    Keller flaps
    Backcountry slats. I might be willing to try Carbon Concepts but I like what I have.
    35” Bushwheels
    Monster size cargo door (upper longeron moved to the top)


    Things that are fun-
    Autopilot
    Electric trim
    Toe brakes
    Constant speed prop
    Last edited by JohnnyR; 03-01-2021 at 02:38 PM.

  40. #40

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    Backcountry slats are open to some degree pretty much all the time. The amount of open depends on AOA/airspeed or some other magic I don't understand. I was never impressed with the super-high AOAs in the early slat demo videos. When Keller flaps were introduced and put onto slatted wings the AOA thing changed. Slatted airplane AOAs leveled out and they still flew just as slow. I fly my Cub in a very comfortable and familiar AOA. To take advantage of the slat's AOA capability I rely on relative wind and fly a steeper approach. To hit my spot I modulate throttle and honestly I need to get better at that. I can make excuses for the why but the bottom line is a little too much added power can send the plane climbing really quickly, and it doesn't take much. Modulating power on the final leg needs to be very subtle. When I miss on the slow side and the bottom feels like it's dropping out the TK-1s soak up the hit. I won't say I've never hit tailwheel first but it isn't my SOP.
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    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-12-2004, 03:38 AM

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