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J3 flying from front seat

arborite

arborite

SPONSOR
Ann Arbor, MI
Hello Cub folks,

I’m starting the search for a fun tailwheel plane and have been trying a few out. Flew a nice J3 but am not enthralled with flying from the back seat. Thought i would consult the experts on the possibility/advisability of flying a stock J3 from the front.

1. is it reasonable to add rear seat/baggage ballast and fly solo from the front? I don’t have any w&b data, so i couldn’t do the math. i’m pretty light (150 lb) and was hoping by adding ballast to the rear seat area to be able to fly from the front.

2. the plane i flew was placarded “solo from rear seat” so even if i could get within CG limits, is it legal to fly it from the front? it seems to be legal to fly in front with a passenger in the back. does the passenger have to be flesh and blood or can they be made of steel shot bags or camping gear?


I’m new to this forum but have been flying for a long time. Last year I retired and wanted to focus on flying. got my tailwheel endorsement and am absolutely hooked on flying these airplanes. i’m currently shopping for PA 11 variants but J3’s seem more plentiful and affordable.

thank you for your help and advice
 
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We have several members here who have regularly flown their J3 cubs from the front seat. I personally find the back seat a lot more comfortable, and there are lots of ways to put baggage in the empty front seat!

sj
 
SJ pretty much nailed it. I far prefer flying mine from the rear seat but if you're so inclined you can solo from the front seat just fine. The plane won't balance or fly as well that way but you can do it. Plus the front seat in a J3 is a miserable thing, about 3" off the floor and narrow. Oh, and the visibility isn't near as good from the front. I tend to stick a 3-4" thick pad under the seat whether I fly from the front or rear.
 
Take the placard out. Do a weight & balance, and note that if empty cg falls within a pretty wide range you cannot load it out of allowable limits. A metal prop might make front seat solo less desirable, but still safe.

Mine is 1946, and my first solo (1962) was in the front.

In any taildragger, a full and sudden brake application at low speed will cause a nose-over. Try not to do that.
 
View is better in the back seat if you carry your slip almost all the way to the landing

Glenn in
 
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Arborite , where are you located? Someone might know of something for sale fairly close if we know your location.
 
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thanks everyone. very helpful. I live in Ann Arbor, MI and it seems there are a lot of cubs out west on the other side of those snowy mountains. i’m game for flying one home weather permitting, which seems to be sometime in May. maybe.
 
Get a giant Wiley Coyote doll and add some weight to him , Place in back seat and strap him in .
I saw that one on the back of a Harley one time , Dam near wrecked my truck I was laughing so hard, as for a second I thought it was his/her girl friend. :lol::roll:
 
I hate the fuel tank support tubes by your feet in the front seat. Once you get used to all that space in front of you...flying from the back is quite comfy. My cousin has (I think he still does) a nice J3 in Ishpeming here in the UP for sale...wings rebuilt a couple years ago, fus repainted and a fresh c85 stroker. I can check with him if that’s what your looking for.
 
Yeah it's really no comparison once you get used to flying from the back seat.

When you fly from the back seat so many of the features of the airframe make sense. The door, back seat, brakes under the front seat...the cub was a back seat plane from the get-go.
 
And from an instructors perspective, the student has the best view for maintaining pitch attitude. Sitting in the back, you have the nose way out in front and any small pitch change is immediately evident to all but the very new student. It also forces the student to fly by reference to the outside, kind of hard to see the instruments with the instructor in front.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Dan Gervae said:
I hate the fuel tank support tubes by your feet in the front seat. Once you get used to all that space in front of you...flying from the back is quite comfy. My cousin has (I think he still does) a nice J3 in Ishpeming here in the UP for sale...wings rebuilt a couple years ago, fus repainted and a fresh c85 stroker. I can check with him if that’s what your looking for.
Click to expand...

Yes please. I sent you a private message with my info.
thank you
 
Is the front seat of the PA 11 the same as the J3 comfort wise? i suspect getting rid of the fuel tank up front should make it better, but is the seating position the same?

Based on the responses above, i’m going to fly the J3 again soon in the back and see if i can figure out the sight picture. my first flight instructor was a rather wide fellow. maybe i’ll ask for a more svelte instructor this time.
 
bob turner said:
Take the placard out. Do a weight & balance, and note that if empty cg falls within a pretty wide range you cannot load it out of allowable limits. A metal prop might make front seat solo less desirable, but still safe.

Mine is 1946, and my first solo (1962) was in the front.

In any taildragger, a full and sudden brake application at low speed will cause a nose-over. Try not to do that.
Click to expand...
Bob, be careful with a blank statement of "Take the placard out".

While it is allowed, there are certain procedures to be followed.
This is from the Type Certificate A-691:
"NOTE 2: Placard front cockpits of Models J3C-50, J3C-65, J3C-50S with McKinley floats and J3C-65S withMcKinley floats: "Solo flying from rear seat only." Placard may be removed if individual aircraft actualweight and balance shows that the approved C. G. limits will not be exceeded under any loading condition.Manufacturer recommends that all J-3 airplanes be flown solo from the rear seat."

Personally, I too prefer flying the J-3 from the back seat. There is a lot more room in the back and the visibility is just as good.
 
I thought I was ok with the back seat because that's where I started. Now I'm reminded of why I like the backseat of a glider, those nice flat, level canopy sills stretching out forward giving pitch reference. It's why so many hi time pilots transitioning to ultralights have such an attitude problem.:roll:
 
You can put a PA-18 seat in a J-3 which is even better than the PA/11 seat or you might consider looking for a PA – 18/95. Unless you want LSA. We put PA 18 seats in a couple of J-3s and it works out well; as for the Front spars I wear a helmet anyways. Some people contend that the J-3 front wing spar attach configuration is stronger than the PA 18. The PA 18 seat install requires a fair amount of work so check it out first. Have fun.
 
The PA-18 front seat mod requires welding in all new seat attach brackets as the J-3 front seat has simple feet that just bolt to the floor and the -18 had tabs that stick up out of the floor to attach the seat to. Personally I find that just putting a second seat bottom cushion in the front seat gets you up in a nice place to see over the nose. Ditto for the rear seat. Still not sure why in the 40's when people were shorter on average Piper insisted on making the seats so low in the cub. Lots of headroom for tall people I guess.
 
Front seat overthenose vis is great for seeing THAT ROCK. But my J3 is a sweeter flyer solo from the rear seat.

Also. the front seat back is too upright, and as said by others, set low in the cabin. A very strange ergonomic situation for todays average Merican
 
80th year, six feet, 195 lbs, and still fit for an hour at a time with students in back. Cannot even get in with excess cushions; they need to be stock thickness.

And yes - helmet mandatory if you do the cushion or 18 seat.
 
Maybe I'm just a wee lad but I've never had any occasion to get my head tangled up in the spars even with a cushion in the front seat. In the rear seat with a thicker pad I still have lots of room for GPS and radio hanging from the X brace above my head. Guess being 5'8" has it's advantages.
 
There is an STC, I think from Dodge that converts a J-3 to Pa-11 configuration and the CG is such that it can be soloed from the front seat. It removes the nose tank, adds one or more wing tanks and removes the bars that are in the way of your feet. I think there are some tube additions under the top of the instrument panel. In my estimation it makes it a wonderful airplane.
 
1934A said:
Even better, put a super cub seat in a PA-11. The front spar carry-through becomes a non-issue for your head!
Click to expand...

Thats what I had in my 11 but I flew it with the seat all the way rearward and had to make the seat back angle more rearward. I spent half my time in the rear seat

Glenn
 
A J3 is legal from either seat as long as your in CG range.
Other rear seat advantage is shorter, slower takeoff and landings

Glenn
 
I once did the initial test flight on a biplane with the CG dead center of the envelope. Miserable pig. I put it on the aft limit by moving the battery to the tail, all was sweetness and light. It could land itself. (like a Champ with someone in the backseat) We've been programmed to fear the aft limit, but if you're in limits, you're in. In sailplanes you'll go faster and further. In bushplanes, see above.
 
Skywalker said:
I once did the initial test flight on a biplane with the CG dead center of the envelope. Miserable pig. I put it on the aft limit by moving the battery to the tail, all was sweetness and light. It could land itself. (like a Champ with someone in the backseat) We've been programmed to fear the aft limit, but if you're in limits, you're in. In sailplanes you'll go faster and further. In bushplanes, see above.
Click to expand...
As much as I loved and respected my Dad and his flying abilities, he was certain the devil lived in the back half of the CG envelope. I personally prefer how most A/C fly in the more aft region.
 
Skywalker said:
We've been programmed to fear the aft limit, but if you're in limits, you're in.
Click to expand...
That programming came from the fear of a spin flattening due to the centrifugal forces moving the tail towards the outside of the spinning axis. This was more common during the early days of aviation when they were still trying to understand the aerodynamics of aviating. If your plane spins nose low while loaded at the aft cg limit......no worries. Usually... All single engine airplanes are spin tested prior to certification. This is one of the tests used in determining the certified aft CG limit.

IF a plane which normally spins nose low decides to raise it's nose during the spin STOP THE SPIN IMMEDIATELY. !

IF you allow the nose to come up level while in a spin, you may not be able to recover. The spin will become FLAT. The airspeed can drop to zero and the controls will become useless, because there is no air flowing over them. Normally this is not an issue. But it can happen. Know your airplane.

Been there, done that. And that plane which normally spins with the nose straight down, was loaded in the middle of the CG envelope.
 
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