I haven't been doing much shooting lately, but the talk of takedown lever actions got me thinking about it again. Dave Clay would take your Marlin of choice and do a really slick takedown conversion on it. I had one done years ago. Not cheap, not fast, but really nice work. Just felt like sharing.
One of his show guns:
One of my 1895's he converted:
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Originally Posted by scout88305
CALIBER.22WMR
WEIGHT UNLOADED3.8lbs
1.7kg
MAGAZINE CAPACITY30
OVERALL LENGTH29.9”
759mm
LENGTH COLLAPSED22.5”
571mm
BARREL LENGTH16”
408mm
TWIST RATE1:14″
1:356mm
TRIGGER PULL5lbs
Can't beat a M1 carbine. It is 5 pounds empty, rapid fire, easily aimed, impact energy of a .357 Magnum, easy to clean, 30 round magazines available and cheap (60 cents) standard ammo easily available as well. It also has the ability to take a large deer as well as smaller game. I'm not disputing the value of a lightweight .22 for food collection though.
Impact energy against a bear is important, but I believe that the most important features of a bear protection gun are weight and range. Low weight means that you will be more likely to have it on you when the SHTF. A handgun's accuracy is approximately worthless beyond 15 yards. A carbine extends the reach to where a charging bear can be stopped before it's 1-2 seconds away at 45mph.
Another thought. The CMMG Banshee 10mm is 4 1/2 pounds, accurate rapid fire and it takes Glock 10mm magazines, which a lot of people are carrying as a sidearm these days anyway. The 10mm cartridge through a 16 inch barrel delivers impressive energies.
Black bears or moose are the biggest critters we have here. I have a .22 handgun and ammo in my baggage pack. I carry my Glock in .357 sig in an inside the waistband holster that is very comfortable (always if I am flying. No good to me if I can't get to it). I recently bought the Ruger 10/22 takedown in stainless with comp stock. Packs in a nice little nylon case. Might put that in the baggage instead of the little handgun. I have to disagree with the 15 yd accuracy statement. Out to 50yds 12" circle is not hard to hit consistently. I would agree that 15 yds is probably good for inexperienced shooters, but those who are competent shooters can hit well beyond that.
I pulled Tough Trip Through Paradise of off the shelf this evening and skimmed through it and looked at chapter titles and couldn’t find a story like this. But he had several native wives over the years and there are many, many stories in the book, so it could be in there.
He spent his last years on his ranch not far from here, in Mineral county. I90 goes through there now as you come off Lookout Pass. It was then that he wrote the manuscript.
It is a great book. I’ll probably read it again now.
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
Just guessing on the actual percentage, but probably 98% of us here would envy the abilities of anybody who can talk a handgun into making a 12 inch group at 150 feet on a charging bear!
Been around a lot of bears, but the only time I felt the need to deploy a firearm happened so fast, I doubt anything short of a contact shot while the bear was on me would have been possible. Walking through thick alders with a 12 gauge slung over my shoulder on the only passable “path” when I heard a loud crashing. Saw the bear at a very short distance running toward us, and as I fumbled for the gun luckily I stepped to the side and the bear ran right by us and kept going.
Why would anyone shoot at a bear at 150'? That's not a close encounter and it sure as hell isn't self defense. When a bear closes to 15-20' is when you take a shot. And if you wait for 15-20' the vast majority of the time you'll never need to shoot. Even with bears that are huffing. Bluff charges are common. No reason to call their bluff and escalate the situation.
Was taking about the accuracy of handguns. Not about shooting at a charging bear at all. It's no wonder some us post less all the time. Some of you guys just like to argue a point in any manner possible.
WOW!! That is a BEAUTIFUL photo of a BEAUTIFUL paint job!!! Which system is that? The depth of colour and shine are amazing!!Something kind of similar with a Ruger American in .308 Win. A couple of years ago, when I put this together, this started as a $300 rifle. The scope is a Leupold 1x4.
Attachment 53868
Attachment 53867
You can kind of make out the black case over the top of the yellow axe handle in the belly pod.
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Every day's a school day
Two pins and an AR is a pretty nice take down as well....
Reminds me of the brownie killed in SE AK a few years back where the first couple guys in the group had their shotguns slung over their shoulder. 4 guys walking, bear came through the first two and the 11 year old that was number 3 in line with his shotgun he was carrying and not slung killed the bear. The boy's dad hadn't got around to putting a sling on it yet.
On the one hand, lucky that the sling hadn’t been fitted, but if the bear was planning on carrying on running, like in the story above, seems very sad for the bear
#GuessWe’llNeverKnow
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This just a Polytone white with Aerothane trim colors. And the Aerothane white is flattened to match the Polytone. If Polytone is chilled before it is sprayed it has a bit more shine to it.
Thanks for the info! Was the finish part of a new covering, or applied to existing fabric? The whole job looks brand new!!
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NICE .308 !!That picture was from last month. I sprayed it in 2010 - not a rejuvination. I'm hangared which helps.
And so we don't get too far off track, here's another picture of the .308.
You’ve just made my day!!! I’ve done lots of mechanical work on my 12 and it’s now just the paint that lets it down, it’s on Ceconite which is still in almost 100% great condition despite 20+ years on and following your lead in spraying over the original fabric is now looking like the way to go!!!THANK YOU!!!!!
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Last edited by Philly5G; 02-06-2021 at 06:29 PM.
Every day's a school day
For those of you looking at transiting canada our firearms law s were written by a bunch of southern ontarians unsure of there buttocks or a hole in the ground. #1 as of this Year, ARs are considered prohibited. Expect if you show up to have it confiscated, and turned around with or without criminal charges.
#2 OAL must be 26" or over, if a semiautomatic you must be over 18.6" bbl. .22s with a factory bbl shorter are ok as long as oal>26"
3. Magazines, Semiautomatic pistol magazines are limited to 10 rds. If pistol mag will fit in a semiautomatic rifle and it is marked as such it maybe 10 rds, however if for a rifle or unmarked limited to 5rds. .22 RF are normally exempt, but rugers are now limited to 10 rds, as the charger pistol mags interchange, same with the keltec, so have them blocked to 10(maybe load 20 in the bottom underneath the springplate, and then load 10 from the top) to meet the letter of the law
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M1 Carbine converted to 45 Winchester Magnum. With a 230 grain hardball bullet it has impressive penetration. And it's a Winchester.
Perhaps some day you Remlin lever gun guys might graduate to a real lever gun in 500 S&W instead. How about a Big Horn Armory Model 89 with 7+1 of 50 cal. Medicine. Out of a rifle the 500 S&W is quite a performer. Big Horn Armory initially tried to marry the Marlin 1895 action to the 500 S&W and found the action couldn't take the pressure so they had to build one from scratch.
And if you run out of cartridges, that thing looks like it'd make a pretty effective club!
Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
Sounds like a good story but they actually just copied the Winchester 1886. The side plate behind the loading gate is a dead giveaway as is the vertical locking bars at the rear of the action.
They are good guns though no doubt about it.
Not a story. At the very first design trials they tried modifying an 1895 action in order to keep a flat top receiver. It couldn't handle the 65,000 cup of the 500 S&W. So yes they modeled their new design after the Winchester design. Their gun is ultimately a blend of the Winchester model 92 and 86... hence the model 89 and made from 17-4 stainless.
Soft shooting tame recoil for sure
I speak from a bit of experience as I had a .378 Weatherby Mag for a long time, most of my friend who did shoot it only did it one.
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I took this picture last week. This is a Ruger American compact .22 WMR. It isn’t Bear protection but I wouldn’t hesitate to head-shoot a deer or an elk with it at bow range. And a box of 50 rounds is light and compact as is the rifle.
Had the bear intended to escape, it would have gone a direction other than towards the people. Bears that come into people have intent, (unless in a fully crowded situation which it is surrounded). So a bear charging through a group is intending to put all of the people down before it begins chewing...
Also, bears will almost always give you the chance to back out. One that sees and charges has intent. They will often hold up at 10' or so, but not always. I like to put a shot in front of them and spray with gravel to give them more encouragement to turn. I have also been squeezing the trigger as they crossed the 30' line.
I never feel sorry for a bear that has attacked people. But my survival us generally not depended on killing a bear, but keeping warm and eating.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Kills at one end, hurts at the other.
Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
Accurate comment at least in the beginning. It was Bitch to sight in on the bench, but standing offhand it was not a problem. BUT if you were inclined to flinch it would help you out. It was crazy accurate with 300 gr. bullets at 3000 fps which is a lot of energy, it would hold 1/2 minute of angle 5 shot groups. It was purchased for a Cape Buffalo hunt, I ended up hunting the buff with a bow though. I shot two Impala with it when we were bait hunting getting ready for a Leopard hunt. That .378 made mincemeat of Impala. Sadly never got the bow shot at the Leopard.
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Not really, I disagree. You have to keep in mind that when we're in bear country, we often are traveling on a BEAR trail. I've had bears run past me in Kodiak because I was on a trail. Try to claw your way through alders, Pushki, and devil's club there sometime. And, if the bear was headed that direction initially, often they'll just continue on. Doesn't NECESSARILY imply intent to do harm.
But, they could. The cases I've been involved in, the bear just hauled ass past us and kept going. Couldn't see them or even hear them till it was way too late to get a gun in position. Biggest problem was getting back to a cabin for fresh undies.....
Overhanging alders on bear trails make "hiking" there an interesting ritual, and a rifle makes it more challenging.
MTV
Glad it worked out for you Mike, but I have a number of friends in the last few years that the scars to prove the bear intended harm; one went off a 50' cliff in front of his wife with the bear attached to him by the teeth, one was being shaken like a rag when the father's rounds finally scared the bear off. Neither situation was a sow/cub situation, both were bears being aggressive. There are more, but I don't want to belabor the point.
378 Weatherby- my rifle coach had one. First shot he said was the only time he ever got 'scoped' from a rifle. Second shot he said hurt, third shot he caught the scope as it was flying over his shoulder after the shot. Sheared the mounting screws. He had the gunsmith over size the next set of screws.
My good friend shoots a 300 Weatherby. I shot it once, that was enough. A powerhouse for sure, to the game and your shoulder. I can put a bullet where I need with my 06. Accuracy for me is better than volume of lead. Good bullets also.
Isn't it great we have so many choices!! Heck, I even have a case of 556 waiting for me at the store to pick up tomorrow... 1,000 rounds. Who wants to go shooting?
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
I had a Whelend .35 Imp 40 years ago. I bought it used and it came with 5 boxes of ammo. I was puzzled because there were only 3 spent cartridges. 3 of us shot it one day and when I sold it a few years later with 5 boxes of ammo it only had 6 spent rounds. I would bet that there are at least 4 full boxes left today
Glenn
"Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
Well hell, you may as well shoot a 270!
I love my 300 Wby. Plenty of punch with acceptable recoil.... until you make the gun too light. And then it only hurts on the range. You never feel it in real conditions. I love love love my Wby Ultra Lightweight in 270 Remington. Rifles are like planes. Guys spend crazy money to reduce weight. A stock Weatherby ULW is a great gun for a good price.
My 2021 survival rifle is an AR-10! I’m more worried about people than animals!
Used to be a cleaver gunsmith in Anchorage named Will Fowler ( machinist for Alaska Railroad) . Lots of guides used him to cut down rifles to Carbine lengths. He converted many dozens of pre 64 model 70 Winchester'sThat were in 30/06 into the hard hitting 35 Whelen. He simply bored out the original barrels to 35 caliber and used his ancient P&W rifling machine to hand cut the groves! Over the years I was around numerous guides that used them as backup guns on bear and it works fantastic!With stout handloads it's within 100fps of my .338 WM with 250gr bullets. Wicked caliber.....
I used to live up the street from Norman Brown, who mede the Brown and Whelen. Nice guy. My neighbor, a disciple of Brownie’s, came up with a 375-06. That was the most unimpressive gun I’ve ever seen.
I had a Winchester AE lever gun in .444 Marlin with a factory ported 18" barrel. The loudest rifle I've heard. One practice shot and the dog disappeared until dark. It would impressively blow flames out the barrel. Every time I picked it up to walk in the woods the dog took off so I traded it. Might scare bears too.
Gary
Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 03-21-2021 at 10:46 PM.
Providing the bears are beside or behind you, right? Good luck with that.
The other issue with the .444 was proper factory bullets weren't initially available. They'd fragment quickly as they used common handgun bullets initially. Later speciality loaders like Cor-Bon, Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Underwood either reinforced the bullet or made it solid. Factory loads also improved. I was quite the compact carbine to carry.
Gary
@aktango58 and @stewartb
The .300 Weatherby Mag was my all-round rifle, I put a KDF recoil reducer on it and it felt like a soft .270 but had all the benefits of a 180gr. going 3000fps. My .300 was a Remington chambered in .300 WBY MAG in a synthetic stock. The last hunt it went on was in 1994 on a Dall Sheep hunt in the Alaska range. I was glad to have the light synthetic stock attached to my 80# backpack for 10 day hunt on that nightmarish climb in AND out.
Win-Win
Edited to add:
Day off work here (Nairobi) and I am tying flies looking out over HKNW watching Caravans come and go as well as student pilots coming in too fast and ballooning and bouncingBesides loving being around airports, it is not a glamorous view.
Last edited by Utah-Jay; 03-22-2021 at 12:50 AM.
"Reboring" used to be a pretty common practice, back in the day--
maybe because labor was cheaper then?
About 25 years ago, I had a Model 70 carbine rebored from 223 to 250-300 Ackley -- shot great.
The magazine mod wasn't done too well though, that & the minimum-taper case made for fussy feeding.
I've always thought that a "338 Whelen" (30-06 necked up to 33would be a good caliber-
lots of good .338" bullets available.
I haven't followed new cartridge development in quite a while, so maybe one of the factories is making those now.
Speaking of "new cartridges", it's very interesting to read PO Ackley's "Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders" circa 1962.
Alot of the "new" factory cartridges marketed since the 1960's were first developed years & years ago as wildcats.
Last edited by hotrod180; 03-22-2021 at 09:53 AM.
Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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