Results 1 to 39 of 39

Thread: Insurance changes

  1. #1
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    11,773
    Post Thanks / Like

    Insurance changes


  2. #2
    Cub Builder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    North Central AR
    Posts
    728
    Post Thanks / Like
    Seems like an inadvertent advertisement for AVEMCO. The others just had excuses and conjecture. Granted they are brokers, not underwriters like AVEMCO. FWIW, in my lower 60s, AIG priced themselves out of my business, so both of my planes are now liability only with AVEMCO.
    Thanks Bowie thanked for this post
    Likes mike mcs repair, bob turner liked this post

  3. #3
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2021
    Location
    Arizona, USA
    Posts
    660
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    Seems like an inadvertent advertisement for AVEMCO.
    I saw the linked video before my FX-3 insurance was due for renewal. I contacted AVEMCO and they declined to quote for hull risk. They refused to say why and just said "underwriting policy". I renewed with STARR which was the only company I could get to quote before I took delivery. (I'm over 70 with about 6,000 hours and about 700 tail wheel airplane. No airplane insurance losses).
    Likes 1246m liked this post

  4. #4
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Heber City, UT
    Posts
    396
    Post Thanks / Like
    Car, health, home… in MY opinion all insurance is legalized extortion

    Have a home mortgage, gotta have insurance
    Have a car, gotta have insurance
    Bearhawk Companion QB Builder
    Revo Sunglasses Ambassador
    https://www.instagram.com/jay_townsend_utah/
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ0...tBJLdV8HB_jSIA
    Likes GreggB, supercrow, Dog, CharlieN liked this post

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Not really. It is spreading the cost of injury to a few folks over a very wide group. We could do the same thing by eliminating tort litigation and having the taxpayers pick up the tab for those injured souls (including property damage). But the current system is seen as making folks slightly more careful when operating machinery around others.

    Hull is a different story - nobody is forced to buy hull. I am willing to bet that tailwheel hull is going through the roof because of these new quarter-million dollar Cubs playing big props and long rocks.

  6. #6
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2021
    Location
    Arizona, USA
    Posts
    660
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    . I am willing to bet that tailwheel hull is going through the roof because of these new quarter-million dollar Cubs playing big props and long rocks.
    A review of FX-3 accidents (and presumably insurance losses) will show that none fall into that category. They are almost all loss of control accidents on big paved runways. Most seem to involve pilots with low time in type and low tail wheel time.
    Last edited by frequent_flyer; 07-29-2021 at 02:10 PM.
    Likes Steve Pierce, stid2677, tomv35atc liked this post

  7. #7
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,783
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    A review of FX-3 accidents (and presumably insurance losses) will show that none fall into that category. They are almost all loss of control accidents on big paved runways. Most seem to involve pilots with low time in type and low tail wheel time.
    Yep, just swapped a wing on an FX3, $40K repair. My labor was a very, very small percentage of the ticket. Key is going to be availability of repair parts and a network of qualified shops to do the work tour Crafters standards.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Likes DENNY liked this post

  8. #8
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,677
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Not really. It is spreading the cost of injury to a few folks over a very wide group. We could do the same thing by eliminating tort litigation and having the taxpayers pick up the tab for those injured souls (including property damage). But the current system is seen as making folks slightly more careful when operating machinery around others.

    Hull is a different story - nobody is forced to buy hull. I am willing to bet that tailwheel hull is going through the roof because of these new quarter-million dollar Cubs playing big props and long rocks.
    You think tailwheel is bad, look at anfib. It more than doubled for me in a year, and they donít give you a rate for when your on floats. Itís an anfib rate all year. Tried avemco and they said the registered owner name sounds like a commercial operation and we donít cover that. Bwi quoted me $2600 less than my current insurance. I started shopping around when they said insurance was $6500 for floats.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    We ran into that. $7500 for a Cub on Wips, no open pilot warranty. Just to get me "named" would have been an additional $800.

  10. #10
    flynlow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Fowler, Ks
    Posts
    687
    Post Thanks / Like
    My $65k cub is $1284
    The $100k RV8 is $1294.
    My odometer will be rolling to 73 this OctÖmost likely..
    My rate is a bit lower yhan last year




    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like
    It is most definitely government endorsed/encouraged legalized extortion

    When the stock market drops insurance goes up due to less earnings with the percentage of the Money they have to hold for the policy period.

    Our Government in Canada just doubled minimum liability and passenger coverage for Air taxi that did not help either.

    One excuse for 135 insurance going through the roof was due to some 80 Boing 737 max aircraft parked at Calgary getting
    severe hail damage when they where of line.

    In the air-taxi world we got 80 increases in 3 Years with 0 loss history 25 years in business.

    Our long standing Insurer got bought out by one of the big guys no more Mr nice guy or long standing relationships matter after that.

    Politicians- Banksters and insurance Underwriters all the same club and you are not in it as George Carline used to Point out.

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,762
    Post Thanks / Like
    Dog
    When it comes to insurance it is not just you it is everyone standing next to you that is included!!! I know of several High buck experimental aircraft that needed major rebuilds within the first few years of life. It is hard for insurance venders to make a buck charging one grand per plane when a single accident can cost 200 grand just for the rebuild. And if people get hurt is really gets big. Even worse for the 135 crowd, not that many putting money into the bank for when the 206 full of people flys into a mountain. If you get on a commercial flight and break you back in a crash, to you want someone to pay the bill or have them say suck it up no law says we have to have insurance? I pay a few grand with AVEMCO for my cub well worth it for the places I fly and things I do.
    DENNY

  13. #13
    cubdrvr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    YKN(mother city of the dakotas)
    Posts
    1,344
    Post Thanks / Like
    My -18 renewal at 76 was 1750 for 80K. This is with Global. Avemco was 100 bucks less but their liability was less also.
    Avemco said price increases are at 71, 76, and 81.
    Wasn't that long ago it was at 1200.
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
    Thanks Bowie thanked for this post

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    67.8N,115.1W CYCO Canada
    Posts
    1,041
    Post Thanks / Like
    When the insurance company asked for $3,000 last year I decided to drop the 80K in hull insurance. I now just have liability at over $1,200. The liability is a requirement in Canada and, for me is an unconscionable rate given that where I fly there is no property to destroy and I only fly with my wife, who is unlikely to sue (but you never know!). I'm sure that my age (73) has something to do with the high rates I'm quoted, but if I lose the airplane, well ... my flying career might be coming to an end within a few years anyway so I'll take the risk.
    Likes Colorguns, Pete Schoeninger liked this post

  15. #15
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    12,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    My -18 renewal at 76 was 1750 for 80K. This is with Global. Avemco was 100 bucks less but their liability was less also.
    Avemco said price increases are at 71, 76, and 81.
    Wasn't that long ago it was at 1200.
    Well, when I hit 71, AVEMCO decreased my rate by $50.

    MTV
    Likes DENNY liked this post

  16. #16
    cubdrvr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    YKN(mother city of the dakotas)
    Posts
    1,344
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Well, when I hit 71, AVEMCO decreased my rate by $50.

    MTV
    Yeah, but I'm not Mike Vivion from Bozeman, MT
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

  17. #17
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,783
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    My -18 renewal at 76 was 1750 for 80K. This is with Global. Avemco was 100 bucks less but their liability was less also.
    Avemco said price increases are at 71, 76, and 81.
    Wasn't that long ago it was at 1200.
    I will give you $80K for it, can be there with the $ next week.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Likes jrussl liked this post

  18. #18
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    12,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    Yeah, but I'm not Mike Vivion from Bozeman, MT
    I may have to come over there to SD and splain how to talk to them people…. Ya just need the right words….

    That said, I hold my breath every time I get an insurance bill. And this year, I’m thinking I’m going to really need to increase stated value. If you haven’t looked at airplane prices lately, you might want to revisit your stated value……

    MTV
    Likes Eddy Lewis, jrussl, G44 liked this post

  19. #19
    aktango58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    18AA
    Posts
    9,781
    Post Thanks / Like
    Everyone seems to complain about the cost and sometimes requirement of liability.

    Just a couple for instances- what happens if some day you are taxiing at Johnson Creek and you through a rod, which puts a hole in your oil pan and your oil drains out in front of the Forest Circus? You get the wrong ranger, and you will be paying for some environmental clean up.

    Wind storm in Anchorage and the Valley last week, sounds like about fifteen planes destroyed, some of them broke loose and flew into other planes. You going to be that guy that damaged someone's plane and can not afford to repair it?

    Maybe some can write a $200,000 check to cover such things, many of us can not. I am glad to have insurance, and the older I get the more important it is to me as I see the cost of just defending myself (if needed) continues to go beyond imagination.

    The best part of the insurance is that they will hire attorneys for the first round of arguing.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
    Likes RaisedByWolves, DENNY, kestrel liked this post

  20. #20
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    7,140
    Post Thanks / Like
    I always wondered why in Alaska you’re required by law to have liability insurance to operate a car but there are no insurance requirements to operate at state airports. Having an uninsured plane upwind of me forces my hand to buy full hull coverage. That’s BS in my opinion. Now that I park in a hangar and operate on a private strip I’m considering dropping hull coverage.
    Likes C130jake liked this post

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Everyone seems to complain about the cost and sometimes requirement of liability.

    Just a couple for instances- what happens if some day you are taxiing at Johnson Creek and you through a rod, which puts a hole in your oil pan and your oil drains out in front of the Forest Circus? You get the wrong ranger, and you will be paying for some environmental clean up.

    Wind storm in Anchorage and the Valley last week, sounds like about fifteen planes destroyed, some of them broke loose and flew into other planes. You going to be that guy that damaged someone's plane and can not afford to repair it?

    Maybe some can write a $200,000 check to cover such things, many of us can not. I am glad to have insurance, and the older I get the more important it is to me as I see the cost of just defending myself (if needed) continues to go beyond imagination.

    The best part of the insurance is that they will hire attorneys for the first round of arguing.
    Correct we should have insurance and it should be at a reasonable cost. When my original Insurer was bought out and the next company increased the cost by 60% in one year something seems to be not right. I have seen up and down swings in the 60 to 80% range several times in the last 30 some yeas that I am in the industry. Most are driven by factors not related to loss history of the company or industry segment. All that said I can get private insurance for good rates here in Canada. Low time guys particularly on floatplanes seem to get hosed pretty bad

  22. #22
    G44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    SW Michigan
    Posts
    729
    Post Thanks / Like
    I honestly think the last few years that insurance has been the biggest bargain in aviation. I got completely fleeced in the 90ís and early 2000ís. I pay close to what I pay for car/truck insurance now.I have a late year Husky which isn't cheap and my premiums are crazy low in my opinion. Hull value over 300k, no accidents, incidents, violations, DUIís, 58 years old and I am paying $2,028 per year, I just renewed a few months ago.

    Yes its going up but its still a lot less than it was. I am bothered by the step increases of older pilots, that is bothersome. I realize that some have had some shockingly high increases but all in all I still think its pretty darn reasonable in the lower 48 for most.
    Last edited by G44; 01-17-2022 at 12:23 PM.

  23. #23
    G44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    SW Michigan
    Posts
    729
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I always wondered why in Alaska you’re required by law to have liability insurance to operate a car but there are no insurance requirements to operate at state airports. Having an uninsured plane upwind of me forces my hand to buy full hull coverage. That’s BS in my opinion. Now that I park in a hangar and operate on a private strip I’m considering dropping hull coverage.
    I agree with you on the liability. Liability is reasonably priced compared to hull in Alaska. I think its smart to at least have liability. As far as hull, if your paying a reasonable price for hull ( I know, almost never happens in Alaska) I would give that some serious thought before I dropped hull. JMHO.

  24. #24
    G44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    SW Michigan
    Posts
    729
    Post Thanks / Like
    Don’t under insure your hull value!
    Likes RaisedByWolves liked this post

  25. #25
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    7,140
    Post Thanks / Like
    If you build or buy a high performance experimental Cub you likely won’t find an insurer to cover investment cost or market value. Avemco caps exp Cub insurance at $200K. Carbon Cubs are pushing $400K in some cases. $300K Cubs are common. I’ll revisit the value cap with Avemco when I change status back to in motion.

  26. #26
    sjohnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Boise, ID
    Posts
    810
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by G44 View Post
    Don’t under insure your hull value!
    For classic Cubs, this can be a real problem. Insurance company had to make an exception to insure my recently fully restored Cub for $90k (in 2009). It didn't matter what was in the Cub, they just had a limit based on its age.
    There are three simple rules for making consistently smooth landings. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.

  27. #27
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2021
    Location
    Arizona, USA
    Posts
    660
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    If you build or buy a high performance experimental Cub you likely wonít find an insurer to cover investment cost or market value.
    Avemco wouldn't quote hull for my FX-3. I have it insured with Star Insurance Companies using Northwest Insurance Group as agent. I have it insured for declared value. It's expensive but not as expensive as having an accident and not having hull coverage.

    Teri Branistre at Northwest was willing to work with me to agree minimum experience requirements for the initial coverage and she has been a pleasure to work with.



  28. #28
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Collins, Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,458
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    My -18 renewal at 76 was 1750 for 80K. This is with Global. Avemco was 100 bucks less but their liability was less also.
    Avemco said price increases are at 71, 76, and 81.
    Wasn't that long ago it was at 1200.
    Only 76? You should run for president, you have my vote.

    Wasn't that long ago that avemco screwed a lot of us by cancelling commercial ops policies. This would have been around the time when FBOs started disappearing... The next time you renew with them, ask them why they only help rich boys with toys and not the working class in ga.
    Likes RaisedByWolves liked this post

  29. #29
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    7,140
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ya, why would any for-profit business favor a profitable segment? What were they thinking?
    Likes C130jake liked this post

  30. #30
    akavidflyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soldotna AK
    Posts
    277
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCub MD View Post
    Only 76? You should run for president, you have my vote.

    Wasn't that long ago that avemco screwed a lot of us by cancelling commercial ops policies. This would have been around the time when FBOs started disappearing... The next time you renew with them, ask them why they only help rich boys with toys and not the working class in ga.

    I am gonna guess you can partially thank the youtube guys for this. People keep pushing the limits of their abilities for youtube hits and it ends in lots of wrecked planes. STOL comps with multiple wrecks, guys flying pavement with big tires just cause it looks cool and they can't keep the wingtips outta the dirt (or off the pavement). I would venture a guess that the majority of wrecks that cost the insurance are NOT 135 guys as the majority of the incidents I know of never get turned in and are repaired in house (not to mention that they tend to have less accidents than GA guys because they are more competent at what they do). I learned long ago that anything that moves the SKETCH-O-METER out of the green stays off youtube and social media.

  31. #31

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    180
    Post Thanks / Like
    At 78 I changed to Avemco since my former company wanted a check ride every year. Granted it is for a lowly Tcraft but on amphib floats and skis in the winter. Better rates than the last guy and I guess less than having a SC.

    Jim

  32. #32
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Collins, Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,458
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Ya, why would any for-profit business favor a profitable segment? What were they thinking?


    I understand the insurance industry very well, and I know they are in the business to make a lot of money, I don't have a problem with that. But I feel it is fair to point out that when avemco stopped doing commercial policies it hurt ga. The people that rented you a plane, worked on, fueled, hangered you a plane,, those little people,, avemco forgot them. Give them your money if you want, your choice.
    Thanks C130jake thanked for this post

  33. #33
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    7,140
    Post Thanks / Like
    They didn’t owe anybody anything. It’s business. My 135 friends all got on with life, and business, without a hitch. They were uncertain at first but everything worked out. Those of us in non-aviation industries face similar issues.

  34. #34

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Mt.
    Posts
    1,346
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I will give you $80K for it, can be there with the $ next week.
    hold on there Tex, I have first Dibs on 87D,,,we go back to the beginning her and I.😬

  35. #35
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,783
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCub MD View Post
    Only 76? You should run for president, you have my vote.

    Wasn't that long ago that avemco screwed a lot of us by cancelling commercial ops policies. This would have been around the time when FBOs started disappearing... The next time you renew with them, ask them why they only help rich boys with toys and not the working class in ga.
    That was almost 25 years ago Boz. I haven't had it since. We can blame the lawyers for that. They limited the number of years manufacturers could be held liable so then the lawyers started going after the shops and Avemco bailed.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Likes C130jake liked this post

  36. #36
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,783
    Post Thanks / Like
    My Dad is 83 years old and Avemco is the only viable insurance for him. His agent told him before he turned 80 that he would need to change and he was right. He probably couldn't have gotten a new policy if he had tried after he turned 80.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  37. #37
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Collins, Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,458
    Post Thanks / Like
    25 years? Well hell if I can't do anything else right at least I can hold a grudge. I sure hope ga can hold together for another 25 years, lack of insurance will play a big part in that. Then we will get to be the old guys, flying cubs and swapping stories about the good old days around the fire.
    Likes flynlow, SJ, SteveE, Steve Pierce liked this post

  38. #38
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,783
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCub MD View Post
    25 years? Well hell if I can't do anything else right at least I can hold a grudge.
    SJ says I have the memory of an elephant in that regard.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  39. #39
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    3,869
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCub MD View Post
    25 years? Well hell if I can't do anything else right at least I can hold a grudge......
    That's one of my best qualities too.
    You ever heard of Irish alzheimers?
    That's when you forget everything except your grudges.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Likes C130jake, Farmboy liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-14-2021, 11:23 AM
  2. Insurance
    By brown bear in forum Member to Member
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 11-25-2009, 10:32 PM
  3. Insurance
    By Altsel in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-10-2009, 10:37 PM
  4. Insurance
    By Chris Floyd in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-13-2005, 07:58 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •