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C130 too close and no radio contact

I flew C-130s for 20 years on active duty before retiring three years ago. Four of those years were in Alaska, based at Elmendorf. I did a lot of low level flying in those years, day and night. We typically operated as low as 300 AGL and as fast as 250 knots in support of legitimate training requirements that culminated in an airdrop somewhere or a landing at some airfield. Those drop zones are sometimes in a restricted area, or if not they are sometimes depicted on the sectional. At night, we flew higher and used NVGs which meant that any civilian traffic stood out clearly. Night is probably not where the problem is.

I can only speak for the units I flew in, but we diligently tried to avoid civilian airfields, high-traffic areas, etc. We also tried to make position reports on published CTAF frequencies when we could figure out which frequency is in use. Most military pilots are not active GA pilots and not familiar with "localisms" like might exist in certain high-traffic GA areas like the Knik river valley. We never did impromptu low-level flying. Our routes were always planned and briefed in detail. No "cowboy ops." Also, every C-130 I ever flew had TCAS, and we always used it. If you have a transponder, turn it on. Since I've been out three years, I have no idea how they're doing with ADS-B.

We were also responsive to complaints. Every base I flew from had a safety office, and every safety office had a MACA program (mid-air collision avoidance, in the jargon of the Air Force). Often, the MACA guy would look for opportunities to meet local pilots but just didn't know where to start. If you have a complaint or just want to express your opinion, then by all means call the Wing Safety Office and ask to speak to the MACA guy. That's sort of the "soft" approach. If you're really upset, ask to file a noise complaint or a Hazardous Air Traffic Report. I suppose the FSDO (maybe via the FAAST Team?) could help you get in contact with the right folks on the base if you have no luck with the safety office or can't get through to the flying squadron.

Finally, when I'm out in the Cessna these days I come across plenty of non-military pilots who aren't using CTAF or are using grossly improper procedures. Last time I flew, a Carbon Cub flew a full pattern, landed on the grass next to the runway and then crossed right in front of me with no radio calls despite me being on the freq with them for the past five minutes. Thankfully I saw the ADS-B reply before I entered the pattern so I was looking. But my point is that we need to police ourselves too, in addition to opening the communication with our local military aviators and other airspace users.
 
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Yes, please if you have a near miss or close encounter with a military aircraft, contact the nearest command, and POLITELY talk to them about it.
Years ago, I was circling a wolf northwest of Fairbanks at about 600 or 700 feet or so AGL. A B-52 went UNDER me. Next day, I called Eielson AFB. They didn't have any BUFFS, but I called their wing safety folks. They explained that wasn't one of theirs, but they'd call around and see what they could find out.

This was not in a MOA and not on an MTR. Couple days later, they called me back and said it was a B-52 out of South Dakota, doing a simulated threat ingress from the north.

He was perfectly legal, and they probably knew I was there, but that was a little too close, which I pointed out to the folks at Eielson. They allowed as how they'd pass that along.

So, if they're coming through airport traffic patterns and not on CTAF, call the nearest base and let them know. It may just be ignorance, or it may be a hot dog. Either way, they take this stuff seriously.

MTV
 
I flew C-130s for 20 years on active duty before retiring three years ago. Four of those years were in Alaska, based at Elmendorf. I did a lot of low level flying in those years, day and night. We typically operated as low as 300 AGL and as fast as 250 knots in support of legitimate training requirements that culminated in an airdrop somewhere or a landing at some airfield. Those drop zones are sometimes in a restricted area, or if not they are sometimes depicted on the sectional. At night, we flew higher and used NVGs which meant that any civilian traffic stood out clearly. Night is probably not where the problem is.

I can only speak for the units I flew in, but we diligently tried to avoid civilian airfields, high-traffic areas, etc. We also tried to make position reports on published CTAF frequencies when we could figure out which frequency is in use. Most military pilots are not active GA pilots and not familiar with "localisms" like might exist in certain high-traffic GA areas like the Knik river valley. We never did impromptu low-level flying. Our routes were always planned and briefed in detail. No "cowboy ops." Also, every C-130 I ever flew had TCAS, and we always used it. If you have a transponder, turn it on. Since I've been out three years, I have no idea how they're doing with ADS-B.

We were also responsive to complaints. Every base I flew from had a safety office, and every safety office had a MACA program (mid-air collision avoidance, in the jargon of the Air Force). Often, the MACA guy would look for opportunities to meet local pilots but just didn't know where to start. If you have a complaint or just want to express your opinion, then by all means call the Wing Safety Office and ask to speak to the MACA guy. That's sort of the "soft" approach. If you're really upset, ask to file a noise complaint or a Hazardous Air Traffic Report. I suppose the FSDO (maybe via the FAAST Team?) could help you get in contact with the right folks on the base if you have no luck with the safety office or can't get through to the flying squadron.

Finally, when I'm out in the Cessna these days I come across plenty of non-military pilots who aren't using CTAF or are using grossly improper procedures. Last time I flew, a Carbon Cub flew a full pattern, landed on the grass next to the runway and then crossed right in front of me with no radio calls despite me being on the freq with them for the past five minutes.
Was it blue?
 
I attended a MACA (midwest area colision avoidance) conference at Whiteman Airforce Base (flew my super cub in!) in 2000. It was really great, especially since I won the drawing to fly the B2 Bomber simulator :smile:

sj
 
Doing a crane job on a cell tower a few years ago, I was driving up the farm road to the site when I saw the landowner walking up to where he had parked his tractor the night before. I picked him up and more or less immediately mentioned how I flew a small plane and the rolling terrain of his place was real interesting and would it be OK if I came and played sometime on it when the hay was down? No problem was his response. I must be a good salesman as I have yet to be turned down on a request like this. I did so, of course, lots of hillside LZ's and on the way to other places, and would always fly over the house and waggle my wings.

Then a year or so later he bought some solar panels I was peddling at the time, and I flew in with them as an external load. Only then did we get to talking about what he did before he took over the family ranch: 30 some years in the Air Force I believe he said, as a covert ops forward air controller! He said a few months after he got set up at the ranch, one of his old crew made a hell of a low level fly over as a final send off to him. I found it interesting that it took him that long to mention what he used to do, that usually means he really did it.
 
We had two C17s fly over our house this evening at about 2 wing spans AGL. The first one made an intense sound as it flew over. I went outside in time to see the second one pass overhead following the first one.

These rouges are very unprofessional and dangerous. Not only did they rattle us but from the direction they came from they would have flown right through our traffic pattern. I contacted McChord a few months ago when they were doing this fairly regular. I got no response from them and now they’re at it again.

They’re going to kill some unfortunate local pilot eventually. Our airport lies in the center of a narrow valley so when they make these low level runs they can’t avoid going through our traffic pattern.
 
I've had more than my share of close encounters with military aircraft, fighters, cargo, tankers, etc. One time I was buzzed from behind by two helicopters attached to a Herc by refueling hoses. When I related this event to a very experienced air taxi pilot, his comment was "they haven't hit anybody yet".
 
Too bad you do not find that cool.
Way back when they were training for the Gulf war we had allot of low level training flights. C-130, if I recall 6 at a time came over the hill behind the house and straight out the front yard. Many times with A-10s on wing. These were out of Saratoga where Jake is stationed now. Miss those flights, never knew when they were coming.

Long before that I was relaxing in a canoe with a lady friend on a narrow lake here. Two A-10s flying tree top, first drop right to the water, sees us and pulls up hard, the second went knife edge and move the the edge of the lake about one wingspan off the water.

Wish I had a camera with me that day. Happened so quick I would have missed it all.

We get C-17 and C-5 fueling operations over the house, got some good shots that I posted on a FB image page. Not sure where they are filed.

In a week or so the MOA spanning to the South of us opens, the F-15s get to play, probably with F-35s this year. F-15s from Mass, the 35s from Burlington VT. It is interesting hearing them overhead, not far overhead. Hard deck is 9K, we live just under 1500.
A bit further south near the center of the forest they fire training missiles, these emit a red smoke, no warhead obviously. They have ground troops collect them.
 
Too bad you do not find that cool.
Way back when they were training for the Gulf war we had allot of low level training flights. C-130, if I recall 6 at a time came over the hill behind the house and straight out the front yard. Many times with A-10s on wing. These were out of Saratoga where Jake is stationed now. Miss those flights, never knew when they were coming.

Long before that I was relaxing in a canoe with a lady friend on a narrow lake here. Two A-10s flying tree top, first drop right to the water, sees us and pulls up hard, the second went knife edge and move the the edge of the lake about one wingspan off the water.

Wish I had a camera with me that day. Happened so quick I would have missed it all.

We get C-17 and C-5 fueling operations over the house, got some good shots that I posted on a FB image page. Not sure where they are filed.

In a week or so the MOA spanning to the South of us opens, the F-15s get to play, probably with F-35s this year. F-15s from Mass, the 35s from Burlington VT. It is interesting hearing them overhead, not far overhead. Hard deck is 9K, we live just under 1500.
A bit further south near the center of the forest they fire training missiles, these emit a red smoke, no warhead obviously. They have ground troops collect them.

Those kinds of “encounters” may in fact be pretty cool when viewed from the ground. But this thread is about mid air encounters. Very different circumstances.

MTV
 
Those kinds of “encounters” may in fact be pretty cool when viewed from the ground. But this thread is about mid air encounters. Very different circumstances.

MTV

Early in this thread I related when a flight of C-130s flew diagonally under me from my right rear side, this was back in the mid '80s. There approach was totally blind when flying a side by side. I was southbound at 2,000 or 2500 ish in south central Mass passing by the approach end of their base while in contact with approach of the closest civilian airport. They never offered a traffic report to me. I took it in stride. I recognized they knew I was there.

Our military has a far better view of where we are and are quite able to judge risk. If people are so scared of our military being a risk to us let's weigh in just what that risk is, I know of two mid airs with civilian aircraft in the Southeast in recent decades. Might be more that I do not know of.

How may mid airs between civilian aircraft, for me it is to many to many to count.

I am not afraid of our military aircraft. I am afraid of many of our civilian pilots.
 
Pilots, civilian or military, are just people with all the same deficiencies and strengths. I had numerous military pilots (all branches) fly for me through the years and they were no less (or more) apt to make mistakes and have lapses than civilian pilots.
 
Like the time four F-16's at 400 kts flying UP a narrow canyon at 200' AGL busting an airport traffic pattern with three airplanes in it. You bet they knew... When I complained to the local squadron commander the response was "they were VFR, no problem here".
 
You cannot legally fly a fighter above 250 kts below 10,000 unless you are in protected airspace. They can fly at a safe airspeed. Not 400 kts. The A-10 can fly in unprotected airspace because it can do it safely at 250 kts. I took a fourship up initial one time at a New Mexico airfield in the mountains. I was on their frequency and made the calls. I kind of expected a complaint but I think they liked the airshow.

Like the time four F-16's at 400 kts flying UP a narrow canyon at 200' AGL busting an airport traffic pattern with three airplanes in it. You bet they knew... When I complained to the local squadron commander the response was "they were VFR, no problem here".
 
You cannot legally fly a fighter above 250 kts below 10,000 unless you are in protected airspace. They can fly at a safe airspeed. Not 400 kts. The A-10 can fly in unprotected airspace because it can do it safely at 250 kts. I took a fourship up initial one time at a New Mexico airfield in the mountains. I was on their frequency and made the calls. I kind of expected a complaint but I think they liked the airshow.

The operative term being “legally”. And only a few AF pilots are permitted to fly lower than 500, and none below 300. By AF policy. But, it happens.

MTV
 
The operative term being “legally”. And only a few AF pilots are permitted to fly lower than 500, and none below 300. By AF policy. But, it happens.

MTV

Yes, it happens. When that F-16 threw a rooster tail of snow he 'might' have been pushing the limits.
 
We have property just north of Oklahoma panhandle and years ago I dove off combine into wheat stubble when a very low level B52 buzzed me. I thought the combine had exploded

Years later we were building fence and I saw a B1 coming from a mile away at probably 2-300’ He banked and buzzed us at 50’. My hired man didn’t see him and was crawling out from under his truck as the B 1 disappeared on the horizon
We are under a low level, high speed military route


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
Sleep tight tonight, your Air Force is awake!


We have property just north of Oklahoma panhandle and years ago I dove off combine into wheat stubble when a very low level B52 buzzed me. I thought the combine had exploded

Years later we were building fence and I saw a B1 coming from a mile away at probably 2-300’ He banked and buzzed us at 50’. My hired man didn’t see him and was crawling out from under his truck as the B 1 disappeared on the horizon
We are under a low level, high speed military route


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
Are you an insider on AF policy?

I spent a lot of time working with the AF on the Eastern Alaska MOA Complex. And heard this over and over and over.

Then some folks provided video of the tops of F-16s. (12 of them) passing below them. They were standing on a three hundred foot high bluff on the Charley river.

So, yes, I’m pretty well briefed on those policies. By a Three Star once......

MTV
 
It has vacillated back an forth during my 23 years flying fighters. When I started out as a LT A-7D pilot, it was 100 ft. That basically meant, don't hit the ground. It has crept up to 500 ft as you say. Flying star wars canyon is a trip. Below 500 ft--yeah, probably but you are terrain masking. Did I mention that it is the best thing you can do with your clothes on? And they paid me to do it. We did not go out of our way to buzz anyone. F-111s used to fly at 200 ft supersonic with the autopilot on.

I spent a lot of time working with the AF on the Eastern Alaska MOA Complex. And heard this over and over and over.

Then some folks provided video of the tops of F-16s. (12 of them) passing below them. They were standing on a three hundred foot high bluff on the Charley river.

So, yes, I’m pretty well briefed on those policies. By a Three Star once......

MTV
 
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We finally had a nice weather day and I was out and about on skis. I stopped at Spotted Bear at a nice 5º on the ground. As I turned around to get back into my tracks I noticed a snowmobile about 100 yards off to the side. I shut down and the fellow pulled up. We had a nice visit and he was surprised to see someone land. He's been in there trapping for a while. He mentioned that last winter he'd just pulled onto the strip on his snow machine where the road pulls in when an Airforce plane came over him just over the trees. It was low, loud and fast and continued north over Hungry Horse reservoir just as low. He said it was "One of those cargo planes where the back end opens up." I said that sounds like a C-17.

An anecdotal story from a non-pilot. But he's not going to be making up something like this. I'm glad I wasn't on short final when this 170' wingspan monster was coming over the strip.
 

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Freedom requires a little sacrifice. Training to keep you safe at night1

Yes, please if you have a near miss or close encounter with a military aircraft, contact the nearest command, and POLITELY talk to them about it.
Years ago, I was circling a wolf northwest of Fairbanks at about 600 or 700 feet or so AGL. A B-52 went UNDER me. Next day, I called Eielson AFB. They didn't have any BUFFS, but I called their wing safety folks. They explained that wasn't one of theirs, but they'd call around and see what they could find out.

This was not in a MOA and not on an MTR. Couple days later, they called me back and said it was a B-52 out of South Dakota, doing a simulated threat ingress from the north.

He was perfectly legal, and they probably knew I was there, but that was a little too close, which I pointed out to the folks at Eielson. They allowed as how they'd pass that along.

So, if they're coming through airport traffic patterns and not on CTAF, call the nearest base and let them know. It may just be ignorance, or it may be a hot dog. Either way, they take this stuff seriously.

MTV
 
You would think in this day and age there would be a spectrum frequency that monitored traffic within a radius of the military aircraft (they set - 1 mile - 5 mile whatever appropriate for their speed). I almost lost my commercial instructor at 200 feet on takeoff to an A-7 and that was 40 years ago. So I certainly agree about near airport operations - there needs to be better communication. As for reservoir, valley, etc., flying - they have to do this in the C-130's and others. Terrain following is a big deal and a major part of what Ayres taught both little and big pilots from Dothan. Today they practice low level ops out here on the reservoir in their C130's and when I'm out in the boat I'll try and get some pics or film of them. Low level maneuvering (ruddering & cross control (art/science of flying forum) in a big plane is awesome stuff and has to be practiced often or a crash will certainly occur. I get what they're doing and why, but airports should be strictly off limits.
 
Locally the C-130s have been quite active with low level practicing. My house is a touch under 1300' hill the north side of my land is about 1900. It is cool to watch a flight of 6 go by in view out my living room. When I get on a tracking site they went around the hill from the west and head south from our house. There are times my wife is in the yard and comments the right seater was looking at her.
Most all the traffic approaching our local airport which is 6 miles away at 600' is well above the 130s.
I have been up flying and watched the F16s pass by lower than us. We have F35s locally now but they do not seem to play around here.
 
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