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Thread: It's only a matter of time before they realize GA is still using leaded fuel

  1. #1
    aeroaddict's Avatar
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    It's only a matter of time before they realize GA is still using leaded fuel

    First emissions standards set for commercial aircraft by the EPA.

    UPDATE 2-U.S. EPA Finalizing First-ever Airplane Emissions Rules | Newsmax.com

  2. #2

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    all part of the plan. Look at how many relatively new 777, 787's retired due to Covid. The age of the throw away airliner is here. Got to keep those "too big to fail" fat cats alive.....
    When I was flying for a living, I was flying 25 yr old 737's. They did the job very well. (and you actually got to fly...)

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    cruiser's Avatar
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    The FAA PAFI initiative took a nose dive when Shell failed to meet the standards leaving Swift Fuel as the only viable supplier. IMO had Shell provided an unleaded fuel that met the standard we would already be lead free.
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    Rotax
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    aeroaddict's Avatar
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    Automotive gas is an option for some, but those of us running hopped up engines, we are stuck with 100LL.
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    Premium car gas after one month = 87 octane or less. Lots of volatiles to meet the EPA regional regs.
    Been there, done that. Had a local supplier pump out 1200 gals (1500 delivered) of supposedly ethanol free unleaded that made the cars run like crap. Using the same in my 180. Actually turned staw colored. Two months in the tank. He actually told me that there must have been diesel in the tank before the load. I showed him that he was the last supplier for fuel in that tank.......Totally could be a local thing, not wiling to chance again.
    I like stuff that can store for months.
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    Hardtailjohn's Avatar
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    I remember when I was hauling fuel. We bought a half million gallons of unlead at a jobber and started to haul...it looked like iced tea and stunk really bad, but it was cheap. Hauled it to all our "border" stations and they loved it because it was cheap. It sure raised cane with valves and seals on the trucks, not to mention piping! Glad I knew which stations NOT to fill up at!!
    John
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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    We run through about 15 gallons a week - no time for it to sit. I try to get a shot of 100LL about once a month to care for the valve seats. Seems to be ok so far - been doing that for over 40 years in one Cub - the second for ten years, and the third - well, it has a Becker comm, and may be down for this week. I hate Beckers.

    My favorite autos are a pair of 1965 Mustang convertibles. They often sit for a month or more - then start right up. Of course, the technology in 1965 was close to that in 1938, when Continental was the cutting edge, along with Case tractors.
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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I guess the premium no-ethanol we get here must be pretty good. A lot of jetboat operators use it and wouldn't put up with something that doesn't store well.

    I used to have to use Stabil or some other additive in my garden tractor that sat all winter. Premium non-ethanol fixed that problem. My generators, chainsaws, outboards--all of them never get gunked up.

    The only problem is it is not much less expensive than 100LL.
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    They are coming after GA anyway. Lead or no lead. Give them any concessions and you just make it easier.
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    aeroaddict's Avatar
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    You are correct. We see it when they try to close airports. Insurance is getting more expensive.

    I would bet most non aviation people would cringe if they knew that there are armature built planes (EAB) flying over them.

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    I'd wager 99.9% of the gen pub doesn't even realize avgas (or that there even a thing called avgas for that matter ) still has lead in it, I'd also wager that most probably don't even know the history of lead as an additive to motor fuels, and the fact that it has been largely phased out. It's probably one of the biggest potential sh*tstorms that could hit general aviation, if the wrong crowd got riled up about it. Bigger then any noise and landing off airport issues.

    My last batch, 280 gallons, of E-0 premium cost me $2.50 a gallon, while avgas in my area was $4.25-75 or so. Since my modded Rotax can safely burn low octane/regular at my field elevation, I don't worry about any octane loss in storage. I have never had any fuel issues whatsoever, and have been using mogas exclusively for decades.

    I recently was doing some crane work at a new gas station going in my area. The way they deal with the buried tanks was very interesting. They had "special" inspectors there, state or federal, maybe both, who watched the entire process, clipboards and cameras in hand. The way they run the lines from the tanks to the above ground tanks was a whole nother big deal, safeguards upon safeguards, leak detectors up the wazoo. I've also worked out at the big tank farm where our fuel comes in from SLC's pipeline. Overall it was reassuring to see what goes into what comes out of the nozzle, and it's amazing it's as cheap as it is.
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    I've been burning mogas for years, since before the E10 craze.
    Remember when they used to call it "gasahol"? Musta been back in the 80's?
    My local source for 87 octane E-zero mogas is selling it for about $3.25.
    Big cost saving vs avgas...until recently.
    It's still $5.25 or so at my home airport,
    but 100LL prices are dirt cheap these days at high volume airports-
    but Arlington KAWO has it right now for $4.30 & Chehalis KCLS is $3.92.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I've been burning mogas for years, since before the E10 craze.
    Remember when they used to call it "gasahol"? Musta been back in the 80's?
    My local source for 87 octane E-zero mogas is selling it for about $3.25.
    Big cost saving vs avgas...until recently.
    It's still $5.25 or so at my home airport,
    but 100LL prices are dirt cheap these days at high volume airports-
    but Arlington KAWO has it right now for $4.30 & Chehalis KCLS is $3.92.
    I still call it gasahol, LOL.

    Our premium e-free is around 3.50-3.75 lately.

    100 LL hovers around 4.00-4.30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardtailjohn View Post
    I remember when I was hauling fuel. We bought a half million gallons of unlead at a jobber and started to haul...it looked like iced tea and stunk really bad, but it was cheap. Hauled it to all our "border" stations and they loved it because it was cheap. It sure raised cane with valves and seals on the trucks, not to mention piping! Glad I knew which stations NOT to fill up at!!
    John
    Two fuel orders ago....crowley delivered 5,000 gallons yellow 87 octane marine unleaded... wasn’t happy. Turns out the gasoline was refined from Canadian oil shale....


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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    100LL at our little airport is $3.50. The convenience store 87 oct E0 is 2.50, 87 E10 is 2.10 and E15 is 2.05. 20 miles away, 91 E0 is usually 60 or 70 cents more than E10. I still buy E85(70 to 85% ethanol depending on season) for my Ford Focus and F150 even though it isn't much cheaper at this time. Since I am an investor in several ethanol plants I like using it since it and it is a consistent,clean non cancerous, product. I like learning about yellow shale regular and all the other different inconsistencies of gasoline from crude oil. I have an O470U sitting in the back of my pickup waiting to go to Omaha. Probably will do another Pponk but now would be the time to make it either a Texas Skyways O470UTS or 520UTS and get the STC to use AGE85(88% ethanol) that is well over a 100 octane. Texas Skyways and South Dakota State proved it worked.

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    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    As of 30 seconds ago AvGas at my local airport is $5.70
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    Just slight thread drift going on here.

    My point is; if the greenies get in power, there might be extra costs associated with our flying. Out of the box thinking: how about a new requirement of having an EGR?

    I think a good example of this is my first diesel truck compared to what they are now. Please do not misinterpret this, I believe emission controls are good and they work. I can recall the LA (CA) basin nearly invisible in the 50's due to smog. Now with 10X's the cars, you can still see the mountains.

    I think the emissions contribution of GA is statistically insignificant. But science doesn't always win nowadays.
    Last edited by aeroaddict; 12-29-2020 at 06:44 PM.

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    To me, my thinking is general aviation contributes peanuts to global pollution. That said, the powers that be must see G/A as easy pickings compared to global shipping....the real polluters of the world.

    Here's a snippet from an article from the Economist March 2017....chew on this for a while

    By burning heavy fuel oil, just 15 of the biggest ships emit more of the noxious oxides of nitrogen and sulphur than all the world’s cars put together.
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerfgoe View Post
    To me, my thinking is general aviation contributes peanuts to global pollution. That said, the powers that be must see G/A as easy pickings compared to global shipping....the real polluters of the world.

    Here's a snippet from an article from the Economist March 2017....chew on this for a while

    By burning heavy fuel oil, just 15 of the biggest ships emit more of the noxious oxides of nitrogen and sulphur than all the world’s cars put together.
    That does it! Let's demand that all large ships be converted to wind power.
    N1PA
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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    That does it! Let's demand that all large ships be converted to wind power.
    They've been kicking that around for quite a while.

    https://newatlas.com/b9-shipping-car...g-ships/23059/

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    They've been kicking that around for quite a while.

    https://newatlas.com/b9-shipping-car...g-ships/23059/
    I'm reminded of this sinking when the crew didn't recognize the sound of a wind shift coming resulting in the loss of the ship and some of the crew. It was hit broadside with a wind gust.
    https://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/04/w...r-bermuda.html
    N1PA
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