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Thread: The big slip

  1. #41
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    Left wing low and I can hold that center line perfectly, right wing low and I always seem to drift right. I need practice on the right wing low
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  2. #42

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    We measured it with my J3 - open door and window on right side, closed window on the left, and right wing down got us coming down half again as fast. Not true of all cubs, but maybe worth a couple trials with a stopwatch?

    These are full rudder slips with nose below the horizon equal amounts. Fast, but we bleed the speed off rapidly before releasing the rudder.

  3. #43
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    I slip a lot I suppose because I always come into my 400' one way uphill strip high, and it's a great way to dump altitude quick. Slow actually, losing altitude WITHOUT gaining speed.

    I've been playing around with fooling the dog, by making a straight in approach from very high up, all throttled back, and slipping it to the max, with full flaps. I just fairly recently noticed my digital VSI gauge doesn't bottom out/stop at 2,000 FPM like the old style steam gauge types I've had in the past, as I can show past that. When I do it right, the dog doesn't hear me come in, and I can catch him napping. When I do it wrong, this happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYFM44eWyRc
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  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Now this is a good point and question from me. So, I normally slip nose right almost no matter the wind although many people have admonished me to slip nose into the wind. Now on a decent and/or gusty crosswind this puts the high wing into the wind and in my mind increases the chance of getting a gust under the wing and now having a problem fighting the upwind wing back down on short final.

    Anybody have any thoughts on how to slip in a crosswind?
    Sooooo are you slipping to loose altitude, adjust for crosswind, or better vis?? I thinks this may get back to my crab and kick post. Did they know you had a slip in mind, not a crab? In the Pacer I would normally slip nose right because of better view. But always landed with wing low on windward side. You want to be able to slip in both directions because of crosswind. On the few times I am at correct altitude on final With a crosswind I just cross control (forward slip) to maintain centerline. In the pacer nose right gave me a much better view I just made sure I adjusted for centerline and put proper wing down on landing. Without a crosswind a hard slip will take you off centerline. Just be prepared to slip to the other direction to correct if needed. See previous post on altitude when learning the transition.
    DENNY
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  5. #45
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Kick the crab here

    Gary
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  6. #46
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Full-rudder slip with full flaps, initiated with a near-knife-edge = drop like an anvil. Love it! On the other hand, a highly experienced buddy sez if you gotta slip you planned poorly. I told him I'd ignore that. I think he's jealous cuz his 180 can't slip as effectively as a Cub.
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  7. #47
    TVATIVAK71's Avatar
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    I think a slip is an great tool. I do whenever I need it....in our Cub and C-140.

    A long time ago I watched a high time captain (long since retired and probably reading this) end up a bit high on a visual into JNU. I was new to the plane (737-200) as we were crossing Barlow Cove and I was thinking we were going around, he ever so gently slipped it back to his desired path and continued on. I had never seen it done in a jet before. Nobody complained about it. Over the years I seen some old timers use it but even then a few admitted it was a bad way to recover from a poorly planned approach. One thing to use it in a GA plane another can of worms using it in a passenger jet. Can you do it “Of Course” that being said it’s frowned upon. At work anyway.
    Last edited by TVATIVAK71; 12-07-2020 at 02:18 AM.
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  8. #48

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    I was in the back of a 727 years ago, running late with an over zealous Captain. Over explained everything on the PA about the mechanical we were experiencing, that it wasn’t really a big deal to fly with it inop but he was required to fix it, walked us through what was wrong, how they fix it, sign off, etc... Then told us he was going to get us back on schedule, he hated being late, not to worry. Fast taxi, rolling takeoff, told us he’d stay at lower altitude to go faster. Flaps, gear come out and the next thing I know we’re in an aggressive slip toward the runway in SLC. Laying sideways in the seat, people screaming. I was not impressed.
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  9. #49
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    It is possible to slip a B-727 without anyone being aware. Imagine slipping with full flaps and the speed brakes extended! You can almost beat a rock to the ground!
    N1PA
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  10. #50
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    cgnesin took some video a few years back of slipping into the "back yard" at Luckeys Landing. To be fair I'll post the links to both of them to show that every time one thinks they are the end all be all the bottom drops out.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aOrKlcCyKM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_q1HezlPZk

    Good fun. Hard to beat a really basic Cub.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special
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  11. #51
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    During my recent training, yes fairly newly minted Sport Pilot here, my cousin who is a Delta Pilot and retired Air Force A-10 pilot told me about slipping the 767 in at Lagos, Nigeria. Said the wings really flutter with the winglets. He did say he warned the co-pilot and officers prior to doing so.

    He got his Tailwheel endorsement a couple of years ago and used the words “monkey” and “football” to describe his learning a tailwheel. I laughed as I learned in a tailwheel... I know that is not very 2020 of me, but that is how I learned.
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  12. #52

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    Timing is everything- turned on Smithsonian channel this morning, and Air Disasters was on. One of the incidents they covered was the Gimli glider. It showed and discussed the captain putting the 767 into a major slip to make the drag strip....
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  13. #53
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    Both of the historical glider events were quite the deal. They were everyday hero’s doing their job. Today likely be fired on the spot.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    .... I think he's jealous cuz his 180 can't slip as effectively as a Cub.
    I do side-slips when required for a crosswind (or is that a forward slip? I can't ever remember which is which ).
    But I don't think I've ever done an "I'm too high" slip to increase the descent rate in my C180, or my old C150TD.
    What works well for me is to pull the nose up & get it slowed down to just a bit above stall speed.
    Works great, airplane comes down like a brick.
    (Tommy Lee Jones does this in the space shuttle sim in "Space Cowboys",
    as did Clint Eastwood later in the real shuttle--
    added a lot of credibility to the movie for me)
    Doesn't this maneuver work in flap-less airplanes?
    I rarely if ever see it discussed on forums like this one.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  15. #55
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    It's sometimes hard to convince others that first climbing can later increase descent. I do it often but there is a lag involved as speed bleeds. Being convinced it works first helps. Had only one Old Timer instructor demonstrate the procedure. The rest wanted to either dirty up the plane or slip.

    Gary

  16. #56

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    Hotrod - me too. They say that the difference in nomenclature has to do with what you are trying to accomplish, not what the aircraft is doing.

    And yes, a J3 without flaps will come down at about 40 indicated almost as steeply as in a full rudder slip.

    As for the crab and kick? I have seen it done once - in a 737 - and not successfully. FO was an Air Force guy, and I had flown as his FO on another airline. He briefed it, I said ok, and we did not damage anything. But, yikes!

    I am not skilled enough to even dream of doing that in a Cub or 180 - and remember, there will be days when, due to crosswinds, I will be the only pilot flying at the world's 11th busiest GA airport.

  17. #57
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    HAnd yes, a J3 without flaps will come down at about 40 indicated almost as steeply as in a full rudder slip.
    I've experimented with this quite a bit and it just comes out of the air so much faster at 45 and a good slip. Plus I feel that carrying 5 extra MPH and slipping versus getting the plane on the bleeding edge of stalling...the slip seems safer.
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  18. #58
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    "Add all the gust and half the crosswind" has been suggested for the approach speed, slips or not, if stalling or high rate of descent is a concern. Slipping in calm air versus breezy condx is a different bird. Plus, floating around near the stall tends to move the plane off the flight path versus driving it to the runway with good control surface action. Results vary by aircraft and pilot.

    Gary
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  19. #59
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I did some experimenting in my -12 from a repeatable location, altitude, and airspeed, all with full flaps and power at idle.

    I compared distance to landing by reducing speed to near-stall, and by diving at nearly max flap speed. The dive resulted in more rapid energy dissipation than near-stall, i.e. reduced glide distance. I attribute it to drag varying as speed squared. So even though drag coefficient is probably less in the dive as compared to the high AOA while slow, the speed part of drag apparently more than compensated.

    A very experienced buddy suggested I give it a try. I was skeptical, but he was right. It's now part of my toolbox.
    Gordon

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  20. #60
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    In general I think the nose up-slow-descend method versus the dive dirty varies by aircraft weight and configuration. Take a heavy dirty C-185 on floats with flaps hanging and for me the dive dirty ended up still needing more energy dissipation (momentum) to land precisely, a technique that takes time to perfect especially with any wind shear. I could do better by first slowing to a V-speed then establish a stabilized approach ending in a minimum flare. With the Cubs or others being lighter and given to more floating around unless the air was smooth I prefer speed then slip if required. Having some air still flowing over the controls inspires confidence.

    Gary
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  21. #61
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    In general I think the nose up-slow-descend method versus the dive dirty varies by aircraft weight and configuration.
    This is no doubt true, however my buddy (retired Reeve Aleutian captain) told me he's successfully used that technique in a wide variety of planes. But all I know from personal experience is my -12. So my suggestion would be to do some controlled experimentation in one's own plane and go by those results.
    Gordon

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  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    This is no doubt true, however my buddy (retired Reeve Aleutian captain) told me he's successfully used that technique in a wide variety of planes. But all I know from personal experience is my -12. So my suggestion would be to do some controlled experimentation in one's own plane and go by those results.
    I believe the "Dive Dirty to Land" method has been extensively researched and practiced by our very own Overeasy Guy. He has, for years, made extensive use of the this procedure to land his Super Cub. What's more is he often accompanies the maneuver with a healthy does of power to really get hauling in that last few hundred feet of flight. The maneuver is completed following contact with the ground on the mains with a very healthy dose of brakes.

    It really is a spectacular method of landing a Super Cub and has provided hours of enjoyment for those fortunate enough to witness his unique technique in action.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
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  23. #63
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Just opinion: Flaps or none can dictate and affect the method. I learned in a 7ECA where slips were preferred to get down now using fuselage profile drag. Then an instructor demonstrated the nose up-slow down-descend method. But for me to be comfortable that takes air that not too disturbed by mechanical turbulence. As mentioned it does take adequate air over the controls to fly with authority particularly when it's gusting.

    The revelation that supported the "dive dirty method" were flaps. First in a PA-18, then a Beaver, then a C-185. How nice it was to be able create drag without slips that then required power and nose down to maintain glide path plus chosen airspeed. Point and shoot to the ground. Watch an Otter or Twin Otter with double slotted flaps land....and now the PStol flaps same-o.

    Slips have their place (like Taylorcraft or J-3) but if given a choice I'd take the drag of flaps or extended gear instead.

    Edit: I might add that diving near Vfe but below Va was preferred in turbulence; if relatively calm I prefer the slow and fly a stabilized an approach near 1.2-1.3 Vso.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 12-07-2020 at 09:33 PM.
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  24. #64
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    This a great discussion. Now I have a whole bunch of things to try out!
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  25. #65
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I agree with #63. In Stick and Rudder, Langewische emphasizes low speed to get down at a steep angle, rather than dive. However, that doesn't address using flaps. In my T-Craft, and in my -12 before I installed flaps, slow and maybe a slip was the ticket.
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  26. #66
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    "Dive dirty"....seems like the extra speed would result in a lot of float after getting down into ground effect at the runway.
    I see a lot of high speed final approaches ("diving for the runway") at my airport,
    generally resulting in a looong float down the runway before touching down.
    I often comment "there goes another guy working on his float rating".
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  27. #67
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    "Flying on the edge is safe as long as you know where the edge is."

    Sage advice for many things in life. Problem is, the location of "The Edge" was often illusive to me. Closer proximity to "The Edge" often results in the exponential increase in the exhilaration factor.
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966
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  28. #68
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    If you're landing with no obstacles to clear, I would agree that flying as close to stall speed as the wind conditions will allow, and using power to control the last few feet of descent may well produce the shortest landing roll. Steve Henry's recent video for the National STOL competition shows this pretty clearly. You can see him "hovering" along for maybe 30-50 feet, tweaking the throttle to remain airborne. Then, as he arrives at the line, he dumps the power and the plane immediately lands with a VERY short rollout. Thankfully, he's got long-stroke gear to handle the somewhat "stout" landing.

    But with more "normal" airplanes, and more "typical" pilot skill (Steve is way more skilled than I), and in a more "typical" short-field situation with obstacles in the approach path, that technique would have me spending a LOT of time in what we helicopter pilots refer to as the "deadman's curve" airspeed/altitude profile. Since I'd be already right at the stalling speed, if the engine quit while I was above the trees, wires, or other obstacles, I'd have no remaining options... I definitely would be going to hit an obstacle, and the odds of damaging the plane (and/or myself) are pretty much 100%.

    The so-called "dive dirty" technique is NOT, in my opinion, the "other" true alternative to the "nose high and slow" approach in real-world short-field situations. I've seen a few pilots at some of the STOL competitions try the "dive dirty" technique in the "over a 50-foot obstacle" competitions. They approach just barely above the obstacle height with full flaps. As soon as they clear the obstacle, they drop the nose (dive) to lose that altitude. Every time I've seen it used, it resulted in the airplane accelerating just enough to go floating down the runway in ground effect, with correspondingly increased landing distances. I've never seen a competitive short landing result from that technique. And if it doesn't work in those highly controlled "contest" circumstances, in airplanes typically optimized for STOL contests, flown by some of the most skilled STOL pilots on the planet, what would lead me to think it would work in my airplane out in the "real world"? For me, the "dive dirty" approach is a non-starter.

    By contrast, the folks who establish a stabilized descent angle that clears the obstacle at the steepest angle they can maintain to the landing point (flaps, slip, or some combination of the two) have more options available once the clear the obstacle. They could lower the nose, but that will likely increase their landing distance (see above). They are more likely to be already using power to maintain their descent profile, so that they are still flying just above the stall speed as they cross the line, so there is less floating down the runway, and they wind up with shorter landing distances as a result.

    For as for me, I'm way more of an "ordinary" (mere mortal) pilot, flying a pretty capable but more "ordinary" airplane – nothing like the specially prepared Carbon Cubs, Huskies, and "one-off" special-purpose STOL contest aircraft. The airplane is probably more capable than I am, if I'm honest with myself. And the main reason I would choose to use the "stabilized descent angle" comes down to preserving more options. If the engine quits, I'm still going to clear the obstacle(s) on my chosen glide path, so an engine failure carries a lower risk. And if it does quit, I have the option to use some of my "zoom reserve" to clear that last tree, then lower the nose to restore the energy for flaring, knowing that it's better to "roll" into an obstacle at the end of my landing (where I'd be going pretty slow) than to hit something while at flying speed.

    Just one (average) man's thoughts on the subject...
    Jim Parker
    2007 Rans S-6ES

  29. #69
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    In my experiments with diving or near-stall, the float distance was not dramatically different. But the distance was shorter diving. However, that was near Vfe (85 in the Cub).

    An advantage of the speed is "energy in the bank" as stated. An example - yesterday I landed over a significant obstacle due to winds. By significant, I mean a fairly steep hill 1000 ft or more high right off the end of the strip. In quiet winds I would use slow speed and easily sink as required. But yesterday's winds were gusty and a little extra speed coupled with a slight dive after clearing the last trees had me touching down at the normal spot.

    I've done some spot-landing playing with friends, landing over an obstacle (just a few feet high). In that case nice and slow with a little shot of power to flare seemed to be the best.

    To me, bottom line is to have more than one tool in one's toolbox, though I've learned that once a tool is chosen to stay with it and not keep changing my mind.
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  30. #70

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    So now that I have pontificated on how great a steep/slow approach and slips I will say sometimes it does not work. If the approach air is extremely turbulent you can get pushed down or lifted up a great example is Skwetna STOL comp. Getting through that last 30 feet is sometimes best done by getting the nose down and sticking the landing. Hitting your spot 5 mph faster is about the same as a 50 ft float over the spot landing. I agree with Gordon more tools the better.
    DENNY
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  31. #71
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    An advantage of the speed is "energy in the bank" as stated. An example - yesterday I landed over a significant obstacle due to winds. By significant, I mean a fairly steep hill 1000 ft or more high right off the end of the strip. In quiet winds I would use slow speed and easily sink as required. But yesterday's winds were gusty and a little extra speed coupled with a slight dive after clearing the last trees had me touching down at the normal spot.
    In gusty conditions as you describe, I find that a steep approach with minimum power minimizes the turbulent ride reducing the manhandling of the controls. Dragging in with power exposes the under side of the wing to the waves of air. Imagine motoring across a lake in a boat with the bow high and the waves slapping the bottom. It a very rough ride. Next imagine skimming across the same waves at a bit higher speed with the angle of the bottom flat to the path over the surface. The ride is smoother. Allowing the plane's nose to seek it's own angle without power minimizes the airwaves turbulence. Thus a smoother descent with less control manipulation and fewer surprises.

    oops: DENNY beat me to it.
    N1PA
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  32. #72

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    Guessing he doesn't fly many loads into short mountain strips with that 180.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    Full-rudder slip with full flaps, initiated with a near-knife-edge = drop like an anvil. Love it! On the other hand, a highly experienced buddy sez if you gotta slip you planned poorly. I told him I'd ignore that. I think he's jealous cuz his 180 can't slip as effectively as a Cub.

  33. #73

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    "A slip is the result of poor planning" WTF? When you turn final, with a bit of slip required, you can still make the numbers if your engine quits and you encounter even the slightest bit of sink. Perfect planning, if you ask me, and something to practice. Using power on final teaches nothing but dependence on power.

    Question: Gordon points out that drag increases with the square of speed. So why doesn't speeding up in a slip work? The whole fuselage is now getting that square-law drag increase.
    What's a go-around?
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  34. #74
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    I'm in the group that slips almost every landing, I like the visibility and its just how I've gotten comfortable controlling my decent. I also almost always do a left wing low slip, only time I do it other way is for crosswind and I'll admit I'm rusty at it.

    this video was in another thread on here somewhere but I'll repost seeing it seems some people think a slip is as bad as a skid when its not and this guy does the best job explaining I've seen yet.


  35. #75

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    There is more than one slip. For example, you have the slip with the rudder pedal in 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% and then also everything in between. They are all different and they feel different too. I feel like I have limited mental horsepower and muscle memory. I can only be proficient at one type of slip in my lifetime, so I do it with the pedal in 100%.

    Getting to center line and staying on glide path and maintaining approach speed is then a matter of stick control and throttle only. After 15 years in a Cirrus, relearning the slip in a SuperCub has been a little challenging, but eliminating the rudder variable has made it a little easier.

    My 2 cents.
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  36. #76
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    "A slip is the result of poor planning" WTF? When you turn final, with a bit of slip required, you can still make the numbers if your engine quits and you encounter even the slightest bit of sink. Perfect planning, if you ask me, and something to practice. Using power on final teaches nothing but dependence on power.
    He was mostly just razzing me. Though that particular time I WAS way too high and had to slip aggressively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    Question: Gordon points out that drag increases with the square of speed. So why doesn't speeding up in a slip work? The whole fuselage is now getting that square-law drag increase.
    Agree. End up going faster than otherwise, but total energy is dissipated faster. Same with diving to max flap extension speed to dump energy.
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  37. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by labrador_cub View Post
    I'm in the group that slips almost every landing, I like the visibility and its just how I've gotten comfortable controlling my decent. I also almost always do a left wing low slip, only time I do it other way is for crosswind and I'll admit I'm rusty at it.

    this video was in another thread on here somewhere but I'll repost seeing it seems some people think a slip is as bad as a skid when its not and this guy does the best job explaining I've seen yet.


    I'm sure the woman in the audience on her cell phone got a lot from the presentation.

  38. #78

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    I think sometimes the learn-ed don't communicate as effectively with the unlearn-ed as they could. I think it's because they haven't been mentally where the people they are teaching are for some time. Not faulting them for that and great respect for their abilities. Example from the video: The guy on the left makes the point of how screwed you are when you get in the skid-stall but fails to add that relief is just getting the airplane out of it by lowering the nose some. For me, the little things you can remember easily are the life-savers. Unload the wing! Step on the high wing that's coming up! In the critical moment, you have to just have one thought to grab. Understanding the entire situation is great but...you see where I'm going. (Push the mixture back in, the other knob is the carb heat.)
    I was taught to slip early and I do it when needed and don't worry about it. One of the tools in the box. (Sometimes helps to let unsuspecting passengers know what's coming tho)
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  39. #79
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    I was out doing a tailwheel sign off in a Citabria the other day and ended up teaching slips to a short field landing. I demonstrated at altitude and we played a bit and the plane would not spin enter without reefing it into it with excessive pitch to wipe the lift off the forward wing. It was a good lesson and never once was the airspeed indicator used to teach; the stick and feel taught it.

    We did one "normal" pattern and I noted his altitude in reference to the target and what a normal glidepath looked like.

    We went back around and set an airspeed at the perch and held the nose up to hold that (quit looking at the airspeed and tell me what it is by feel was the teaching moment there) and made a constant turn to final. Reaching final we set the amount of sink needed with a slip and kept a sight picture of the target in view. We slipped into the wind and away from the wind to show how drift could be affected by a crosswind. One issue he kept having was the transition to coordinated flight (with crosswind correction) below 100 feet. He had a tendency to round out to arrest the sink rate and push for the spot we were trying to hit and float with the added airspeed. With a couple of tries he got a rhythm and learned to not let the rate build up late but rather start higher and start scrubbing off some sink rate at 500' rather than try to correct it all at once at round out where he scrubbed speed to touchdown. I taught him airspeed is advisory as the slip affects the static system (I was taught that) and if you enter at a speed you likely are going to exit on the speed if you don't let the nose drop or pull on it too much in the slip (we demonstrated this at altitude).

    One other interesting thing was the reaction of the stall horn to the slip and his built in muscle memory to immediately power out of any blip from it. That took a little unlearning as in slips that stall warning, like the pitot, can give some blips and blurps as it is designed with a certain relative wind in mind. We had to work on respecting it but not reacting and aborting if it blipped. I am not sure his college rote aviation training program will like the lesson, but he left with a smile and really enjoyed poking around that end of the envelope.

    Great lesson and I went out and repeated it in my 180 after by myself. I was a bit rusty but got it right after a few circuits. Never know something until you teach it.
    Thanks JeffP thanked for this post
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  40. #80
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Jackson View Post
    Never know something until you teach it.
    Totally agree...

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

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