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Thread: The big slip

  1. #1
    cgoldy's Avatar
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    The big slip

    I am not a numbers man and fly by feel. I fly slow and low 90% of the time and just love it. But sometimes I wonder about my slips. I am comfortable slipping all the way to the flare, full rudder and appropriate aileron. I have been slipping like this for 15 years. But I donít understand what the ASI is telling me. If I am flying at 30 knots, 5 knts above my stall, and radically slip, I often see 45 on the AIS but I donít think I have altered the stick position. I would think in a slip the pitot would be traveling sideways to the airflow and showing a lower IAS. The plane always feels solid and safe in a radical slip. Am I close to something I have not experienced before? Am I subconsciously adding forward stick? Does stick position in relation to stall still apply in a slip? Please no smart arse comments about safe flying.

    cgoldy
    Javron O-375 wide body extended wing cub
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    why dont you just experiment a little? I find this works the best, climb up to an altitude you would be happy to enter a spin from (usually 2000ft AGL is good for me) set an imaginary altitude as "ground" and try a couple of slips with the stick in different positions. not saying you will enter a spin but I am rather happier to be higher than lower

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    Have you tried with a slip to the other side. Just as a test. Reasoning, I would be curious if the fuselage is blanking the spanwise flow and building pressure in the region of the pitot which in a slip to the other side would result in a reduction of pressure in the pitot region.
    Good chance this has no effect as well and is a broken theory.
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

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    I think by going into the slip you have lost some lift so you will increase you downward and vertical speed at the same time, so you are going to have to pick up the nose more to keep the same forward airspeed. The smart guys should correct me if I am wrong. Just go off the gps speed. I would recommend everyone have spin training before attempting what I am going to recommend. I prefer 4,000 ft AGL when I do my hard slip training. In my cub I can do a hard slip and keep pulling back until the upper wing drops, when it does just let the nose down and as the plane comes level move into a slip in the opposite direction much like a exaggerated falling leaf maneuver. Repeat as needed. This keeps you close to the center line on approach. This will also give you a feel for how your plane reacts to a stall during a slip. I was shown this maneuver in a Pacer by my first instructor (old crop-duster) I only had many 40 hours at the time and did not fully understand what was happening but in his hands it was magic. 1400 hours latter and I kind of make it work but not like him. Due to the angles and dangles involved it feels different than a normal slow flight attitude and takes some getting used to. DENNY
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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I was going to say something similar to what Denny and bodumatau said. When I first learned of slips, I was thinking, "how is this going to be different from a spin or snap roll?" I had an instructor who wanted me to learn spins, so we added slips as an entry point to see what happens.

    It became clear that if you were in a normal slip, you had to work pretty hard to get the upper wing to stall. When it got close, it seemed pretty obvious, at least to me.

    I did all this in Tomahawks and Citabrias, and later in a Cessna 172. I think playing with it up high is a really good thing to do.

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    I should try this in a Super Cub with full flaps. In a J3 you can enter a full rudder slip, then slowly pull the stick full aft. It will not stall. I really didn't believe it until I tried it.

    I admire the caution of folks who go to 4000' agl for spin training. If you get into a spin in a Cub that costs you a thousand feet, you really need to study recovery techniques. That is, unless you want multiple turn spins.

    When I teach spins, the recovery starts right after the spin has developed - usuallly a half to 3/4 turn. The hardest part is getting a clean entry.
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    When I did my spin training in a Great Lakes Biplane we tried to enter a spin from the slip the top wing would fall level then go back into a slip if you just held the controls in the same spot. Rick Stowell noted in his book a forward slip is about as safe as you can get. DENNY

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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I was thinking about this all morning. The most extreme "forward slip" would be a knife-edge maneuver. At that point, the wings provide no lift. The fuselage is the lifting body.

    So, as you go from straight and level toward knife edge, wing loading drops and the fuselage takes on more lift. Maybe that's why it is hard to stall the upper wing in a full slip.

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I recall doing extended slips and skids in four Cubs - w or w/o flaps - w or w/o extended wings. I came away believing slips to stall could be managed with available control; skids to stall were more often followed by upset into a pre-spin and were to be avoided.

    Gary
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Colin, Your ASI is telling you to look out the window and stop looking at the instruments. Do you have static ports on your pitot tube? Slipping sideways likely creates a sucking action on the static ports causing an increased speed reading. Sucking on static ports does the same thing as blowing in the pitot.
    Slip it as radically as you feel comfortable. As long as you get a reverse action from the controls when you move them you are not too slow. Unless you've done something to the plane which creates an abrupt quick stall or loss of control, you should be safe standing it on a wing tip with the nose pointing at the sky in a slip. Yes, this is an extreme. As long as you get an instant tendency to recover when you relax the controls you are safe. Just pay attention to rate of sink close to the ground allowing enough altitude to stop the sink rate. You will know if it is going to do an upset of some sort.

    Flying on the edge is safe as long as you know where the edge is.
    N1PA

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    cgoldy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Colin, Your ASI is telling you to look out the window and stop looking at the instruments. Do you have static ports on your pitot tube? Slipping sideways likely creates a sucking action on the static ports causing an increased speed reading. Sucking on static ports does the same thing as blowing in the pitot.
    Slip it as radically as you feel comfortable. As long as you get a reverse action from the controls when you move them you are not too slow. Unless you've done something to the plane which creates an abrupt quick stall or loss of control, you should be safe standing it on a wing tip with the nose pointing at the sky in a slip. Yes, this is an extreme. As long as you get an instant tendency to recover when you relax the controls you are safe. Just pay attention to rate of sink close to the ground allowing enough altitude to stop the sink rate. You will know if it is going to do an upset of some sort.

    Flying on the edge is safe as long as you know where the edge is.

    Thanks guys, you have given me confidence to go high and explore the slip envelope. Pete, I think you have nailed it again. The static is on the pitot.
    Javron O-375 wide body extended wing cub

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    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Better be ready for the spin entry from a slip! Its not the same as a skidding entry. Lowel level it usualy ends up with the plane in a smoking hole. Most people who use their planes on the job for low level work (especialy slow menuevering) avoid flying the airplane uncoordinated. I know this thread was about airspeed indications, but impressionable minds are reading this. Me personaly, i fly a no flap pa11 and i can count on one hand not using all five fingers how many times ive slipped it over the years. Just my two cents.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers
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    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Special Ed View Post
    Me personaly, i fly a no flap pa11 and i can count on one hand not using all five fingers how many times ive slipped it over the years. Just my two cents.
    Guess I must be a special kind of dumb then because I slip to nearly every landing. If you wanna get over an obstacle and on the ground in a no-flap cub you just have to master the slip. Like skywagon8a said, you can fly on the edge safely as long as you know where that edge is.

    Nothing wrong with slipping to landing IMO. I manage airspeed with pitch and just go in and out of a slight forward slip to manage approach angle. I could use throttle but I normally use a high approach so I'm already at idle so gotta bring some slip in to get out of the air and hit my spot. It's also a case of what may be safe in a cub may not be safe in another aircraft that has a more violent stall/spin characteristic. The cub is definitely more forgiving of getting slow and uncoordinated.

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    Anyone got popcorn?


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
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    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    It's getting kind of stale in here middle of the winter. Let's get a good old lively debate going!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Anyone got popcorn?


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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Get a qualified instructor and go for a ride in your plane as it's currently rigged. Find out what it does coordinated and with skids-slips. Convince yourself to pay attention.

    Gary
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    I echo the practice suggestions! But Iíve found if you maintain your pitch in the slip you typically donít change your airspeed. Most folks tend to lower the nose thinking theyíre going to stall, increasing airspeed and thus float. YMMV
    Last edited by Kid Durango; 12-04-2020 at 08:45 PM. Reason: Clarification
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Special Ed View Post
    Better be ready for the spin entry from a slip! Its not the same as a skidding entry. Lowel level it usualy ends up with the plane in a smoking hole. Most people who use their planes on the job for low level work (especialy slow menuevering) avoid flying the airplane uncoordinated. I know this thread was about airspeed indications, but impressionable minds are reading this. Me personaly, i fly a no flap pa11 and i can count on one hand not using all five fingers how many times ive slipped it over the years. Just my two cents.
    Nope

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Why Slips can be safer than Skids> https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...ip-skid-stall/

    Best fun maneuver in a Flight Review is a turning Slip power off from downwind to spot landing. Done right it's land on a dime and get 5 cents change.

    Gary

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    I'm like Crash Jr I slip to most landings. What will really get your attention when in a really hard slip is to have the window blow into the plane there is a Huge pucker factor for a couple of seconds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douten View Post
    I'm like Crash Jr I slip to most landings. What will really get your attention when in a really hard slip is to have the window blow into the plane there is a Huge pucker factor for a couple of seconds.
    Flew Cubs for so long with the door open (and had that happen a couple time) I only slip to the left out of habit now. Iím also in the camp of slipping on most landings with a Cub. Once my Clipper is together, that will also be slips to almost every landing as well.


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  23. #23
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Doors open or off I've never lost any windows in a Cub, J4, Champ or anything else. In a Stearman or most biplanes the only way your going to find the runway or anything else is to slip it till the wing almost almost drags.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Get a qualified instructor and go for a ride in your plane as it's currently rigged. Find out what it does coordinated and with skids-slips. Convince yourself to pay attention.

    Gary

    but be aware that the plane (cub) will behave a bit differently with a guy in the back.
    I took a long time GA pilot up once as px who thought we were nuts for flying so slow.
    At 4000í got slow and went thru a series of maneuvers, deep into spin territory, bragging all the while at how docile a cub was, he was slowly being converted when, wham! The wing came over so hard we pendulumed upside down for a moment.
    I have since never been able to duplicate that maneuver while flying alone.

    His wife wonít let us hang out together anymore.
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  25. #25
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Forget airspeed, the stick will tell you all you need to keep flying

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Best fun maneuver in a Flight Review is a turning Slip power off from downwind to spot landing. Done right it's land on a dime and get 5 cents change.

    Gary
    This right here.
    I spent a few days doing this a couple years ago and when you hit it perfect it was awesome. Constant slip in a constant radius from downwind to touchdown. I had to go back and look at my track logs just to smile about it.


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  27. #27
    courierguy's Avatar
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    I think I use slips, all types, just about every landing 3:42 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmTK-fdqe_M&t=394s Not real happy with the landing though!

    I'd give up my flaps before my slips. In fact, I have gotten all focused on a landing and then after sticking it, realized I had never used the flaps, only slipping, to get things lined up.
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    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I'd be curious if those in the camp of "slips are dangerous" still do side slips in a crosswind. It's still an uncoordinated maneuver folks!
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    I know more than one ATP pilot that has told me slips are dangerous (they crab and kick in crosswind) How many times have you read that you should ALWAYS keep the ball centered. Ya everyone is taught about a skip/skid turn in when you start but it was just on 5 min point combined with 20 other things then move on. If you don't fly small planes/taildraggers it is easy to miss/loose that bit of information. I think I spent two years asking pilots about the safety of slips and every time I got a different answer. After my Spin/Aerobatic training I had a better feel for it. Reading Ricks book I was able to better understand why(go figure training + reading = knowledge]. Understanding the difference between a slip and a skid is very important but I feel sometimes the shortcut answer to students is always keep the ball centered. DENNY

  30. #30
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Passenger comfort often dictates how the plane is flown. Get them queasy and it's sometimes followed by a safety meeting or whack on the head.

    Gary
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  31. #31
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Passenger comfort often dictates how the plane is flown. Get them queasy and it's sometimes followed by a safety meeting or whack on the head.

    Gary
    If the passenger doesn't ask " why are we flying sideways and why are you looking out the side window " then your not really using a slip to it's full advantage.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    I know more than one ATP pilot that has told me slips are dangerous (they crab and kick in crosswind)
    Depends on the airplane, but the crab and kick isn’t because slips are dangerous. With highly swept wings or engines under the wing you run the risk of dragging something on the runway in a slip. The Global Express fleet had this problem and really emphasized crab and kick, but not because a slip is dangerous. A lot of ATP’s probably haven’t done a slip since their primary training. I like slips......
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  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I should try this in a Super Cub with full flaps. In a J3 you can enter a full rudder slip, then slowly pull the stick full aft. It will not stall. I really didn't believe it until I tried it.

    I admire the caution of folks who go to 4000' agl for spin training. If you get into a spin in a Cub that costs you a thousand feet, you really need to study recovery techniques. That is, unless you want multiple turn spins.

    When I teach spins, the recovery starts right after the spin has developed - usuallly a half to 3/4 turn. The hardest part is getting a clean entry.
    with Keller flaps my BCSC Super Cub slips very poorly, running out of rudder and becoming an clumsy sideways flying manoeuvre if you want to keep it in a straight line.
    so I keep the flaps off or only at one notch when needing to slip into somewhere, hand dropping off throttle onto flap lever as I straighten out of the slip and then gently pull full flaps, takes some practice to keep the airspeed alive as once you pull the keller flaps at low energy (low airspeed) your speed bleeds off quickly.

    with slats and keller flaps the slip sadly becomes almost redundant as I can descend steeper with full flaps than I can in a slip, it would only be necessary to slip if I had flap failure.

    on my decathlon and Jungmann which had no flaps the slips were daily bread, especially in the Jungmann where forward vision was very poor.

    Bob, I always prefer to err on the VERY safe side when suggesting other pilots try something new. its not only about being able to recover from the spin...... they might be on the wrong tank and unport and engine stops just before entering that spin..... then they will be happy to have the extra thousand feet to figure it out...... or end up (highly unlikely but not impossible) in an inverted spin and struggle to figure out how to get out......foot slips past a rudder pedal in the excitement of trying a new manoeuvre and the new sneakers that you bought jams themselves wonderfully into the corner holding full rudder..... (this happened to a highly experience Extra 200 pilot I know, he ended up putting the plane down in a field so hard it took the gear off, with 7ft of fir tree in his right wing ), or any one of a million variety of anomalies that makes us humans make errors and crash.... doesn't take much effort to climb the extra 2000ft and try a few new things out.

  34. #34

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    Quite the thread. Lots of opinions/discussion about a pretty basic maneuver. Stall during a slip? Nose below the horizon, not going to happen. Big aggressive slip? Mostly unnecessary unless in a dead stick scenario and you’re high in close.
    Worried about passenger comfort? You can do a gentle slip all the way in and they’ll hardly know it. These are non aerobatic planes, an aggressive slip requires the plane to be forced into a maneuver it doesn’t like, “forced” is the word.
    Recovery from a slip, any slip, is dead simple- relax the pressure on all of the controls, in fact, let go of the controls for a moment. It is a contradiction when we’re told to always keep the ball centered. Then, out of the blue, we’re now going to send that ball way off to the side by cranking the stick and rudder in opposite directions. The actual maneuver isn’t so hard to demonstrate, it’s an “art” to explain what wasn’t “safe” is now “safe”.
    Thank goodness for good instructors out there!

  35. #35
    JimParker256's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    If the passenger doesn't ask "why are we flying sideways and why are you looking out the side window " then you're not really using a slip to its full advantage.

    Glenn
    When I was flying the 7ECA (no flaps), I made a point of explaining to any passengers (including other pilots) that I would be using a slip on final approach to scrub off any extra altitude. I would tell them how it would look and how it might feel to them, so it was never a surprise. I also announced it when I began doing the slip. No surprise, so no reaction. One guy did say "Wow, that really did feel weird like you said it would..."

    My doing this goes back to my very first experience with a slip, when an "old school" instructor decided I was too high on final, and just stomped on the rudder with no warning or explanation. Boy, was HE surprised when I immediately initiated a go-around due to "uncommanded control input"... (PS - I never flew with that guy again...)
    Jim Parker
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  36. #36
    JP's Avatar
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    Lordy, I got so addicted to doing slips in the J-3 and PA-11 that "normal" landings felt odd. No flaps, no problem!! Down we go!

    The strip where I flew for years wasn't real big and had interesting obstructions at both ends (trees and wires), so you'd be-bop along in a slow approach and just as you came up on the last obstacle slip the airplane in for a nice, short landing without honking on the brakes or barreling thorough the yard yelling "whoa".

    Now, the purpose of the exercise is defeated if you keep the stick too far forward and gain speed during the maneuver (that would be moi at the beginning of the season). A mentor once told me you've got to pull a long way back to get near the point of a problem and if you are paying the least amount of attention you will have plenty of warning that the AOA is a bit much. Glenn has it right--you can feel the sweet spot in the stick as to the "right" speed. Not to fast, not to slow. Just like High School.

    And, yes, playing with it a bit at altitude is a great way to get a good feel for it without scaring the good folk on the ground. Keep going back slowly until it does quit. Good fun.

    For good form we'd put the low wing into the wind if there was any crosswind. I like to slip left, so at the beginning of the season I go out and do some to the right until that becomes automatic again and I don't have to think "right-stick left-rudder" to do the opposite of my natural preference.

    Finally, when you have a pax on board definitely give them a bit of warning as to what you are about to do. Even pilot pax. Especially smoker pilots. I've had a couple who have never experienced the maneuver, only read about it in trade mags. Those ones are the funniest. Even with a head's up. The goal is, as always, to end the day with a Big Cub Grin.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special
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  37. #37
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    For good form we'd put the low wing into the wind if there was any crosswind. I like to slip left, so at the beginning of the season I go out and do some to the right until that becomes automatic again and I don't have to think "right-stick left-rudder" to do the opposite of my natural preference.
    Now this is a good point and question from me. So, I normally slip nose right almost no matter the wind although many people have admonished me to slip nose into the wind. Now on a decent and/or gusty crosswind this puts the high wing into the wind and in my mind increases the chance of getting a gust under the wing and now having a problem fighting the upwind wing back down on short final.

    Anybody have any thoughts on how to slip in a crosswind?

  38. #38
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Wing low into the wind if you want any respect.
    Most folks like to slip to the throttle side, it's the most comfortable so they get lazy and always slip left.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  39. #39
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Boy, Lazy AND no respect. Now I see why Glenn.

  40. #40
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I guess I'm OCD or something. I slip one way, then the other, so both legs get the same amount of exercise. But wing low into crosswind simply because it always seemed right. (Not really looking for respect)

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    By Tom in forum The Art and Science of Flying
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 06-14-2005, 02:25 PM

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