• If You Are Having Trouble Logging In with Your Old Username and Password, Please use this Forgot Your Password link to get re-established.
  • Hey! Be sure to login or register!

Fabric pros and cons.

Zook, Where is your shop located, is it attached to your house? IF so, fumes from any system will find their way inside. Whoever you live with will not be happy. In this case the Stewarts system is the best.

Also, since it appears you are a greenhorn at doing fabric work on airplanes, you will be starting from scratch with the learning curve. The techniques aren't much different between the many systems. The fabric itself is the same. The different processes is in the chemicals which go on the cloth.

I'm an old dope and Irish linen fabric person, done lot's of it. For my last project, primarily due to the proximity to my house but also because of the use of water rather than harsh chemicals, I used the Stewarts system. It was a bit different but not difficult. The only issue I had was in spraying the final color coats when the ambient temperature was not warm enough. I got some runs on the rudder which had to be sanded out and resprayed.

aktango's story of the toxins being a health issue is something everyone should pay close attention to. I knew a fellow who worked with all these various chemicals as an A&P mechanic for many years. He died at a young age from the after effects of those chemicals.
 
Oliver said:
If I were in your shoes, I’m assuming little or no experience with fabric covering, I’d go with Polyfiber system. Simple, time tested and hard to screw up.
if you don’t have experience with urethane, finish it in polytone, durable, easy to spray, not as toxic as two parts, and easy to repair.
Lots of discussion around Stewart’s, if I covered for a living I’d switch and learn Stewart’s system. But for every happy Stewart’s customer there’s someone with less than ideal results, and some horror stories. Very finicky and unforgiving process.

My 2c
Click to expand...

I would echo this. I've seen a lot of issues with Stewarts system that were always "the installers lack of experience" or inability to follow directions according to the Stewarts system people. If it's that complicated to get a coat of paint on that doesn't bubble up and peel off the fabric then I'd stay away as someone with less experience.

Polyfiber/Stits/Airtech are all pretty well ironed out systems and with a minimal investment in a fresh air system, painters suit, and a spray booth you should be able to get great results that will last a long time. Weight is all in how much primer and paint you decide to lay on.

*edit* Just some interesting numbers after talking to the guy from Airtech: Oratex is ~17 grams/square foot, Airtech 31-35g/sq.ft with 3x primer coats, and Airtech 23g/sq.ft with 2 cross coats of primer sanded between and 2x light coats of top coat. 650-700 square feet of fabric on a cub. Oratex does very much save 10-12lbs per my math
 
Last edited:
Oliver said:
But for every happy Stewart’s customer there’s someone with less than ideal results, and some horror stories. Very finicky and unforgiving process.

My 2c
Click to expand...

BS!!! I'd love to see where you come up with those numbers! It's amazing, the negative that comes from people with no experience with a product. There's literally thousands of users, most with no experience, that have done just fine with it. I always have to grin when I hear about the brother's uncle's sister's brother in law that did it just exactly to the instructions and it just wont work. If it's such a bad product, how come it works for anyone? I'm not here to argue about hearsay. I try not to comment on things I don't have experience with. Poly Fiber and all the other systems are great too...but there's nothing wrong with Stewarts, and it's not hard...I've only been teaching people how to use it since 1997. I still haven't had anyone come out of a class saying how impossible it is. I've seen issues/failures of every major system out there. It happens. It just gets really tiring when it gets exaggerated just to make it sound worse.
John
 
Did the Cub with polyfiber, then did the Stinson with Stewart’s. Worked fine, per instructions and was really nice not dealing with the fumes.
 
Hardtailjohn said:
BS!!! I'd love to see where you come up with those numbers! It's amazing, the negative that comes from people with no experience with a product. There's literally thousands of users, most with no experience, that have done just fine with it. I always have to grin when I hear about the brother's uncle's sister's brother in law that did it just exactly to the instructions and it just wont work. If it's such a bad product, how come it works for anyone? I'm not here to argue about hearsay. I try not to comment on things I don't have experience with. Poly Fiber and all the other systems are great too...but there's nothing wrong with Stewarts, and it's not hard...I've only been teaching people how to use it since 1997. I still haven't had anyone come out of a class saying how impossible it is. I've seen issues/failures of every major system out there. It happens. It just gets really tiring when it gets exaggerated just to make it sound worse.
John
Click to expand...

John,

My personal experience with Stewarts:

Two years ago my hangar partner purchased a cub, beautiful plane, rebuilt in 2014 by a very reputable builder, covered with Stewarts.
Only issue was a previously leaking fuel valve, fuel had run down inside of fabric and followed lower longeron back a couple feet. painted fabric around fuel affected area was stained and blistered.
A local Stewarts "expert" was contacted to assess repair. Said when he was done the repair would be unnoticeable. Well, it was noticable and ended up at a paint shop where they sanded out the patched area and shot it with color matched urethane and blended the edges.

Recently the plane was flipped over, during recovery process I taped some padding to the fuselage. When I later removed the tape, with it came all of the coatings right down to the fabric. My original plan was to preserve fuselage fabric, that went out the window for how does one repair areas of peeling paint??! When's the rest going to fail?

Lastly, while I was stripping fabric from wings, the resulting pile on the floor showed two distinct colors of orange, that which was removed from the top of the wing, and that from the bottom. Under normal circumstances one does not view the top and bottom of the wing simultaneously, so not a big ussue. but the color fade was alarming for a hangared cub.

Im not bashing on Stewarts, In fact I said id learn to use it if I were in the business of covering planes for a living. However, I dont cover planes for a living so my exposure to harsh chemicals is limited, more so, because I take appropriate protective measures.
The thought of eating a cover job because paint peeled - FOR WHATEVER REASON, is unacceptable to me.
Therefor I will stick with a process that I am familiar with. Time tested, durable, easy to source, easy to patch, forgiving and east to apply.

Again, my 2c

Doug
 
Last edited:
Fuselage
CC91CE38-6949-4831-AF8E-E79479A2C076.jpg20CFAC50-F659-4D5C-A269-6965FA1D4259.jpeg
faded paint
66E3E8D4-8AFC-43A3-9CD0-D70AC37C4475.jpg
 

Attachments

  • CC91CE38-6949-4831-AF8E-E79479A2C076.jpg
    CC91CE38-6949-4831-AF8E-E79479A2C076.jpg
    49 KB · Views: 839
  • 20CFAC50-F659-4D5C-A269-6965FA1D4259.jpeg
    20CFAC50-F659-4D5C-A269-6965FA1D4259.jpeg
    156.2 KB · Views: 270
  • 66E3E8D4-8AFC-43A3-9CD0-D70AC37C4475.jpg
    66E3E8D4-8AFC-43A3-9CD0-D70AC37C4475.jpg
    37 KB · Views: 139
tempdoug said:
so a new turn, is there a covering system thats forgiving of mistakes? or doing things wrong?
Click to expand...

Dope. Piper put it on with a MOP. (War time?)

dope is still my number one choice... stitts number 2

Doing superflite now only by customers choice, probably won’t use it again, unless customer begs

Things I will not use oratex, Stewart’s... oratex looks horrible and needs wax. Too many horror stories on Stewart’s, I went to the demo by Jason years ago...


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
mike mcs repair said:
Dope. Piper put it on with a MOP. (War time?)

dope is still my number one choice... stitts number 2

Doing superflite now only by customers choice, probably won’t use it again, unless customer begs

Things I will not use oratex, Stewart’s... oratex looks horrible and needs wax. Too many horror stories on Stewart’s, I went to the demo by Jason years ago...


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Click to expand...

But, would you use Oratex if appearance was not a deciding factor? That is the question, from a guy satisfied with a mat Poly-Tone finish. I'm more concerned with the view out the windshield, and for it's APPARENT advantages, I could care less how it looks as long as it gets the job done.
 
100% agree with dope being forgiving of bad technique. If I can shoot dope and make it look good, anyone can.

Web
 
So Stewart’s sounds like the nicest from a chemical point. What about the old dope system. So is there less fumes if it’s brushed on? Is this an option? Can all systems be sanded? Does the paint coat smell as bad as the rest of the layers ? I’m not looking for a show piece as it will spend most of its life in the bush. There is living space atta he’d to where we are working so we might have to wait tell we can work out side in the summer
 
courierguy said:
But, would you use Oratex if appearance was not a deciding factor? That is the question, from a guy satisfied with a mat Poly-Tone finish. I'm more concerned with the view out the windshield, and for it's APPARENT advantages, I could care less how it looks as long as it gets the job done.
Click to expand...

Oratex is a half assed product/finish not interested in turning out that kind of work from my shop. Non starter.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
Zook said:
So Stewart’s sounds like the nicest from a chemical point. What about the old dope system. So is there less fumes if it’s brushed on? Is this an option? Can all systems be sanded? Does the paint coat smell as bad as the rest of the layers ? I’m not looking for a show piece as it will spend most of its life in the bush. There is living space atta he’d to where we are working so we might have to wait tell we can work out side in the summer
Click to expand...

First guy I worked with said they did there Cubs with dope in the living room with the WOOD STOVE. I would highly recommend against that being flammable


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
Zook,
With the amount of time and money you’ll have invested in this, it would be in your best interest to do a good job covering. Both for resale, durability and pride.
Not black magic as some would have you believe. And quite gratifying when done under the right circumstances and with good results.
Regardless of system you choose, you’ll definitely need an enclosed area. depending on where you live, may need climate control. You WILL need to spray, your ability with a spray gun may determine what system you use.
I would recommend you locate someone who’s covering a plane and offer to apprentice. Might be some travel involved but it will be time and money well spent.
Stewarts occasionally has seminars, maybe worth looking to.

This discussion is turning into a Ford vs Chevy thing. I’ve obviously stepped on some toes expressing my opinion so I’ll leave it at that.



Doug
 
attachment.php
interesting photo on why that even happened like that? like something was wrapped around it in those 2 spots, taking the fabric cleaner off or adding something to it???
 
This discussion is turning into a Ford vs Chevy thing. I’ve obviously stepped on some toes expressing my opinion so I’ll leave it at that.

so many it’s time to talk about religion now. Lol
 
You asked for opinions and experiences so here goes. I have been a rookie with Polyfiber, Ceconite (Dope), and Stewart systems. They all have odors and require masks in my opinion. The Dope and Polyfiber layers seem to melt into each other. The Polyfiber poly tone paint cracked behind the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer after a few years but i used rejuvenator and applied a new topcoat and it looks fine now. I don’t think the Stewart system can be rejuvenated. Since the Stewart system uses water the room temperature and humidity has an influence on the drying characteristics. I had an interior shop but had some difficulty keeping the minimum temperature. I am told that too hot can also be a problem. If you follow the instructions and temps and times the system can work. If you don’t you can make more work for yourself. I had to sand off a layer of primer. The problems I had with the Stewarts System was that the Yellow topcoat was not very opaque so coverage was not very good at hiding variations in the primer color. It took a lot more topcoat than I had intended so make sure the primer layer is all the same. The other problem was that a small fuel leak from a quick drain caused the glue to let go with non ethanol auto fuel. The damaged area was confined to an inspection ring area so it wasn’t a major problem. Take your time, follow instructions exactly, protect yourself, and have fun. Big visible changes occur quite quickly so it is fun to see the progress being made.
 
Just seems like Stewart’s system has paint adhesion issues. Every problem I’ve heard of is either water pockets under the paint or paint peeling off fabric.

Oratex, I’ll have to disagree with Mike on. I know of quite a few planes with Oratex that look pretty good and the fabric holds up decently well. Maybe not as shiny long term as Imron or Airtech but 10-15lbs saved us a meaningful amount and it’s easy to patch/repair. Biggest downside IMO is it’s extreme cost.
 
Doesn't anyone use AirTech? I've done a couple cubs and Pawnee's with that stuff and no issues. Prime, paint, and done. Minimal to no sanding. My current cub was covered in 2000
and looks like new.....and you can clean it with MEK if you want.
 
Zook said:
So which system is easier to fix if I get a hole or tear In it.
Click to expand...
Dope, just clean the patch area, brush on some nitrate (sticks better than butyrate) dope, stick on the patch fabric, brush it smooth...done. Before you consider this remember..butyrate goes over nitrate but nitrate doesn't go over butyrate without making a mess. You can get away with it if the dope is old and very dried.

Dope can be brushed on without any spraying, but will require a lot of sanding for a spray like smooth finish. Some of the finest air show winners have been dope without any other top covering coats. Lot's of elbow grease.

Dope fumes will penetrate your living area. Stewarts fumes do also to a minimal extent. I can verify from living with someone who has a sensitive nose and will complain about smells at a pin drop, there were no objections when I did the Stewarts job.

I'm not recommending dope over any of the others, only describing some of it's features. Dope really isn't used much anymore. Whichever method you choose, you will do fine. Just be certain to read the instructions and follow it's procedures.

Another thing to think about is whether or not you will incur hazardous materiel shipping costs.
 
Dope burns very quickly when things go bad. Poly fiber is stupid easy to use, apply, get a good finish and a breeze to repair. I have used the stewarts glue and ecofil on a few patches as well and its pretty easy to work with but getting a good top coat seems to be a challenge for a lot of people. My IA had a lot of trouble with it till he went to larger air hoses and high flow fittings. After that he said it was a breeze to shoot and he shoots a lot of it!
Personally, I am sticking with the poly fiber system.
 
Oliver said:
This discussion is turning into a Ford vs Chevy thing. I’ve obviously stepped on some toes expressing my opinion so I’ll leave it at that.
Doug
Click to expand...


If you're referring to me, no, it's not a "Ford vs Chevy thing". The only thing I have an issue with is your statement "But for every happy Stewart’s customer there’s someone with less than ideal results," which is pure BS!!! That's saying that half the customers aren't happy....I'd argue that number with anyone!

I've seen peeling before, I've seen blisters, and yes, we already said some auto-gas will mess it up. I'm not arguing any of that. We've worked hard on getting those issues rectified, but can't make it bullet proof for everyone. I'm still trying though. I'm glad you said you would like to learn it! It's a different "mind set" for lack of a better term, and some just don't want to work within that parameter.

As far as the absolute most forgiving system...I totally agree....dope! If you mess up a dope finish, you're really working at it. That being said, it's flamable, and I've personally witnessed the aftermath of 2 wrecks that the ME said the occupant would have lived, had they not burned to death. I'm not gonna go there. Next would be Polyfiber and Polytone, totally fire proof, but it's not a really robust finish, and you're still dealing with LOTS of MEK.
Like was said before on this thread, those "melt" into each other, which is a characteristic of a solvent borne system. Waterborne depends on a mechanical "tooth" adhesion, and if you don't have that, it doesn't work all that well. That's one of the primary hurdles of anyone trying to learn to work with waterbornes. Remember Dodge, when they started to shift to a waterborne clearcoat? They had mess after mess, because they hadn't gotten the tooth adhesion correct... the booth techs were still applying it like a solvent borne and it wasn't holding up. A lot has been learned in the last 30+ years!
John
 
Unfortunately all it takes is one guy whos been using a certain system with good results to try Stewart’s and have a bad experience and he will never try it again and say how terrible it is. Bad news always travels faster


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
akavidflyer said:
Dope burns very quickly when things go bad. Poly fiber is stupid easy to use, apply, get a good finish and a breeze to repair. I have used the stewarts glue and ecofil on a few patches as well and its pretty easy to work with but getting a good top coat seems to be a challenge for a lot of people. My IA had a lot of trouble with it till he went to larger air hoses and high flow fittings. After that he said it was a breeze to shoot and he shoots a lot of it!
Personally, I am sticking with the poly fiber system.
Click to expand...

The gas in your plane burns better....


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
Oliver said:
John,

My personal experience with Stewarts:

Two years ago my hangar partner purchased a cub, beautiful plane, rebuilt in 2014 by a very reputable builder, covered with Stewarts.
Only issue was a previously leaking fuel valve, fuel had run down inside of fabric and followed lower longeron back a couple feet. painted fabric around fuel affected area was stained and blistered.
A local Stewarts "expert" was contacted to assess repair. Said when he was done the repair would be unnoticeable. Well, it was noticable and ended up at a paint shop where they sanded out the patched area and shot it with color matched urethane and blended the edges.

Recently the plane was flipped over, during recovery process I taped some padding to the fuselage. When I later removed the tape, with it came all of the coatings right down to the fabric. My original plan was to preserve fuselage fabric, that went out the window for how does one repair areas of peeling paint??! When's the rest going to fail?

Lastly, while I was stripping fabric from wings, the resulting pile on the floor showed two distinct colors of orange, that which was removed from the top of the wing, and that from the bottom. Under normal circumstances one does not view the top and bottom of the wing simultaneously, so not a big ussue. but the color fade was alarming for a hangared cub.

Im not bashing on Stewarts, In fact I said id learn to use it if I were in the business of covering planes for a living. However, I dont cover planes for a living so my exposure to harsh chemicals is limited, more so, because I take appropriate protective measures.
The thought of eating a cover job because paint peeled - FOR WHATEVER REASON, is unacceptable to me.
Therefor I will stick with a process that I am familiar with. Time tested, durable, easy to source, easy to patch, forgiving and east to apply.

Again, my 2c

Doug
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I have had every issue you posted about with most every system out there. No dog in this fight but though it was worth noting.
 
Ive done dope, I’ve done Poly Fiber, I’ve done repairs with Stewart’s, I’ve done Airtech. For my airplane, it will be dope. Easy to apply, easy to repair. When done right, it is about as light as you can go with fabric.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
John,
My remarks about Stewart’s covering system were inappropriate and irresponsible.
Thank you for your contribution to creating a more user friendly product.
Im an ol dog new trick guy and, by nature, suspicious of anything new. Especially something that involves mixing water with paint ;-)
Re peeling paint issues; I’ve consulted some happy Stewart’s folks whom I have a lot of respect for. Consensus is, a step was overlooked or mishandled during paint process. My concern; one misstep can ruin an entire covering job.
That point should be hammered home to anyone who chooses this rout.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Doug
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

F
Certfied vs Expermetal
Replies
8
Views
4K
Bill Rusk
Bill Rusk
F
Storing Cub Outdoors
2
Replies
33
Views
7K
fishingh
F
McAlpine
Float Fittings
Replies
8
Views
5K
NimpoCub
NimpoCub
S
BBI PA-18-95 kit info
Replies
3
Views
1K
Steve Pierce
Steve Pierce
D
Black airplane?
2
Replies
47
Views
8K
dwm
D
Back
Top