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Thread: Alternatives to Kydex- Royalite R52 and Boltaron 4330?

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    KJC's Avatar
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    Alternatives to Kydex- Royalite R52 and Boltaron 4330?

    My supplier has discontinued stocking Kydex. Iím looking for an alternative acrylic thermoplastic that has similar properties and workability. The two that seem most similar are Royalite R52 and Boltaron 4330. I have a sample of Royalite R52 in .060 and itís much stiffer than Kydex .060. I liked it. Comes in several colors including gray and black. Drawback was it denser and heavier. .040 would be perfect and itís in stock but they refuse to sell it in less than 20 sheets.

    Iím trying to find out more about Boltaron 4330 other than on the internet search.

    They both look very similar (possibly better?) than Kydex. Does anyone have any experience with these?
    PA-12 N418BS

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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJC View Post
    My supplier has discontinued stocking Kydex. I’m looking for an alternative acrylic thermoplastic that has similar properties and workability. The two that seem most similar are Royalite R52 and Boltaron 4330. I have a sample of Royalite R52 in .060 and it’s much stiffer than Kydex .060. I liked it. Comes in several colors including gray and black. Drawback was it denser and heavier. .040 would be perfect and it’s in stock but they refuse to sell it in less than 20 sheets.

    I’m trying to find out more about Boltaron 4330 other than on the internet search.

    They both look very similar (possibly better?) than Kydex. Does anyone have any experience with these?
    What are you working on? I need to order some KyDex for a project also. I have another V-0 material that I worked with recently (have to find the name).

    Tim

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    1966 fresh from the jig at Javeron for repair and mods. Here’s what it’s getting:

    x brace
    reverse dogleg
    large Atlee ext baggage
    3rd seat/#180 cargo
    belts to floor
    float fittings
    aft metal belly pan
    L-21 glass
    Airmotive large baggage door and upper baggage door
    folding front seat
    headerless fuel system
    lots of tabs including interior, water rudder pulleys and Airglass pod
    lift handles both sides
    boxed tail
    interior elt bracket
    Carbon Concepts floorboards, toolbox and rear seat
    etc.,etc,etc.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by KJC; 11-16-2020 at 02:46 PM.
    PA-12 N418BS
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Alternatives to Kydex- Royalite R52 and Boltaron 4330?

    Kydex (some versions) is approved. Is that other stuff able to pass the tests?

    Last I ordered out Washington Liard plastics. Was only $40 to ship 3 sheets rolled up to Alaska.

    And it cost only 1/3 of local $$$


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  5. #5
    KJC's Avatar
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    Like Kydex T, both the Royalite and Boltaron both meet the FAR25(?) burn tests per their advertising and specs. Do you need that on a CAR 3 airplane? Obviously still nice to have. I’m leaning towards Boltaron in either gray or carbon fiber pattern in .040.

    Mike, just a side note, I finished my last airplane a PA-12 shortly after you finished the -12 you where working on. Thank you for posting the pics of that project. It really helped a lot. I also discovered how much fun and easy Kydex is.

    https://www.boltaron.com/thermoforming/aircraftrated/
    Last edited by KJC; 11-16-2020 at 03:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJC View Post
    Like Kydex T, both the Royalite and Boltaron both meet the FAR25(?) burn tests per their advertising and specs. Do you need that on a CAR 3 airplane?
    I need that because I don't want to burn and I want to keep breathing.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  8. #8
    KJC's Avatar
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    Agreed. Just thinking of the lawyer aspect with respect to CAR 3 airplanes.
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    But the original interior in like a pacer was dope. Flammable


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    Quote Originally Posted by KJC View Post
    1966 fresh from the jig at Javeron for repair and mods. Here’s what it’s getting:

    x brace
    reverse dogleg
    large Atlee ext baggage
    3rd seat/#180 cargo
    belts to floor
    float fittings
    aft metal belly pan
    L-21 glass
    Airmotive large baggage door and upper baggage door
    folding front seat
    headerless fuel system
    lots of tabs including interior, water rudder pulleys and Airglass pod
    lift handles both sides
    boxed tail
    interior elt bracket
    Carbon Concepts floorboards, toolbox and rear seat
    etc.,etc,etc.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    looks Uber heavy

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    KJC's Avatar
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    So are 35” Bushwheels and a Borer Prop. Doesn’t stop anybody. Most of the mods here are pretty standard. Lose the header tanks and wood floorboards and I bet I’m still ahead. Supposedly the Carbon Concept floorboards save #9 lbs alone over wood.
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astjp2 View Post
    looks Uber heavy
    If it was painted white you wouldn't think so.
    N1PA
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    I had good luck with Curbell Plastics for Kydex T, I used .040 Black shipped to the door.
    Thanks Airguide thanked for this post

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    Quote Originally Posted by KJC View Post
    So are 35” Bushwheels and a Borer Prop. Doesn’t stop anybody. Most of the mods here are pretty standard. Lose the header tanks and wood floorboards and I bet I’m still ahead. Supposedly the Carbon Concept floorboards save #9 lbs alone over wood.
    What did the fuselage end up weighing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KJC View Post
    Agreed. Just thinking of the lawyer aspect with respect to CAR 3 airplanes.
    If you have enough flame and heat to cause problems with standard Kydex you had better be out of the plane. What the FAA requires for material certs in a Boeing doesn't make much sense for a Cub.

    From CAR3
    ß 3.388 Fire precautionsó(a) Cabin interiors. Only materials which are flash- resistant shall be used. In compartments where smoking is to be permitted, the materials of the cabin lining, floors, upholstery, and furnishings shall be flame-resistant. Such compartments shall be equipped with an adequate number of self- contained ash trays. All other compartments shall be placarded against smoking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    If you have enough flame and heat to cause problems with standard Kydex you had better be out of the plane. What the FAA requires for material certs in a Boeing doesn't make much sense for a Cub.

    From CAR3
    That's a bit out of date, I'm sure the FAA has the non-smoking version just about to publish
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  17. #17
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    It is nice to know that all of these acrylics have some fire resistant features. If it meets some FAR requirement then it should be better than nothing. I think we are to the point that all three of these have been used in commercial airliners and light aircraft for years without reservation. Obviously if it’s on fire, you should be leaving ASAP.

    Regarding fuselage weight, I have no idea.
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  18. #18

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    My 180 tonight, and why burn certificates don't matter much to me.

    Propane and fuel hauling season is coming!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by stewartb; 11-17-2020 at 10:03 PM.

  19. #19
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    Yep. Me too. Propane cylinders and gas for generators. Not much is going to save a guy from a bad crash with all the stuff for making a cabin/fish house work. Still risks I’m willing to take to live a life well lived. ��.

    Just curious, what did you use for interior panels in the Wildcat. Carbon Fiber?
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    Yes, they were provided with the kit. I'm not sure I like it better than Kydex but they fit so we used them. I'd much rather work with Kydex. CF cuttings and dust make my skin crawl.

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    I’m curious if they are CF or Boltaron 4330 in black carbon fiber appearance. I’ll find a https://www.boltaron.com/textures/
    PA-12 N418BS

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    My panels? There's no question, they're carbon fiber. And the floor boards are also carbon but with a foam core. If I was putting a project together? I'd find an easier to work with alternative like those you're looking at.
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    Last edited by stewartb; 11-18-2020 at 02:46 PM.
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Alternatives to Kydex- Royalite R52 and Boltaron 4330?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    My panels? There's no question, they're carbon fiber. And the floor boards are also carbon but with a foam core. If I was putting a project together? I'd find an easier to work with alternative like those you're looking at.
    But the carbon fiber was right at half the weight of kydex I forget the thickness.040 or .062Ē. I had that written down. I think thereís a picture of that note in the kydex thread


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    KJC's Avatar
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    Did those floors come from Carbon Concepts or were the supplied with the kit? Also, I’m wondering what the weight saving between painted/pc aluminum vs Kydex vs carbon is. I’ll bet the aluminum .020 with all that black spay on crap on the back and Kydex are close to the same. Carbon is obviously lighter but is it worth it to save 2 maybe 3 lbs?

    The supplier in MSP just quoted $78 a sheet for .047 Boltaron in black.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJC View Post
    Did those floors come from Carbon Concepts or were the supplied with the kit? Also, I’m wondering what the weight saving between painted/pc aluminum vs Kydex vs carbon is. I’ll bet the aluminum .020 with all that black spay on crap on the back and Kydex are close to the same. Carbon is obviously lighter but is it worth it to save 2 maybe 3 lbs?

    The supplier in MSP just quoted $78 a sheet for .047 Boltaron in black.
    I just had a customer pay $3,900 to save 10 lbs on his cub, so for some every oz counts...

  26. #26
    KJC's Avatar
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    What got changed?
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    Aluminum Lift struts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KJC View Post
    Did those floors come from Carbon Concepts or were the supplied with the kit? Also, I’m wondering what the weight saving between painted/pc aluminum vs Kydex vs carbon is. I’ll bet the aluminum .020 with all that black spay on crap on the back and Kydex are close to the same. Carbon is obviously lighter but is it worth it to save 2 maybe 3 lbs?

    The supplier in MSP just quoted $78 a sheet for .047 Boltaron in black.
    040 Kydex and 020 aluminum weigh the same (less paint). Carbon is definitely lighter but is harder to work with. My floors came from Backcountry. They are not from Carbon Concepts. Randy's shop is about 5 minutes from my house. He made me a new nose bowl last winter. His quality is definitely better than in the early years and he seems to have a good thing going. I saw a Cub interior panel set last time I was there. I have no knowledge of how well it fits.

    My side panels have a 90* turnout at the bottom to overlap the floorboards. I like that detail. I'd think you could do it with Kydex-type materials. Something to consider. I think it'd be better if the floors had the 90* turn but that would be very difficult to fit.
    Last edited by stewartb; 11-18-2020 at 04:41 PM.

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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	0BADB144-4321-4596-B16E-EF63318A1FAE.jpeg 
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ID:	52434Kind of like this? Next time I’m going to put the 90 turn under the floorboard or butted up to the edge of the floor.
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    I ordered my Kydex from Professional Plastics in Portland, OR. They shipped it to my house for a very reasonable fee. Some came out of Denver and some Seattle.
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    Somewhat related:
    Im really happy with 1/8Ē alum diamond plate for flooring.
    Textured powder coat for non skid, really durable. Turned up sides provide something to attach side panels to.
    I have not done a weight comparison with plywood but in this case Iíd take the penalty.
    Also worth noting, Kydex interior panels can practically be folded in half for install or removal without ill effect.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  32. #32
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJC View Post
    Next time I’m going to put the 90 turn under the floorboard
    How would you remove the side panels for maintenance?

    Web
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Alternatives to Kydex- Royalite R52 and Boltaron 4330?

    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    How would you remove the side panels for maintenance?

    Web
    They would be screwed to the lip on floor board

    Think they meant lip on floor not under


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  34. #34
    KJC's Avatar
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    Yes, lip on the floor. I’m not sure under will work. It would just look better without the 90* showing on top. Although, it keeps the junk and dirt from falling into the crack and it easy to remove. The Kydex panel’s are very easy to remove because they’re very flexible.

    I really like the diamond plate both in looks and durability. Probably still lighter than the original plywood. Dakota sells a front and rear pre-rotered for about $250. Carbon Concepts is $1200 for the floors and another approximately $500 for the tool box and seat back. Big bucks for 9 lbs over wood. Might have to think more on this......

    I have samples of Boltaron coming.
    PA-12 N418BS

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    Nephew's using Oratex for the interior. No painting. Probably lighter than carbon fiber.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJC View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	0BADB144-4321-4596-B16E-EF63318A1FAE.jpeg 
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ID:	52434Kind of like this? Next time I’m going to put the 90 turn under the floorboard or butted up to the edge of the floor.


    You would have to pull the brakes and entire floor to get the side panels out. With the 90 on top of the floorboard the dirt and water does not go down the crack.
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  37. #37

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    My 90* flange is on the side panels. It works fine for keeping dirt above the floor but the flange covers the perimeter screws in the floor boards and that makes removing the floor a little tricky. A minor inconvenience for a worthwhile improvement.
    Last edited by stewartb; Yesterday at 02:23 PM.

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