Stuck in the middle of nowhere, alone...

DENNY said:

I stand corrected!! That would be the best of both worlds. Any ideal of service pricing?
DENNY

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Like all sat/trackers, the service package depends on your use needs, lots of options. We switched our survey crews to them as we can do flight following, sms or voice between workers or to anywhere worldwide with one unit. Think a basic emergency package is in ballpark of spidertracks/inReach-Garmin/Spot. Device cost little more than $1k


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It looks like around $1500 for the phone and $80/mo for service.

mike mcs repair said:

One thing I don’t see mentioned is alway let someone know where you might be going and when you plan to return. Many still missing planes full of people up here. One used to park at the hanger. Said they were going to Seward? But instead flight tracked them to Denali 4 people still missing in just that one.


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Good point and something I've tried to do. Reminds me of Steve Fossett in California. Lots of search resources turned up nothing.

Scooter7779h said:

Like all sat/trackers, the service package depends on your use needs, lots of options. We switched our survey crews to them as we can do flight following, sms or voice between workers or to anywhere worldwide with one unit. Think a basic emergency package is in ballpark of spidertracks/inReach-Garmin/Spot. Device cost little more than $1k


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I wonder what the markets gonna look like in 2 years, as far as all those starlink satellites going up..... no mobil gear announced/released yet, but even the small dish will only be $500 and $100 a month.....

Re: remote weather? I use the sat phone to call flight service and ask them to look at a camera view and tell me what they see. Or I can call my wife, daughter, or a number of friends for the same thing. Inreach weather isn't very useful. FIS-B weather requires me to be flying before I get reception. I need the info before making that decision.

As said above, anything you need for sure strap it to your self. If the wreck burns or sinks you have what is hooked to you.

mike mcs repair said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybQDQUCb508

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Well that's something. The "lower expectation" beta beats my current connection by a factor of 10 at least.

RVBottomly said:

Good point and something I've tried to do. Reminds me of Steve Fossett in California. Lots of search resources turned up nothing.

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They found Fossett about a year later, and around five other 'missing' aircraft during the search. As pointed out above, still lots of aircraft out there waiting to be found.

Web

First, I would suggest that if you wouldn't be comfortable going into the backcountry alone, going with others may be better, but the fact is, it's pretty easy to get separated when flying around. Particularly if you don't have a very firm plan and allow the LEAST experienced govern most ops.

Food will help you stay comfortable, but it's not necessary in an aviation survival situation. Read Helen Klaben's "Hey I'm Alive!" if you don't buy that. 49 days in winter in northern Yukon/BC. No food.

Ray Tremblay used to say "Survival gear is the stuff you have in your pockets when you leave the airplane. The stuff in the baggage compartment is camping gear, NOT survival gear.". So, think about what you carry on your person. It really doesn't take much to survive, IF you know what you're doing.

As to communications, my airplane is equipped with a 406 ELT, connected to a Garmin Aera GPS. That's the dire emergency version of comms. I use a Garmin In Reach for non emergency comms. Satellite phones are truly wonderful devices, and make communications SO much simpler and more effective. The down side: They are expensive. Not so much to purchase, but the subscription prices are a bit spendy.

That said, if you're taking a trip, you can rent a satellite phone from a number of vendors.

Tools: I have never claimed to be a mechanic. So, I'm not planning a major overhaul on my engine while stranded in the back woods of Montana. Not even close. Thus, my tool kit is pretty basic: A couple of screwdrivers, both phillips and straight blade, a small basic socket set, a spark plug socket and wrench, plus a couple of spare spark plugs....padded to avoid damage. A bit of safety wire, a small assortment of screws/washers/bolts/nuts, etc. may come in handy, but my collection is pretty small. I carry a couple of files, one fairly coarse, one fairly fine for propeller dressing.

And, that's about it for tools. Much more than that is going to be a job for someone with skills I don't possess.

In much of the "back country" in the US and Canada there are bears of one flavor or another. Black bear populations are widespread in North America, and those rascals can be pesky. In the Rocky Mountains and Alaska we have both black bears and brown/grizzly bears. There is a lot of literature out there some good some very bad on the subject of bears. I suggest getting a copy of "Bear Attacks-Their Causes and Avoidance", by Stephen Hererro. This is the definitive work on this subject, and Steve is the world's expert on the topic.

So, plan on bringing pepper spray with you, if you're going to camp in bear country. By the way, you DO NOT want one of those cans of stuff to discharge in your airplane. I have a small plastic case that my bear spray lives in while in the plane. When I worked in AK, my bear spray rode in a secure holster strapped to a wing strut or gear leg, OUTSIDE the cabin.
And, make a plan how you will safely cook and store food while in the boonies. You really don't want a bear of any flavor rummaging around your camp at 2:00 AM....

Who do you call if you're out in the woods and broke down? Idaho Aviation Association has a listing called "Stuck and Stay" on their web site. That list contains phone numbers to call in case of problems, including some places to stay if hotel isn't available. To me, arguably the most utility of this type list is who you can call locally to ask for assistance. Presumably, the people on this list will know who the local mechanics are, and whether they can get to where you're at.

You have to be an Idaho Aviation Association member to access that list. And, of course you need computer access to read the list, so best to print off or make notes for the area you're flying into, and carry that along.

I like that concept enough that Montana Pilots Association is going to work on developing a similar list, at least containing names and numbers of those who might be able to provide assistance in our part of the world. If and when we get that ready for use, it also will require membership in MPA to access.

I'm not sure the Utah Backcountry Pilots web site has something different, but they do have a LOT of really good information on their website.

I encourage you to join these organizations before operating in this part of the world.

But, frankly, if you're not going to be comfortable camping in the back country alone, you may want to stick to more "civilized" regions of the world.

Actually, some of the most memorable camp outs I've experienced, I was the only human for many miles....the quiet is spectacular...

Sorry for the ramble,

MTV

mike mcs repair said:

One thing I don’t see mentioned is alway let someone know where you might be going and when you plan to return. Many still missing planes full of people up here. One used to park at the hanger. Said they were going to Seward? But instead flight tracked them to Denali 4 people still missing in just that one.


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Here is an article about a good friend. He went exploring outside of the box he told his wife he would be in. It worked out, but lots of people spend lots of $ searching: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2004/nov/28/missing-pilot-found-alive/

I don't want to be a downer, but if you want to work off airports, you will bend or break something. I don't have many folks down at home to help me, but when I am in Anchorage area I can network into a large group of helpers... that is comforting.

As far as videos and performance, we work the cub out of strips that are down to 500' long at 3,500 mil. It sounds like a long strip, but when you are heavy and bouncing trying to get her to stop with a quartering tail wind, (many one way strips), 1,000' would be nice. Valdez is incredible, but again, very controlled conditions on a hard surface. Don't let anyone talk you into something because they know other's can do it.

Just so you know, I have folks tell me often how their last pilot would carry that load out of that lake or strip. I always tell the people that the other guy is just a better pilot with better equipment, and they are welcome to fly go elsewhere. As you learn, be precise in your spot to lift off and touch down. That is 70% of off airport. The other 70% is positive control of the plane.

One thing I try to do on trips is just stop and make friends along the way. Just because you have a lodge/roadhouse/hot dog stand on a strip does not mean it is not a great camping flying destination. Find areas you want to explore off field and first visit local strips for local pilots and knowledge. Weather is going to interrupt a lot of your flying. Having a safe tied/hanger in the area to hide in is great!!
DENNY

I see a lot of mention about the backcountry. I think its important to understand that you must fly in the mountains to get to the backcountry. Well, in Idaho at least. Best get some mountain training because if you can't safely fly the mountains, nothing else matters.

I think that is a VERY GOOD POINT. Learn about mountain flying it will do you good; winds aloft, weather, mountain waves, DA, .........

I can land most places, but I have had the cr_p scared out of me with mountain turbulence.

Over the years I’ve seen more than a few pilots in crashes that made it out the plane with the proverbial “nothing but what they were wearing”. After decades of dragging my feet I did a ton of research on this forum about putting together a survival vest. I saw examples of everything but the kitchen sink vests that were bulging like a bodybuilder on steroids to a simple bare minimum vest. I felt I got the best advice from the professional backcountry pilots that wear the things day in and out. (i.e. USF&W, State/NPS, airtaxi pilots and some guides). Get one that is COMFORTABLE to wear in and out of the cockpit. Small Sat Phone and ONLY the essential items needed to spend the night and those items vary with the season. Leave a pocket open for gloves/hat or anything else if you do many stops and want to keep the vest on while exploring. INVENTORY items in vest several times a year so everything is fresh and not stale. If it’s a inflatable vest test it every year.

That being said my “Kitchen Sink” survival kit complete with tent and wiggys bag is my ballast in the extended baggage. I’ve spent a unexpected night(s) in the middle of nowhere. Being comfortable on an unexpected stay pays off in spades by helping you keep a good attitude. If I only make it out with the survival vest on, I won’t have the Taj Mahal but I’ll be fine.

Several folks on this site have shared a few unpleasant overnight stories that get one thinking about survival strategies and MTV has some really good advice on the survival equipment.

My take on the idea that survival gear is what's on you is that you should dress like you'll be walking home. That's more important than anything you can stuff into a vest.

stewartb said:

My take on the idea that survival gear is what's on you is that you should dress like you'll be walking home. That's more important than anything you can stuff into a vest.

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My take is the vest is part of the clothing you will be walking home in. Guess I shoulda mentioned wearing proper coat/shirt/pants/boots/underwear/hat/etc. besides the vest. When is the last time someone has walked out from a truly remote crash. Most of the stories I hear and read people stay with the plane so it’s easier to be found. But then gain if your tough you can text on your Inreach “ Hey honey I just crashed at Kulukuk and I’m gonna start walking to Togiak. They can pick me up along the way.” Personally I’ll stay with plane till picked up, unless I wreck at Kincaid Park....then a walk to Spenard would be reasonable. I take this attitude after being in a remote incident that involved activating an ELT, helicopter ride, long long wait and a bruised ego.
Whatever floats your boat.

I've done off shore polar bear research for over 30 years. I was flying a U206G on skis . Had 8hrs fuel plus 90 Gal for the rubber wing. Stuck out on the ice only once. Most all times the weather is clear once you are 15 miles from shore. If we had a mile from wherever we were staying we were going. The only times [very few] that i turned back was icing. the rubber wing folks would give me an hour to get bears lined up for capture. Not once did they have to wait on me. usually I had 6 or more lined up. On this occasion we had captured a lot of bears and left my fuel, pumps and hose on a good piece of ice as they wanted me to go another 180 miles north to pick up a dropped collar. We were working on the west side of a large lead that probably went all the way to greenland.I left a radio beacon with the fuel so we both could find it. I flew out picked up the collar and headed back to pick up the empty drums, hoses etc. I had moved 6 mile to the west.I took off for home for the night. climbed up to talk to the Rubber. They had just entered the ---- weather. I had just about got there when the rapper called and said they had talked to our contact at base and it wa 0/0. I told them I was headed to the sport on the east side where we had caught a numbest of bears. I could land and taxi around on wheels.I landed, covered the plane. Took my shovel and tree person tent to a large drift behind a pressure ridge. I t was a nice evening as it was calm.They asked me what I was doing and I said digging a place for my tent. They asked why as we could put one up anywhere. I said that this drift didn't form here by accident. The principal scientist that was in charge had taken all the heavy survival gear out at the beginning of the project so they could haul more fuel. summer bag, Walmart cheep dome tent. All survival food except a lark bottle that had large tablets that each had 2200 cal. I'm always bringing a stove and good food that you would like to eat. Soup, Coco, candy bars, peanuts etc. As they were taking turns digging a spot for their tent I was harvesting fresh water from multi year ice and making soup for every one. I had 3 wiggy bags . Antarctic with over bags. Long story short, I was up and climbed up to look where we were going . Clear underneath so I packed up and was about ready to so when people who were cold and wet asked what I was doing , I said I'm headed in to grab a great breakfast and listen to some good music or watch a movie. They showed up an hour latter to bright sunshine. I ask what we were going to do for the day and mr. incharge said he was getting on th phone and getting good gear. No flying today. NTSB always shows up with sunshine and no wind."
Sandy

I doubt that there are many on this forum that fly in a more-remote part of the world than I do. I certainly envy those who have pilot friends they can fly with and/or come to your rescue if (when) your luck runs out. No roads to the outside world here, nearest private or commercial airplane almost 400-miles away and no local pilots to trade insults with. Floats and skis rule. Ah, the joys of living in the Canadian arctic!

Good clothing, suitable for the season is a must. Bug dope in the summer (or they can demoralize you and cause bad decision-making leading. possibly. to death). I need all the usual camping gear so I can remain reasonably comfortable until rescue arrives. There's no such thing as "walking out" around here.

I sold my sat 'phone and bought an InReach. The 'phone was just costing too much, though I won't deny that it has some significant value.

I always file a flight plan or a flight itinerary. We used to be within an ADIZ and were compelled to file a flight plan, but it could only be closed with a sat 'phone. Now that the ADIZ boundary has been moved farther north we file an itinerary that can be "closed" with a text or e-mail from the InReach.

Keep the airplane well-maintained. My modified PA-12 is amateur-built (experimental) so I do my own maintenance but I'm always on the lookout for an itinerant AME who can look things over from time-to-time.

I always carry plenty of survival gear and food, tools, and the best clothing money can buy.

Water not required here!

TVATTIVAK71 and Stewart are both right. Proper clothing is indeed essential, but not so you can hike out of wherever you wind up, but so you'll survive the elements while awaiting assistance.

I continue to be astounded here in the mountain west to see an airplane land and the pilot and often passengers climb out dressed as if for a day on the beach. I've had one actual catastrophic engine failure and two control failures which required an immediate landing. None of those happened right next to a Super 8.

The outfit I worked for had a policy that all occupants of aircraft had to be dressed appropriately to SURVIVE in the country over which the flight was to traverse. Think about that when you dress.....and think about what was discussed above: You may not have access to the "stuff" in the baggage compartment.

Friends from the midwest called me this summer, in July and asked about flying into Schafer Meadows, a remote airstrip in the Great Bear Wilderness of NW Montana. I told them to bring warm clothes and at least -10 rated, and preferably -20 rated sleeping bags. That was followed by several "What????"s from them. I explained to them that I was there just a couple weeks before and the temp in the morning was 33 F. So, if they wanted to be comfortable.....

So, suppose someone has an engine failure in that country (and a LOT of other country we refer to loosely as "the backcountry") and they manage to park the airplane with only minor injuries to the persons on board, but right after the thing skidded to a stop, it caught fire (by the way something similar happened just this summer in the Idaho backcountry). No access to baggage compartment and everyone on board is wearing shorts, tennis shoes (gotta FEEL those rudder pedals, after all) and SuperCub.org T-Shirts. No way to communicate their distress, no "survival gear", and really poorly dressed for the country. Even if they can get a fire going, they're going to have some REALLY miserable nights, assuming they survive.

I've spent several nights in places I didn't exactly choose, mostly due to weather, but in one case due to a "stupid pilot moment, I spent the night out at -45 F. That night, I made a one person shelter, crawled into my -20 rated sleeping bag and slept like a baby, though I was a little too warm. I had access to all sorts of survival gear, but I could have done just fine that night with just the clothes I wore and the stuff in my vest.

So, understand, as others have so eloquently noted above, that a.) You need to go to the backcountry prepared to survive, whether you're by yourself or with a gaggle of pilots. and, b) The odds aren't high, but you MAY wind up spending the night somewhere other than where you planned to. And, don't believe for a moment that those buddies in their airplanes are going to crash alongside your wreck just to share their survival gear......

MTV

mvivion said:

TVATTIVAK71 and Stewart are both right. Proper clothing is indeed essential, but not so you can hike out of wherever you wind up, but so you'll survive the elements while awaiting assistance.

I continue to be astounded here in the mountain west to see an airplane land and the pilot and often passengers climb out dressed as if for a day on the beach. I've had one actual catastrophic engine failure and two control failures which required an immediate landing. None of those happened right next to a Super 8.

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I'm sort of the local harpy on this, but at least I'm not the only one. I routinely see folks getting into their Mooneys or C 182s for a quick trip to Boise in winter, wearing sneakers and slacks, etc. Maybe it's because I grew up before cell phones and in Montana, but even on a short road trip we would dress for the weather.

The mind-set applies not just to bush flying. Routine travel, too. I once spent two blizzard nights on the side of the road on US 2 near Glacier Park. It wasn't a big deal for me, but my mom sure was worried. But nobody could go looking for me because nobody could get there anyway from the snow-slides.

I like the inReach for the peace of mind it gives my wife. I can let her know if I'm delayed, and the tracking feature lets her check while I'm flying. It's also a "last resort" if I wind up somewhere I don't want to be.

If that makes me "unprepared" then I'll take the hit... To me, it's just another survival tool. And, yeah, I've done the survival training in the Army - both desert and "cold weather" ones.

You're missing his point. If you are prepared and relatively self sufficient, you'll only need to call search and rescue when there is an unavoidable, life endangering, situation. If you bend an airplane or have a mechanical failure (and are prepared for this) spending a night or two is NOT life endangering. You can contact a friend and have parts flown in or yourself flown out. Only call the SAR guys to save lives. Every year these aircraft and their crews take casualties responding to calls. NEVER want be the one that called them, and they get hurt, just because you are lonely or uncomfortable.

Web

Case in point, a few years back wife and I were riding down the Big Su to the cabin and came across two sleds riding double who were obviously not sure of where they were. We stopped and asked. They were looking for the Iditarod trail because they had left two machines there the day before, near a "private subdivision" sign. Well, that would be Yensus Lakes, so I pointed them to the trail and told them they were only a few miles away. I asked why they left the machines. They told me the day before they were riding, it was getting dark, and they were down to 1/4 fuel, so they sent a 9-1-1 on their SPOT and had a Trooper helicopter pick them up. They could have easily made the Deshka Landing, but these weren't experienced guys and they weren't sure where they were. I could have walked to their truck in 3 hours, but I'd have gotten picked up by one of probably fifty passing riders along the way. Crazy. And not an unique story.

stewartb said:

Case in point, a few years back wife and I were riding down the Big Su to the cabin and came across two sleds riding double who were obviously not sure of where they were. We stopped and asked. They were looking for the Iditarod trail because they had left two machines there the day before, near a "private subdivision" sign. Well, that would be Yensus Lakes, so I pointed them to the trail and told them they were only a few miles away. I asked why they left the machines. They told me the day before they were riding, it was getting dark, and they were down to 1/4 fuel, so they sent a 9-1-1 on their SPOT and had a Trooper helicopter pick them up. They could have easily made the Deshka Landing, but these weren't experienced guys and they weren't sure where they were. I could have walked to their truck in 3 hours, but I'd have gotten picked up by one of probably fifty passing riders along the way. Crazy. And not an unique story.

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You suppose that will be logged as another "SPOT saves the day" rescue?

Yep, when I was in Kodiak, I got to know several of the helicopter pilots in the Coast Guard there. They told me some real horror stories. One such:

This was when PLBs first came out. An ELT (actually a PLB) activated on the east side of Kodiak. Weather was ugly, even for the helicopter crews.

So, they saddled up the alert HH-3 and headed down the east side. Weather was very bad, so they got off shore a ways, very low. Got down to where they could DF the beacon, and flew in to shore.

Turns out some bear hunters from Anchorage had turned on that beacon. Their air taxi operator couldn't fly, and it was obvious why. So, they turned on the PLB. The helicopter pilot asked them if they were okay medically, and had a sufficient supply of food, etc. They were in no danger, but they said the reason they turned on the PLB was that they needed to get to work the next day......seriously.

The Helo commander told them that he'd take them to Kodiak, BUT, since helicopters are prohibited from carrying hunters or their gear to or from the field, this crew would have to leave all their gear and the bear hide and skull there in camp. The hunters jumped on the helicopter and left their camp, their firearms and a bear hide and skull there.

When they got to town, the helo pilot called me and told me where to find the stuff, and suggested I seize it, since it was abandoned. The US Attorney said we'd never make a case, since all the hunters had to do was plead "Survival".

So, the air taxi outfit went down there when the weather lifted, and, predictably, the camp had been ransacked by bears, and the hide had been damaged as well. They couldn't find the skull.

We tried to figure out some way to punish these guys for risking a Coast Guard crew in really nasty weather, when in fact there was no emergency at all.

This kind of nonsense is happening more and more with the advent of the In Reach and SPOT devices, not so much with aviators, but with hikers, bikers, etc.

They're out there, folks....don't be that guy, our SAR folks have a hard enough job to do.

And, for fun, I had my survival vest apart so I took a picture of contents. Understand that the content is very personal. Your mileage may vary, but here's a start:





MTV

All that above ++ a GOOD thick book.

Costco sells this trail mix, and I always keep several 1 cup zip lock bags of the stuff in my crane, (you get about a dozen 1 cup bags out of the big bag, and split up like that, it keeps me from eating the entire bag all at once....) when I can't get to lunch otherwise. A bag of it and a shot of Starbucks instant and I am good to go until dark, it's an awesome combination! Same deal for the plane.

The two most important things for me is a 2 3/4 lb Hudson Bay Axe, and a good sleeping bag........... Then an Inreach!

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