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Weld Quality

Aeronut

Registered User
Kittery, ME
869F0B07-A9C1-447B-B760-6A6203CB7B8C.jpgI‘m practicing welding and wanted to get some feedback on today‘s welds. This is 0.049“ thick 4130 welded with a tig at 49A and 15cfh Argon. Where should I be looking to improve? Is the penetration adequate?8FB200EE-D626-419C-AE7D-EA8400662FDA.jpg
 

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Plenty deep penetration. Too much is bad on thin tubes.

Might try to back off more slowly at end to avoid the craters

Look good enough to me

But practice on thinner wall like .035, .028”.


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What are you using for filler rod on the 4130? I have been using er70s-2 because in several places I have read not to use 4130 filler rod unless you are heat treating after. However, was welding a fish mouth sleeve on a chafed 172 engine mount two days ago, have done a few on part 135 planes, and glanced at ac43.13 before I started. It said that I should be using 4130 filler on 4130 tube. Anyone have any guidance on this? I fixed a Maule muffler today and have done several exhaust components in the past, I think the stainless is just as easy as the 4130 to work with as long as it’s clean. I use 1/16 tungsten and filler unless I have a gap to fill then step it up to 3/32, and usually have the argon around 20. I am jealous of the tube kit looks like a fun project!
 
Filler rod should be ER70S2 or S6. Do not use 4130 rod. Try going with a Furick cup and gas lens, either a Jazzy 10 or a Fula 12. That lets you get you stick out farther and easier to get around the cluster. With the bigger cups, you will need more gas flow, somewhere around 20-25 cfh. Either increase travel speed or reduce your amps. Better to increase travel as it will put less heat overall into the joint. If you have pulse, you can also try that, about .7 seconds seems to work for me. I hate trying to use a pedal when working on a fuselage. Recently got a TIG Button, and that thing is great for working where you can’t manipulate a pedal.


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yes, I hate foot pedal also!

never have been able to make my brain talk to my foot right...

and trying to find a place for the pedal when you are inside fuselage is just another pain....

do you member the game twister? that's what using a foot pedal on aircraft welding is like...

I've always used the finger slider...

I also use the 70s2.... just another example of an error in 43.13 that will never get changed....
 
Just my .02 but I find a foot pedal far easier to use. When bridging the puddle from a thicker tube to a thinner tube you have to drop the heat so you don't blow through the thinner tube and do it repeatedly so just for me a pedal is way faster to use. The production welders I work with all use pedals if that makes any difference. That's also on a bare fuselage that's ideally located in a rotisserie jig so obviously you don't have to contort as much to get inside where you're trying to weld.

The production welders also don't opt to use any pulse setting at all because you get better control pulsing using your foot pedal.
 
View attachment 51978I‘m practicing welding and wanted to get some feedback on today‘s welds. This is 0.049“ thick 4130 welded with a tig at 49A and 15cfh Argon. Where should I be looking to improve? Is the penetration adequate?View attachment 51977

I hope I dont upset you but I dont like it. Do you have a pic of the fit up before you welded it. I see a few areas where it looks like you are washing back n forth presumably trying to get the metals to flow. Looks aside you need to cut that apart and see what kind of fusion you are getting or lack there of in the root. I see inconsistant weld beads, weld height as well as width. I also see pits. slice the joint and show us the results. Sorry and yes I weld for a living most days. Good enough, maybe but I know I couldnt send it out the door and expect paid for it.
 
I hope I dont upset you but I dont like it. .

Cubs were made from NOTCHED pattern tubes for ever. No fancy fit ups.

All welded in a single day by oxy acetylene. (Swirling to move puddle)

People these days are way to picky.

Those old oxy fuselages can bend without cracking. New TIG ones always crack at weld when tubes bend.


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I may be to picky and it may be good enough, not something I could sell as appearance is as important as strenght in the structures we build. Put it In a vise get a hammer and give it an old school test?
 
I actually gas welded some of my components because early on I was more comfortable with that than Tig....I was ignorant about changing cups, and knowing when to adjust settings when in tough spots....takes practice practice practice. The gas welding adjustments felt much more intuitive to me, and I was having trouble sticking my tungsten in tough spots. I got better though. Also, I was much better at this when I was younger and could see . Lol.
 
I should clarify I mean right on edges weld. Not the weld itself.... when I said AT THE WELD.


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I have a wireless foot pedal. It's nice not dragging the cord around for that. I try to avoid welding threads as there are so many opinions I don't care to debate. The OP is looking for feedback so to me his cluster is not unsafe. If you want to emulate how Piper did it then get to practicing with .035 and .028. There is a lot of .028 in Piper fuselages. On the large cups for more "stick out", I tried 'em and don't use them. I hung around a trade show with Jody from Welding tip and tricks and he sent a kit home with me. I feel like they waste argon. My torch is an HW 20 and a gas lens most of the time but when I need to get in tight I switch to a standard collet and skinny cup that lets me into the deep clusters. Experience counts for this, I've been Tig welding since 1979. The nice looking welds you see from places like Airframes, Univair etc. is by weldors that do it all the time. I don't envy them going for long periods of time head down under the hood. That kind of work is for the younger and flexible. My old bones and arthritis have forced me into building good working rotisserie's and other jigs. Remember that powdercoating and epoxy enamel make average welding beautiful. I stay current on the ox/acet. torch too but thats another thread.
 
I have a wireless foot pedal. It's nice not dragging the cord around for that. I try to avoid welding threads as there are so many opinions I don't care to debate. The OP is looking for feedback so to me his cluster is not unsafe. If you want to emulate how Piper did it then get to practicing with .035 and .028. There is a lot of .028 in Piper fuselages. On the large cups for more "stick out", I tried 'em and don't use them. I hung around a trade show with Jody from Welding tip and tricks and he sent a kit home with me. I feel like they waste argon. My torch is an HW 20 and a gas lens most of the time but when I need to get in tight I switch to a standard collet and skinny cup that lets me into the deep clusters. Experience counts for this, I've been Tig welding since 1979. The nice looking welds you see from places like Airframes, Univair etc. is by weldors that do it all the time. I don't envy them going for long periods of time head down under the hood. That kind of work is for the younger and flexible. My old bones and arthritis have forced me into building good working rotisserie's and other jigs. Remember that powdercoating and epoxy enamel make average welding beautiful. I stay current on the ox/acet. torch too but thats another thread.

yes, and TOO MUCH argon will mix with the air and be worse.... more is not always better... can be much WORSE.... practice!
 
My comment was directed at the fuselages YOUR COMPANY SOLD..........

One of these fuselages?;-)

Fuselageresized.jpg

Just messing with ya Mike. I'm sure you've seen some stuff but when you call out someone's welds them are fighting words:p
 

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That looks pretty clean! Any pics of the landing gear showing proper alignment? Could you take that same fuselage with the nice welds, pin some gear legs and show all these guys that your gear lines up? Tired of this talk of your gear toeing in or out. A few min., a laser and a few pics would settle it for good.
 
Let's not kick a hornets nest there. I'm not a representative of Airframes nor am I even all that important. I just sell the parts and from what I've seen and know can stand behind them wholeheartedly. I don't have the time, resources, or pull to take on a measurement project like that for the sake of some petty disputes on an online forum.

The gear in question was a sample size of one. Let's also not forget that BritishCubBloke's Atlee gear didn't fit perfectly. What I can tell you with authority that not any set of gear legs ever has the tops perfectly aligned. It's the nature of trying to line up two little holes 24" apart on the ends of 29" long tubes that are heated past their melting point on both ends. You do your best to get them right but that's all you can do. And then there's the crooked old fuselage that most of the gear gets pinned into....

Let's get back to the OP's questions. This has been enough of a detour for the night.
 
Let's not kick a hornets nest there. I'm not a representative of Airframes nor am I even all that important. I just sell the parts and from what I've seen and know can stand behind them wholeheartedly. I don't have the time, resources, or pull to take on a measurement project like that for the sake of some petty disputes on an online forum.

The gear in question was a sample size of one. Let's also not forget that BritishCubBloke's Atlee gear didn't fit perfectly. What I can tell you with authority that not any set of gear legs ever has the tops perfectly aligned. It's the nature of trying to line up two little holes 24" apart on the ends of 29" long tubes that are heated past their melting point on both ends. You do your best to get them right but that's all you can do. And then there's the crooked old fuselage that most of the gear gets pinned into....

Let's get back to the OP's questions. This has been enough of a detour for the night.

Sorry, from your company I’ve gotten lift struts that were INCHES LONGER than they should have been. & wrong angle... parts promised that were sold to others that were made & promised for my project... wing fittings on fuselages that are to narrow to fit wings fittings on coated..........


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Let's not kick a hornets nest there. I'm not a representative of Airframes nor am I even all that important. I just sell the parts and from what I've seen and know can stand behind them wholeheartedly. I don't have the time, resources, or pull to take on a measurement project like that for the sake of some petty disputes on an online forum.

The gear in question was a sample size of one. Let's also not forget that BritishCubBloke's Atlee gear didn't fit perfectly. What I can tell you with authority that not any set of gear legs ever has the tops perfectly aligned. It's the nature of trying to line up two little holes 24" apart on the ends of 29" long tubes that are heated past their melting point on both ends. You do your best to get them right but that's all you can do. And then there's the crooked old fuselage that most of the gear gets pinned into....

Let's get back to the OP's questions. This has been enough of a detour for the night.

Don’t mean to pick on you guys but your shipping has really gone down hill fast. Used to get parts in a day or two. Now it’s 2 weeks plus.


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Sorry, from your company I’ve gotten lift struts that were INCHES LONGER than they should have been. & wrong angle... parts promised that were sold to others that were made & promised for my project... wing fittings on fuselages that are to narrow to fit wings fittings on coated..........

If you have that much of an issue you should probably call instead of airing it out online. That's about all I have for tonight. Hope we can get this thread back on track.
 
This has been a pretty informative thread and I appreciate the comments, including yours JeffP. This is the time for criticism, retraining, and more practice. I can’t learn if I’m not aware of my mistakes. I‘m not touching my fuselage until I‘m confident in the quality of my welds. One of my goals with this project is attention to every detail.

I‘m going to see about cutting the practice piece to inspect a cross section. I‘ve done destructive testing on some pf my welds over the last couple of weeeks including beating them with a sledge hammer and attached a long lever arm to load up the joint. They‘ve all been solid including one that bent steel square tubing I welded it to so that I can put it in the vice. My biggest concerns now are aesthetics and fatigue failures. Something like a fish eye opening up after a few years of flight cycles.
 
Also, I was using 1/16“ 70S-2 filler rod, a 1/16“ 2% ceriated tungsten, #12 pyrex cup with gas lens, stick out of about 3/4 gas cup diameter, and an on/off trigger on the torch. Although I can use my foot pedal on pieces like this the intent is to practice with the same setup I‘ll be using on the fuselage. I‘m also not using pulsing. I played around with it and thought it did offer value but the constant „flashing“ kept my eyes from being able to focus. I‘m talking the pulse flashing not flashing caused by contamination.

Someone brought up fit. I don‘t have any before pics but using my tube notcher I was able to get a reasonably tight fit up. A gap wasn‘t really present.
 
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Also, I was using 1/16“ 70S-2 filler rod, a 1/16“ 2% ceriated tungsten, #12 pyrex cup with gas lens, stick out of about 3/4 gas cup diameter, and an on/off trigger on the torch. Although I can use my foot pedal on pieces like this the intent is to practice with the same setup I‘ll be using on the fuselage. I‘m also not using pulsing. I played around with it and thought it did offer value but the constant „flashing“ kept my eyes from being able to focus. I‘m talking the pulse flashing not flashing caused by contamination.

Someone brought up fit. I don‘t have any before pics but using my tube notcher I was able to get a reasonably tight fit up. A gap wasn‘t really present.

I like .040 welding wire for the small joints. If I recall you said you were running 15 cfh for gas, with a #12 cup, you may want to bump that up some.

With gas lenses, don’t cheap out! I’ve had the cheap eBay ones and they aren’t worth fussing with. Stick with CK or another name brand.


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