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Thread: Another notch?

  1. #1

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    Another notch?

    I have been out of flying for two years as my cub was being rebuilt (almost had to check myself into an insane-asylum) . I now have a not only new wing but a different wing. I had the PSTOL flaps installed among other things. I am flying all I can to get back up to speed. I noticed today that there was more flap left to come down after I pulled into the 3rd notch. Can't I just cut another notch in past the 3rd notch? I noticed while trying to stall in the 3rd notch that as it was about to stall I pulled back on the flap handle to the end, kinda like the 4th notch that isn't there, and it slowed up even more. WHATDAYATHINK?
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  2. #2

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    More is more. Probably wise to try it with full power in a test go-around situation to see if it makes sense to use it all.

  3. #3
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    What do you think of the PSTOL flaps? I am considering them for my rebuild.

  4. #4
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I'm not the wizard at flap rigging but I'm pretty sure there's always a little left in the flaps on the handful of flapped cubs I've flown. My guess is you need a little over travel on the flap handle and cable so when you lift the handle off the ratchet you're pulling it a little further rather than just straining the cable to get it off the notch in the ratchet. Kind of a "camming over" type of deal.

    But it's just a guess. I'm sure someone more familiar with rigging will chime in.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Longley View Post
    What do you think of the PSTOL flaps? I am considering them for my rebuild.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I’d sure recommend them. They work.
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  6. #6

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    Yep. More is more.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Yep. More is more.
    I think the PSTOL are a good idea but everything costs breadola and you have to decide if that is where you wanna spend the $10,000 or so for purchase and installation. I changed a whole bunch on my cub when it was rebuilt and I am not sure what is doing what but it's like nothing I have ever flown before. I wouldn't take them off and believe they are way better than the std flaps I'd say.

  8. #8

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    If I was you? I'd add a notch and see how it works. I've made new flap arches four times. I'll probably do four more. I had a local water jetter make me a few full rounds for blanks. Find what you like. It's fun.
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  9. #9
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    I noticed today that there was more flap left to come down after I pulled into the 3rd notch. Can't I just cut another notch in past the 3rd notch? I noticed while trying to stall in the 3rd notch that as it was about to stall I pulled back on the flap handle to the end, kinda like the 4th notch that isn't there, and it slowed up even more. WHATDAYATHINK?
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    If I was you? I'd add a notch and see how it works. I've made new flap arches four times. I'll probably do four more. I had a local water jetter make me a few full rounds for blanks. Find what you like. It's fun.
    Like Stewart says, do it. The part with the notches is easily removable with only one bolt.

    I can't speak to the Keller flaps. The flaps on my Cub are identical to the original except twice as long. When I put in the extra notch to get the maximum deflection, it required two hands to pull the handle enough to release the catch. Since the plane came with a shortened flap handle I had to lengthen it to get the needed leverage.
    N1PA
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  10. #10
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I'd be curious what your deflection is on your 3rd notch. My flap handle has 4 notches and the last notch is all I can go unless I were to make another, longer ratchet.


    As far as P-STOL flaps that is one mod I never want to do without. I don't realize it now that they have been on for 1.5 years untill I fly another Super Cub without them.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  11. #11
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I'd be curious what your deflection is on your 3rd notch. My flap handle has 4 notches and the last notch is all I can go unless I were to make another, longer ratchet.


    As far as P-STOL flaps that is one mod I never want to do without. I don't realize it now that they have been on for 1.5 years untill I fly another Super Cub without them.
    Steve do you have stock wings other than the PSTOL flaps? I am cogitating on what I want to do with my wings.

  12. #12
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Only mod I have on the wings are Micro VGs.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  13. #13
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Mr Pierce on the wings. The highest time pilot I've ever worked with told me to keep the wings 'just the way Piper designed them'.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  14. #14
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Stock wings w/ PSTOL flaps...that's the way all the guides running -18's roll

  15. #15

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    You mean air guides don't admit to operating their Cubs with unapproved mods on their wings? Who knew?
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  16. #16

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    I too have stock wings (used to have long wings and tips and a cuff) and did add BLR vgs. I did read the STC on the Keller's (I always read directions after I have put something together; luckily I didn't install these bad boys) and it says 50 degrees + or - 4 degrees I believe. Now I gotta figure out how to measure the angle, exactly. Any ideas how to do that?
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  17. #17
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Put a digital level on the bottom of the wing and zero and then on the deflected flap.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    I too have stock wings (used to have long wings and tips and a cuff) and did add BLR vgs. I did read the STC on the Keller's (I always read directions after I have put something together; luckily I didn't install these bad boys) and it says 50 degrees + or - 4 degrees I believe. Now I gotta figure out how to measure the angle, exactly. Any ideas how to do that?
    Dave you use a tool like this oneClick image for larger version. 

Name:	D9967C9E-5396-4FF2-A79E-830DFBBD0011.jpg 
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ID:	51945same one Lyn and I used on your plane when we put the flaps on.

  19. #19

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    I use the Angle Pro app on my iPhone. The Ridgid Digital Level app is also very good.

  20. #20
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    You mean air guides don't admit to operating their Cubs with unapproved mods on their wings? Who knew?
    I guess you haven't met too many guides...yes pretty much all of them run stock wings. Lets go check in with Paul Claus and see if he's running any extended/squared/slats/junk on his wings.

    All that junk on the wing becomes a big liability in adverse conditions as you've indicated when talking about crosswinds. Sometimes having all that aileron and having a wing that doesn't keep flying when you're on the ground can be a help rather than a hinderance.
    Last edited by Crash, Jr.; 10-28-2020 at 02:43 PM.

  21. #21

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    I'm sure you're right. All that junk. I'll leave you to it.

  22. #22
    Rob's Avatar
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    Guides (operators) come in 2 flavors (like most everyone else).Those that run 'limited' because they are playing by the rules to the letter, and those that push the limits a little, including mods and rules.
    And FWIW, emulating a guide plane for a 'fun' plane is a good way to limit how fun your plane can be.... striving to fly like that guide on the other hand, would be a far better plan to extract performance.

    Take care, Rob
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  23. #23
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    You mean air guides don't admit to operating their Cubs with unapproved mods on their wings? Who knew?
    They are approved.
    https://www.airframesalaska.com/Perf...STOL_a/268.htm

    STC'd for PA-18s, certified Performance STOL flaps are a 66" direct replacement for OEM Piper Cub flaps extended to the fuselage.
    N1PA
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  24. #24

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    Do the VG's actually do anything once you install the PSTOL flaps? Would not the reduced deck angle on approach (AOA) eliminate any benefit from VG's?
    Last edited by bubb2; 11-01-2020 at 10:32 AM.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    I guess you haven't met too many guides...yes pretty much all of them run stock wings. Lets go check in with Paul Claus and see if he's running any extended/squared/slats/junk on his wings.

    All that junk on the wing becomes a big liability in adverse conditions as you've indicated when talking about crosswinds. Sometimes having all that aileron and having a wing that doesn't keep flying when you're on the ground can be a help rather than a hinderance.
    Depends which of his planes you are looking at.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubb2 View Post
    Do the VG's actually do anything once you install the PSTOL flaps? Would not the reduced deck angle on approach (AOA) eliminate any benefit from VG's?
    Anyone?
    Javron O-375 wide body extended wing cub
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  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by bubb2 View Post
    Do the VG's actually do anything once you install the PSTOL flaps? Would not the reduced deck angle on approach (AOA) eliminate any benefit from VG's?
    You can fly PSTOLs with a slightly more level deck angle and a small reduction in stall speed. You can also get really slow by cranking up the AOA giving you a similar sight picture to standard flaps. Each approach has its place. VGs still do their job in my opinion. Don’t forget that with the Micros you still have vgs on the underside of the stab.
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  28. #28

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    I agree with Kevin. Yesterday I landed, VGs and PSTOL, and the tail wheel hit first. How steep was my AOA? Where the VGs helping? I don't know but, like Kevin said, you can still get a more traditional sight picture with the PSTOL fully extended if you want to.
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  29. #29
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    You can fly PSTOLs with a slightly more level deck angle and a small reduction in stall speed. You can also get really slow by cranking up the AOA giving you a similar sight picture to standard flaps. Each approach has its place. VGs still do their job in my opinion. Don’t forget that with the Micros you still have vgs on the underside of the stab.
    Did you try the same plane with the PSTOLs both with and without the VGs? My opinion is that the PSTOLs perform the same function as the VGs only better. The VGs with the PSTOL flaps are just going along for the ride. I challenge someone to prove me wrong. I'll accept documented proof.
    N1PA

  30. #30
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Another notch?

    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Did you try the same plane with the PSTOLs both with and without the VGs? My opinion is that the PSTOLs perform the same function as the VGs only better. The VGs with the PSTOL flaps are just going along for the ride. I challenge someone to prove me wrong. I'll accept documented proof.
    The nice thing I noticed with vg’s is when I was coming in to land in loudon on a windy day, slow the gust lifted a wing. In my cub with vg’s I move the aileron and the wing lifts. This cub I moved the aileron and nothing happened. Made me say huh that’s interesting. Little rudder and the wing came up.

    I haven’t flown pstol flaps yet but they shipped. Should be here in two weeks. I remember when airframes shipping was great.

    Pete, you’re welcome to fly my cub and try them out. It will give me a good excuse to fly down on floats.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  31. #31
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Thanks Tom, that should be fun. I haven't flown that set of floats for years. The airplane they were on had drooping ailerons when the flaps were down.

    When you get the pstol flaps installed, take off the Vgs in front of the flaps. Try it.
    The Vgs in front of the ailerons are the ones which improved the roll control.
    N1PA

  32. #32

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    Why would VGs be less effective with split flaps? How would split flaps keep the airflow attached to the top of the wing? Did you ever put VGs on your Cessna? Great flaps, right? What did VGs bring to the party?
    Last edited by stewartb; 11-02-2020 at 08:15 AM.

  33. #33

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    A couple of guys have mentioned hitting their tails. High AOA while dragging it in with power? Change the relative AOA by making the final approach steeper. More flap angle-more drag-more capability to land it steep. VGs will help.

  34. #34
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Stewart,
    You are not understanding what the Vgs are doing. At high angles of attack, the airflow separates from the upper surface of any wing starting at the trailing edge moving forward towards the leading edge as the angle of attack increases. With the stock single slotted original flaps on the -18, they achieve their critical angle of attack at a certain angle of attack of the wing. Adding the Vgs at the leading edge influences the flow at the trailing edge in such a manner which allows the wing to achieve a higher angle of attack than without the Vgs and the flaps retaining their lift without stalling at a higher angle of attack.

    The extra slot and the articulation of the PSTOL flaps helps in holding the airflow to the upper surface of the trailing edge at a higher angle of attack on the main wing. It does this by providing an incremental increase in angle of attack which is controlled by the surface immediately preceding the surface in question.

    An optimum angle of change of a surface without stalling the surface and providing maximum lift is approximately 20 - 25 degrees. The angle between a stock -18's wing and it's flap is 50 degrees. The single slot is an improvement over a hinged flap without a slot and provides the same advantage as the slats on your wing does to the entire surface. The angle between an -18 wing and a PSTOL flap's first surface is aprox 25 degrees and the angle between the first flap segment and the second flap segment is another 25 degrees. This provides a total of 50 degrees of flap deflection with each surface only seeing a 25 degree change in airflow direction.

    I did not and will not put Vgs on my 185 because with the wing extensions and drooping ailerons the stall speed is so low that I have run out of rudder on take off. If there were Vgs reducing the stall speed further, the rudder would run out of authority more often.
    N1PA
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  35. #35

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    It's ironic that you challenge others to install and test when you haven't done so. VGs aren't about stall speed to me. They lower the speed at which I fly familiar attitudes at typical pattern speeds. And as for rudder? My Cessna rudder has VGs, too.
    You should try them.

    On the Cub? When I asked Jerry Burr where I should place VGs so they'd best compliment my slats? He told me I had it backwards. Slats energize the VGs. I'm always open to learning from guys who know. What I know? My wing works very well.

  36. #36

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    Pete, I wish I was closer so I could come by for and educational coffee once a week I’m always impressed with the thought that goes into your posts.

    Is the outside portion of the VG and Pstol equipped cub wing still benefiting from the energized airflow from the outer VGs at a high AOA?
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  37. #37
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    It's ironic that you challenge others to install and test when you haven't done so. VGs aren't about stall speed to me. They lower the speed at which I fly familiar attitudes at typical pattern speeds. And as for rudder? My Cessna rudder has VGs, too.
    You should try them.

    On the Cub? When I asked Jerry Burr where I should place VGs so they'd best compliment my slats? He told me I had it backwards. Slats energize the VGs. I'm always open to learning from guys who know. What I know? My wing works very well.
    Stewart, I expected that type of answer from you. You don't have anywhere the knowledge of aerodynamics that you think you have. And you appear to be too stubborn to learn. Years ago I earned my living experimenting in aviation aerodynamics. Sometimes I wish I never tried to help you.
    N1PA

  38. #38
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Pete, I wish I was closer so I could come by for and educational coffee once a week I’m always impressed with the thought that goes into your posts.

    Is the outside portion of the VG and Pstol equipped cub wing still benefiting from the energized airflow from the outer VGs at a high AOA?
    Thank you for your kind compliment Kevin.

    Because I haven't tested that exact combination, this is just an educated guess. Yes.
    N1PA
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Stewart, I expected that type of answer from you. You don't have anywhere the knowledge of aerodynamics that you think you have. And you appear to be too stubborn to learn. Years ago I earned my living experimenting in aviation aerodynamics. Sometimes I wish I never tried to help you.
    I never said I have knowledge of anything other than what I've tried. One of my best friends is a professor of aerospace engineering so what I don't understand I bounce off of him. His take a year ago on Rev 3 flaps compared to Keller flaps has turned out to be spot on. I'll ask him about VGs with split flaps. Not to argue, but because I'm curious.

    Bottom line? VGs work well on my planes. The Cessna was very familiar to me before VGs and the benefits of VGs were clear from the very first flight. My Cub is less familiar so I went with empirical knowledge from those who have similar airplanes. That's one of the benefits of group discussions.

  40. #40
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    .... I did not and will not put Vgs on my 185 because with the wing extensions and drooping ailerons the stall speed is so low that I have run out of rudder on take off. If there were Vgs reducing the stall speed further, the rudder would run out of authority more often.
    This comment caught my eye.
    My take is that the VG's are supposed to improve control authority,
    and any reduction in stall speed is kind of a bonus.
    From the MicroAero website https://microaero.com/

    "Micro Vortex Generators are small aluminum blades placed in a spanwise line aft of the leading edge of the wing and tail surfaces. They control airflow over the upper surface of the wing by creating vortices that energize the boundary layer. This results in improved performance and control authority at low airspeeds and high angles of attack."

    The VG kit for the 185 has VG's for the wing, the horizontal stabilizer, and the vertical stabilizer-
    so ideally it should improve low speed control effectiveness in all three axises.

    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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