PA-12 vs PA-14 ?

I am selling my C-180 and going back to tube and fabric.
Looking at 150 horse PA-12s with flaps and a couple PA-14s with 150 horse.
On Floats can anyone say either is at an advantage or disadvantage?

They're most likely on pretty even footing as far as performance on floats or wheels for that matter. The PA-12 definitely has more support in terms of drawings, parts, STC's, and people that can repair them. PA-14's are fantastic planes but are all mostly on their last legs by now unless it's one of the rare ones that's had a comprehensive rebuild. Either way a good prebuy inspection and taking a close look for rusted tubing is in order for either.

Useful load on floats is always the issue for training. It is a lot easier to make the training profile work with a 2000lb PA18 than with a PA12. At least that is my impression from poking through W&B sheets on a few of each.

Not many -14s were made I recall.


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A -12 needs a gross increase to be useful legally. They fly great at 1935#, too. Really good on EDO 2000s. I enjoyed mine.

@stewartb "I really liked mine" - Me too

Not answering your question really but Ive only sat in a pa14....not much room in the front for two if your moderate to large sized.

farm_boy252 said:

Not answering your question really but Ive only sat in a pa14....not much room in the front for two if your moderate to large sized.

Click to expand...

Agreed, narrower than a Pacer. The one I have flown had individual sliding front sets, not sure if they all had that. You could slide one seat back s you weren't shoulder to shoulder but then you couldn't reach the rudder pedals.

I’ve had the privilege of owning both a -12 and a -14 I enjoyed them both. The -14 is narrow up front and not really great for 2 large adults. Also, its a bit nose heavy with 2up front. With one in front and one in back it was good. The one I had used the long mount. You don’t get much more weight on floats either- #1850 if I recall correctly. There is no provision for floats on the -14 Type Certificate so you’ll need them field approved. If your going to use it for training, it’s going to take them a flight or two to get used to having the left hand on the stick. Upside of plane is that if you were using it for guiding, with the front seat removed, extended baggage and a pod, it’s got a TON of cargo capicity.

A -12 with the #1935 up gross and flaps is a great plane all around. Lots of room in both the front and back seats and the capability to do 95% of what a super cub cub can do. Hard to beat and they can be found at a reasonable price. Downside- it takes a lot of mods to make it a really tough working airplane. Both the flap mod and the #1935 up gross require a lot of work so if you can find one, plan accordingly on price. Also, each -12 is different and you often can’t just call and order parts- they often need to be hand fabricated. If I were doing training, I’d look at a -12 with flaps and #1935 weight increase.

Dean had a 12 at AFN for many years he instructed with. I put a lot of hours on that bird and loved it!

I read someplace that SOME PA-14s managed to also get the 1935 gross weight increase by doing the same mods that were done to the PA-12.
I did a float rating in a 180 horse PA-14 with a squared tail and other mods. She was really snappy out of the water. But as noted, a wee bit narrow. It had doors on both sides. BUT I only weight 205 pounds in those days not 225. And the owner was not huge either...

I am wondering if insurance might be more on a 14 since there were only 245 made. At least compared to a 12.

A Steve Bryant built PRODUCER would be the ticket... if one could be found.

For some reason there are suddenly a few hangar queen 12s on the market that are 125 horse, no flaps and have not been in the sky for 20 years.

Insurance would be more because of 4 seats as well.

There's lots of collateral fallout from the virus and economy with many aircraft for sale. The expense of upkeep or overhaul has finally become a major player, plus we are aging out as a group. I was amazed reading Barnstormer's today compared to a few weeks ago on the number offered. Eventually prices will adjust from asking to reality. There's even a set of those welded strut PA-12 floats FS with a plane. A local set painted green to match lingered for years then disappeared.

Gary

Flew a 14 yesterday with a 160 and older squared wings. No VSI but she seemed doggy in climb to 1000 ft with just two of us aboard. And was not pushing the red line with a 82/42 prop. Some thing was not quite right...

I had both a PA14 and PA12 at the same time. The 14 is essentially a wide body 12. The 14 originally came with flaps and the 12s did not. It’s possible to add flaps to a 12 and many have had that done to them. The 14 is cozy in the front which is just fine if you like your wife. The back seat is great for the dog or for lots of gear if the rear seat is removed which is very easily done. They both fly very similar when equipped the same. The 12 is very spacious feeling in both the front and rear seats. The 12 was actually designed for 2 people in the rear and one in the front. They both only have one door which is on the right side. Since the pilot usually sits on the left it means that the passenger has to get out if the pilot forgot to preflight something. There are only 90+ 14s registered so they can be hard to find.

The one I flew yesterday had a door on both sides and both front seats had seat rails.
The 180 horse I flew before on floats had that as well.
My buddy has one ( PA-14) in his hangar that he never takes out. It only has one door and one seat that moves. But it is in super sharp condition.

The 180 horse PA-14 from years ago. I did the owners float rating. It was an excellent plane.

Alex from an instructors perspective which is better - 12 or 14? And for the student's? For example I'd not be comfortable as a student with left stick right throttle, but in a Cessna it's now normal.

Gary

True. I was thinking with a 14 with a door on each side it would not matter which side I sat on as the instructor.
The 12 would mean instructing from the back seat. And 12s are great for that since I can slide over to one side and see around the person up front...
However most 12s I have seen with doors on both sides do not have a rear throttle.

And another advantage of a PA-12 for FLOAT FLYING is that both pilots can see the water and shore line from either side of the plane.
A real plus for glassy water landings along the shoreline. Plus have better inflight vision on both sides for seeing other traffic.

The 14 suffers from the same problems as Cessna's ( except the Bird Dog) and Pacers, with limited vision to one side.

INSTRUCTORS VIEW IN A PA-12

I owned a PA-12-180 for 4 yrs. Excellent performance on EDO 2000's but needed a ventral fin. Easy to get in and out quick to beach on rivers or in stiff winds. Had a Cessna seat and rails that could be moved back right now to allow movement plus swing-up seaplane door. Never sat in or flew a -14 but I'd want to be able to exit quickly w/o controls or doors in the way. Having a passenger exit first to get out would not be safe.

Gary

a Left Hand door for the -14 is available per STC. if yu think yu need it for instructing. Sliding seat STC is also available for the -14, I think it necessary for wheel or float ops and to configure the cabin for best utility.

I dont think Left Door is necessary for floats. My wife moves pretty quick, tho. and sometimes for a tricky docking or launching I would sit in the right seat.

Not directed at anyone in particular, but generally....If yu are worried about “right stick/left throttle..left stick/right throttle”... get over it like the rest of us have done. It is not a problem whatsoever