Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 52

Thread: PA-18 with C90 - Mods - When to Stop

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    COLLEGE STATION, TX
    Posts
    81
    Post Thanks / Like

    PA-18 with C90 - Mods - When to Stop

    At some point, every project reaches the point of diminishing returns and that is what I am trying to evaluate and stop short of so I am asking for opinions here.

    I have a very clean SC with a C90. STC's include the FA Dodge X-Brace, Cubcrafters gap seals, Micro Vortex generators, Clevelands, FA Dodge Safety Cables and I think that's it mostly.

    Here's my question: I am considering extended gear like the Cubcrafters 3x3, AOSS or Acme suspension (if they get certified) and bushwheels but my concern is that I am putting lipstick on a pig at that point because it is still a C90 and so will I benefit much off airport with the improved suspension and better AOA even it is still only 90 HP. Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,110
    Post Thanks / Like
    If you’re doing much off airport work, the Bushwheels are great. I’d stop right about there.

    MTV
    Likes skipster liked this post

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    COLLEGE STATION, TX
    Posts
    81
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    If you’re doing much off airport work, the Bushwheels are great. I’d stop right about there.

    MTV
    So add Bushwheels but not extended gear? Go all the way to 31's or just 29's? Thanks in advance.

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    39
    Post Thanks / Like
    There’s been a few threads in the past asking the same question, most of the responses were to keep it light and simple. I’ve had my C90 PA-18 for a while now and I’d have to agree. I enjoy mine for what it is, sticking to mostly grass strips. It’s basically stock except for light weight battery, light weight starter and alt, and safety cables. If I ever want a more capable modified Super Cub I’ll build or buy one.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    SE Montana
    Posts
    278
    Post Thanks / Like
    What is the current weight of your plane as it is?

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Mt.
    Posts
    1,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    The 90 hp Cub I built up had light weight everything, then 3” extended gear,flaps,and a 74” prop. It is a little rocket ship as long as it’s not packing a hugh load and kept up with a whole group of us guys flying around on skis having a blast...or maybe it was blasting things. I did have to give the buddies flying it 10 gallons of gas to get them back with us as they were using all 90 hp all day and our 160s were loafing part of the day.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Canyon, tx
    Posts
    639
    Post Thanks / Like
    Shed the starter and put that weight towards a pair of 29” Airstreaks. A light weight prop and acmes sure wouldn’t hurt....It’s probably more important to see what you can subtract instead of add?

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    COLLEGE STATION, TX
    Posts
    81
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by 1934A View Post
    What is the current weight of your plane as it is?
    990 lbs

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    COLLEGE STATION, TX
    Posts
    81
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Shed the starter and put that weight towards a pair of 29” Airstreaks. A light weight prop and acmes sure wouldn’t hurt....It’s probably more important to see what you can subtract instead of add?
    tempting but so many years of propping my J3 and now electric start has spoiled me!
    Thanks J3Jim thanked for this post
    Likes KevinJ liked this post

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    39
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Shed the starter and put that weight towards a pair of 29” Airstreaks. A light weight prop and acmes sure wouldn’t hurt....It’s probably more important to see what you can subtract instead of add?
    Think I read somewhere on here that you’d need a field approval for airstreaks on PA-18-95, it didn’t make the STC list or something along those lines.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    SE Montana
    Posts
    278
    Post Thanks / Like
    990# is plenty heavy for a C90... I'd be hesitant to add any extra weight if I were you. Sounds like you need a 775# PA-11!

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Canyon, tx
    Posts
    639
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by MZ18 View Post
    Think I read somewhere on here that you’d need a field approval for airstreaks on PA-18-95, it didn’t make the STC list or something along those lines.
    I guess Pierce would be the go to on that or use the catto stc. It allows for airstreaks I think.Not really. I didn’t say that
    Likes RaisedByWolves, flynlow liked this post

  13. #13
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    10,650
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by sdischer View Post
    So add Bushwheels but not extended gear? Go all the way to 31's or just 29's? Thanks in advance.
    What do you expect to get with the extended gear that the bushwheels will not provide? They both increase the relationship of the wings angle to the ground. Doing both seems excessive perhaps too much, particularly with a 90 hp Cub.
    N1PA
    Likes skipster liked this post

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    COLLEGE STATION, TX
    Posts
    81
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    What do you expect to get with the extended gear that the bushwheels will not provide? They both increase the relationship of the wings angle to the ground. Doing both seems excessive perhaps too much, particularly with a 90 hp Cub.
    More clearance, more AOA, but again as other have said enough is enough and more may be too much.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    20,166
    Post Thanks / Like
    We operated a 90 hp Super Cub off gravel bars for many years. No flaps, 8.50s for a while but limitations on where you could go. 29" Airstreaks were great via Field Approval (I have a packet). The main reason I want extended gear is for prop clearance. No 82" props aproved for the C90 so that is an additional 5 lbs for not much gain in my opinion.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Thanks sdischer thanked for this post
    Likes sdischer liked this post

  16. #16
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    10,650
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by sdischer View Post
    More clearance, more AOA, but again as other have said enough is enough and more may be too much.
    I can give you an example of too much angle of attack, though not in this case a Cub. I had an airplane which would fly "like" a Cub when very lightly loaded. It would easily get off the ground from a tail low attitude in as short as 2-300 feet. I would consistently let it fly off tail low in all loaded conditions. One day I flew it to Hampton NH where I filled it with freight which consisted of many boxes of WW2 British flying helmets. (Eventually sold them to Cole Palin at Rhinebeck, but that's another story.) Using my normal tail low let it fly off attitude, it would not accelerate to a high enough speed to fly. Oh Oh! Not a good idea to try to stop either! Pushed forward on the yoke raising the tail to a more level attitude, reduced the drag enough to accelerate and fly. Another lesson learned that day. Sometimes airplanes don't fly well heavy, under powered with a high angle of attack.

    Your question of extended gear and/or bush tires reminded me of this incident.

    The airplane was a Cessna T-50.

    If you are considering an option of this type, go with the bushwheels and a stock landing gear. If you really "have to have" the extended gear you can do that easily later.
    N1PA

  17. #17
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    MT/SD
    Posts
    539
    Post Thanks / Like
    Think about repitching the prop. C90 is a pullin machine. What you may constitute as lack of power could just be in pitch.
    And i believe they make a 26" airstreak now. A couple of us runn aero classics around here.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Pelham NH
    Posts
    196
    Post Thanks / Like
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20191010_131919_001.jpg 
Views:	46 
Size:	254.1 KB 
ID:	51811Here is a picture of my PA18-95. safety cables, 29" BWs, 71-43 prop. Just does not climb like a 150 SC.
    Likes 1934A liked this post

  19. #19

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    SE Montana
    Posts
    278
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Chip D View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20191010_131919_001.jpg 
Views:	46 
Size:	254.1 KB 
ID:	51811Here is a picture of my PA18-95. safety cables, 29" BWs, 71-43 prop. Just does not climb like a 150 SC.
    What's it weigh? Electrical? Two fuel tanks? We need details!

  20. #20
    flyrite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lyons,GA
    Posts
    508
    Post Thanks / Like
    My mount obviously is not a super cub. But it is tremendously similar in what you have, in that it has a C-90, and an empty weight of just under 900 pounds. Get a good pulling Prop, Get plenty of seat time so that you fly the wing by feel in the lower end of the speed dial And you will go anywhere the higher horsepower guys go!
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3I...BeIpTZRuF_QQog

  21. #21
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,205
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by 1934A View Post
    What's it weigh? Electrical? Two fuel tanks? We need details!
    I don’t remember the weight but yes starter and alternator two 18 gal fuel tanks


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thanks 1934A thanked for this post

  22. #22

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Pelham NH
    Posts
    196
    Post Thanks / Like
    starter, alternator, ADSB in/out, dual 18gal. tanks, extended baggage, safety cables, memory foam seats, Status transponder, Garmin radio, no toilet.
    Thanks 1934A thanked for this post

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Pelham NH
    Posts
    196
    Post Thanks / Like
    Steve's gascolator, Steve high pressure master cylinders, Garmin 396, and foreflight. Tom have I forgot anything.
    Thanks 1934A thanked for this post

  24. #24
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    265
    Post Thanks / Like
    Remove anything that isn't absolutely necessary, add 29" Airstreaks, and add gas. If it's in the budget a 76/38 prop might be a worthwhile addition.

    Honestly with how light the J3/PA11/18-95's are they don't need the extras that the heavier cubs do. Just learn to fly it and I think you'll be surprised how well it does. Extended gear is nice if you have a longer prop like 80" but really not needed for the shorter props on the small cubs. With 90hp dragging the airframe around the prime consideration is weight and anywhere you can save it. Even the stock bungees work fine just because you're not flopping down all that much weight.
    Likes 1934A, Steve Pierce, Coondog liked this post

  25. #25
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    3,505
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Remove anything that isn't absolutely necessary
    This is the 'prime directive' for all small aircraft.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
    Likes RaisedByWolves liked this post

  26. #26
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,205
    Post Thanks / Like
    Also the new aluminum lift struts are approved on pa-18. That will loose 12lbs


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  27. #27
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,110
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by sdischer View Post
    So add Bushwheels but not extended gear? Go all the way to 31's or just 29's? Thanks in advance.
    I wouldn’t go to extended gear. If you can get the 29 inch Airstreak field approved, I’d go there in a heartbeat. If not, probably 29 inch BW. That alone will give all the prop clearance you need. And angle.

    With an electric Cub, I’d swap the stock battery for an Odyssey or Earth X, preferably under seat with Atlee’s kit. Then, if electric stuff quits, replace with lightweight starter, alternator, etc. But only as stuff fails. Unless money is no problem. But those can reduce weight substantially.

    MTV
    Likes RaisedByWolves liked this post

  28. #28

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Upper Peninsula of Michigan
    Posts
    488
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Also the new aluminum lift struts are approved on pa-18. That will loose 12lbs


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Who is making those now? And how much??

  29. #29
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,205
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    Who is making those now? And how much??
    https://www.airframesalaska.com/Alum...uts-s/2061.htm $3600. I'm sure they will go up from there

    STC says 18 18s 18-105 125 135 150 l18c 19s I think that covers about all. The 18-90 i have here now is reg as an 18

  30. #30

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Pelham NH
    Posts
    196
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yes, I would like to shed a 100 pounds or so but the plane is nicely set up. I just take longer to get to altitude verus the 150 hp. SC's. you can get into places but you really need to be conscious of getting back out. It all about flying the wing not the prop in a 90hp.
    Thanks flyrite thanked for this post
    Likes mvivion liked this post

  31. #31

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Pelham NH
    Posts
    196
    Post Thanks / Like
    Tom,
    we will have to put my plane on the scales and see what it really weights.

  32. #32
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Heber City, UT
    Posts
    64
    Post Thanks / Like
    I sometimes envy you lower elevation pilots and your ability to fly lower HP planes. But I would have a hard time leaving my present location

  33. #33
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,110
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    I sometimes envy you lower elevation pilots and your ability to fly lower HP planes. But I would have a hard time leaving my present location
    You might be surprised. I'm at 4500ish and summer DAs are regularly well over 7000. I flew a Piper PA-11 out of here for five years and never really had to worry much about altitude. Sometimes I got help from terrain, but last time I came back from Idaho in that plane, I was at 11,500 msl, and that was pretty easy. Correct prop, and a little patience, and most of all, careful loading allow those airplanes to work.

    As the man said, you do have to fly the wing.....

    A friend who posts on here went to Oshkosh from SE Idaho year before last in a 90 hp PA-11 with one fuel stop, and in one day, up over 9 K....good tailwind.

    They will teach you a few things about wind, thermals, etc.

    MTV
    Likes 1934A, Utah-Jay, RaisedByWolves liked this post

  34. #34
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,205
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Chip D View Post
    Tom,
    we will have to put my plane on the scales and see what it really weights.
    I don’t think we want to do that hahaha they are usually heavier than the paperwork says


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Likes mam90 liked this post

  35. #35
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Heber City, UT
    Posts
    64
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    You might be surprised. I'm at 4500ish and summer DAs are regularly well over 7000. I flew a Piper PA-11 out of here for five years and never really had to worry much about altitude. Sometimes I got help from terrain, but last time I came back from Idaho in that plane, I was at 11,500 msl, and that was pretty easy. Correct prop, and a little patience, and most of all, careful loading allow those airplanes to work.

    As the man said, you do have to fly the wing.....

    A friend who posts on here went to Oshkosh from SE Idaho year before last in a 90 hp PA-11 with one fuel stop, and in one day, up over 9 K....good tailwind.

    They will teach you a few things about wind, thermals, etc.

    MTV
    I am at 5600’ and out DA’s often hit 9000’+ and I want to land at higher elevations at times.

  36. #36
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    265
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    I wouldn’t go to extended gear. If you can get the 29 inch Airstreak field approved, I’d go there in a heartbeat. If not, probably 29 inch BW. That alone will give all the prop clearance you need. And angle.

    With an electric Cub, I’d swap the stock battery for an Odyssey or Earth X, preferably under seat with Atlee’s kit. Then, if electric stuff quits, replace with lightweight starter, alternator, etc. But only as stuff fails. Unless money is no problem. But those can reduce weight substantially.

    MTV
    Forget Earth-X and starter, tear all that crap off and hand prop it. If you can't hand prop a small Cont safely then you're doing it wrong!

    You should be able to lose an easy 15lbs at least taking the flywheel, wiring, starter, and battery out. On an engine that has a whopping 7.5:1 compression ratio I count an electric starter as an unnecessary item.

  37. #37

    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    COLLEGE STATION, TX
    Posts
    81
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks to everyone for the constructive advice. I think I will ask Santa for 29" Airstreaks and just fly it. Replace the stuff that goes out with lighter stuff and spend my money on Ga$!
    Likes Steve Pierce liked this post

  38. #38

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    SE Montana
    Posts
    278
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by sdischer View Post
    Thanks to everyone for the constructive advice. I think I will ask Santa for 29" Airstreaks and just fly it. Replace the stuff that goes out with lighter stuff and spend my money on Ga$!
    If Airframes has a Black Friday sale, count me in for a set, too!
    Likes sdischer liked this post

  39. #39

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    39
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    With an electric Cub, I’d swap the stock battery for an Odyssey or Earth X, preferably under seat with Atlee’s kit. Then, if electric stuff quits, replace with lightweight starter, alternator, etc. But only as stuff fails. Unless money is no problem. But those can reduce weight substantially.

    MTV
    When I replaced my boat anchor battery with a lightweight I moved it under the front seat, but I wish I kept it in the original location. It’s too nose heavy now when solo. Still within limits when solo but doesn’t land as nice unless there’s ballast in the baggage area.
    Likes skywagon8a, Steve Pierce liked this post

  40. #40
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,110
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Forget Earth-X and starter, tear all that crap off and hand prop it. If you can't hand prop a small Cont safely then you're doing it wrong!

    You should be able to lose an easy 15lbs at least taking the flywheel, wiring, starter, and battery out. On an engine that has a whopping 7.5:1 compression ratio I count an electric starter as an unnecessary item.
    An electrical system is a real luxury. I had a no electric Cub for five or so years. Propping an airplane doesn’t scare me, but I’ll tell you, the “squeeze” is on that process, and it gets tighter every time some numb nuts runs his airplane through a bunch of planes/hangars/etc. one of these days the insurance industry is going to figure that out.

    Even the FAA is getting I that act now, dropping hints every time there’s an incident.

    But, frankly, I just don’t need the stress, and I am very experienced at the process.

    And, it’s just really nice to climb aboard and twist that key, specially on a cold icy day.

    To each his own, but frankly, if my Cub had been an 18-90 with electric, I’d probably still own it.

    And, you can remove a lot of weight going to lightweight components. Those old generators are HEAVY, and mostly a POS as well.

    MTV
    Thanks sdischer thanked for this post
    Likes RaisedByWolves, sdischer, Crash, Jr. liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. Please help stop E15
    By Farmboy in forum In The News
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 05-17-2019, 01:55 PM
  2. You Never Know Who Will Stop By.
    By Steve Pierce in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 11-03-2008, 03:32 PM
  3. Places to stop (not to stop)
    By stearmann4 in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-15-2007, 10:32 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •