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Thread: Rans S-21 Outbound

  1. #1
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    Rans S-21 Outbound

    So after the Sunday go to meeting breakfast with the other flying deciples of new england taildragger church of aviation at Hampton, NH I stopped into Sanford to give a friend a ride. afterward, I saw 2 different S-21 under construction, both at Sanford. I have to confess I havent spent much time and attention to any of the Rans offerings, other than a couple guys I know with S7S here in Maine. Both these S-21 have Titan 0-340 engines, swinging a Whirlwind ga 200ground asjust prop. Really nice looking design, good cruise and stall speeds. Mid 800-900 empty wt. They should be a screamer. Has anyone flown the factory demo 2-21?

    Jim

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    Farmboy's Avatar
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    They are Jim. I've not flown one, but I researched and looked really really hard at them a year or so ago, when they first came out. All metal, fast build, great speed. Trade-off is light weight makes them more kite like than a Supercub, and in turbulence. Rans style seating position is a personal taste thing, with legs stretched out instead of bent at the knee. Tube frame is small diameter tubing connected to monocoque tail section - it's a mix of cub and cessna but with no fabric.
    Overall I'm sure I would have been happy with one, just didn't connect well with the owners and had a hard time wrapping my head around a company that started with ultralights. As you might imagine I like really strong airframes.

    pb

    As it's a side by side, I wouldn't be surprised to see one show up in central NH at some point.

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    WWhunter's Avatar
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    Farmboy mentioned a lot of the points that I also observed while looking at the S-21 Outbound. I did go on a demo flight, but it was before they had one fitted with the Titan engine. The one I flew had the 912 Rotax. It was a nice flying plane, with very similar feel/flying qualities of the S-7. The light wing loading does make it feel somewhat 'kite like' with the Rotax. I would think the Titan would result in a heavier aircraft closer to the 1,000 lb. mark loaded with typical instruments. The plane with the 340 would be a sweet ride!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    They are Jim. I've not flown one, but I researched and looked really really hard at them a year or so ago, when they first came out. All metal, fast build, great speed. Trade-off is light weight makes them more kite like than a Supercub, and in turbulence. Rans style seating position is a personal taste thing, with legs stretched out instead of bent at the knee. Tube frame is small diameter tubing connected to monocoque tail section - it's a mix of cub and cessna but with no fabric.
    Overall I'm sure I would have been happy with one, just didn't connect well with the owners and had a hard time wrapping my head around a company that started with ultralights. As you might imagine I like really strong airframes.

    pb

    As it's a side by side, I wouldn't be surprised to see one show up in central NH at some point.
    RANS is not the first to start with Ultralights- Piper did too, with their famous series of J aircraft, of which some models are/were “ultralight”. In fact, in Canada, some J3s can be flown with an ultralight pilot permit. Strong airframes? The RANS S-7S has a strong airframe.

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    I wouldn't be surprised if one or both planes at Sanford will be flying by spring
    an interesting quirk I kicked around on the way home is both kits under construction are by folks who own planes that used to be mine. Sue with the Scout and George with the 8cc CarbonCub. Is this a sign Pete?
    jim

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    Farmboy's Avatar
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    I doubt for you Jim unless you change your mission. The only advantage the S-21 has over yours is speed for the distance. And you won’t want to give up the other CC attributes.

    On the other hand Rans has excelled in capturing a value segment of the market. Simple airplanes that all have good speed, lower entry cost and fast build times. The S-21 is very appealing to someone that wants to fly more than build, already knows how to use pull rivets so isn’t scared of the build complexity, and who’s mission statement involves a greater range (perhaps).

    On the other side of a similar coin is the undermarketed Bearhawk line. With their website turning away customers, little exposure, and some minimalist builds, it’s a wonder they sell any. But I see them as the current underdog to the value conscious new cub builder. Their Patrol and Companion models are fast, overbuilt (gross weight in utility cat) and can go everywhere 99% of us go in the lower 48 with a ton of baggage. They can be very nicely equipped for a reasonable price. The compromise is perhaps an older simpler design/style without modern curves and being overbuilt most will be a couple hundred lbs heavier than a similar Cub. Even so it fly’s within 5 mph of a cub on the low end, and within the 5 mph of the S-21 on the high end.


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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I have a friend here about to hang wings on an S21 with the 340. He is a meticulous builder and it will be a really nice airplane. I sent him the link to this thread as he has flown anther one.
    Steve Pierce

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    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoddyM View Post
    RANS is not the first to start with Ultralights- Piper did too, with their famous series of J aircraft, of which some models are/were “ultralight”. In fact, in Canada, some J3s can be flown with an ultralight pilot permit. Strong airframes? The RANS S-7S has a strong airframe.
    Roddy,
    I’m a believer in good engineering as an alternative to beef, and I believe Randy is onto something with the S-21 mission. He has entered that into a generational step in his model line. That said, the Rans lineup is undeniably more Kitfox than it is Supercub. And that’s where he wants it. He is not trying to compete with a cub. He has his own niche and he’s smart to stay the course.

    In one sense he and Bob Burrows are very similar. Both love the design aspect and are passionate about the validity of each. Neither enjoy questions about building one outside there design box. Both are essentially minimalists, striving for simplicity in the build and less-to-no frills for them personally. Not good or bad, just their own personality.

    The difference is Bob builds his with large tubing, thick wing skins and bucked rivets, and Randy builds his with thin skins and pulled rivets (not cherry-max). Randy loves and prefers the Rotax (and 2 strokes on some others) and Bob loves 520’s on his model 4 and 5.

    So you might see how Randy brought each design from his passion of ultralights. It has its place for sure.

    I was pretty committed to send them a deposit for an S-21 but as mentioned, getting frank answers was tough and there was absolutely no commitment on their end as to when they would produce a kit after I sent the check. Otherwise I might have been flying one right now.


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  9. #9
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I was pretty committed to send them a deposit for an S-21
    Me too, my bank account got in the way.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    I think Randy actually started with bicycles not ultralights?
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    courierguy's Avatar
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    Yup, bikes. No way that would ever transition in building airplanes, never been done before ! You'd think that after 30+ years of running a successful business, people would have caught on! Kidding of course....
    21 seems nice, but of no interest to me and other S7 fliers, though they are selling like hotcakes, I'll stick with tandem seating and 85 mph cruise.
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  12. #12
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    From what I see the S21 is appealing to the RV crowd who want more than something to get to a pancake breakfast fast. Probably start seeing them at Johnson Creek and other similar places. 150 mph and land short is very appealing.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers
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    A bit longer span version of the 21's metal wing on the 7 is of some interest to me though, and the idea has been kicked around by Randy some, but is way on the the back burner as Rans totally focuses on the 21. We 7 fliers are left sucking hind titty! One year out min. on a new 7 kit, I need to not screw mine up. I am happy for the 21's success, just not my thing.

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    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    A bit longer span version of the 21's metal wing on the 7 is of some interest to me though, and the idea has been kicked around by Randy some, but is way on the the back burner as Rans totally focuses on the 21. We 7 fliers are left sucking hind titty! One year out min. on a new 7 kit, I need to not screw mine up. I am happy for the 21's success, just not my thing.
    A 21 with 7/20 wingspan would be very attractive. Even more so would be a S-7S with a Rotax 915is

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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    A 21 with 7/20 wingspan would be very attractive. Even more so would be a S-7S with a Rotax 915is
    Even more so would be an S7 with a 300hp Yamaha Epex....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1934A View Post
    Even more so would be an S7 with a 300hp Yamaha Epex....
    Those Epex engines are intriguing, but 141/135HP on the tested Rotax would suit my needs just fine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    Those Epex engines are intriguing, but 141/135HP on the tested Rotax would suit my needs just fine
    I've always been a big fan of the Yamaha 4 stroke power plants, it'll be interesting to watch them evolve into aircraft engines in the next few years. I think lack of factory support will prevent them from taking over the market, but as far as dependability and power to weight, they can't be beat.

  18. #18
    mvivion's Avatar
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    It’d be interesting to see how that wing performs for short/soft field. It’s really pretty short. I understood why Randy shortened the wing, but.....

    MTV
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1934A View Post
    I've always been a big fan of the Yamaha 4 stroke power plants, it'll be interesting to watch them evolve into aircraft engines in the next few years. I think lack of factory support will prevent them from taking over the market, but as far as dependability and power to weight, they can't be beat.
    Apex. Yamaha doesn't make the 4 cylinder Apex anymore, do they? They still make the 3 cylinder Genesis. That's a great motor. Better than the Apex for most snowmachine applications, but not good enough to win the market. Yamaha is moving back to 2-strokes.

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    The last factory crate Apex motor got sold a few months ago, I believe. The Epex is the worked over version that Edge Performance builds.
    I hope the Genesis motor proves to be as reliable as the Apex has been. Time will tell, but knowing Yamaha's quality, I imagine they will be. I'm not sure Yamaha will ever go back to producing a 2-stroke snowmobile engine. As much as I hate to say it, I would bet that they abandon the sled business first....
    Check out the Yamaha aircraft conversions facebook group. Some interesting stuff on there.

  21. #21
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    My buddy nearly bought a REALLY nice S-21 last week with a Titan 180HP engine. It was kitted out perfectly too, but the 1800# GW messed it up as we are both Sport Pilots.

    Is the S-7 fuselage wide enough for the 915? I am surprised no one has done it yet

  22. #22
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    Pete
    did you fully price a 21 kit with titan 0340? I didnt look at that. I saw this one yesterday whilst waiting on the combines to move farms. That price point would buy a lot of Carbon
    cub, supercub or topcub. Hell, would be a lot of 180 or skylane. Its the age old question,how much is stuff worth.

    https://barnstormers.com/classified-...ml?catid=18956

    Jim

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Jim, that is not the kit, that is a flying, factory built airplane.
    Steve Pierce

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  24. #24
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Rans S-21 Outbound

    Jim, as Steve said - someone’s built aircraft. Might have been the first factory demo with the titan. The original demo built had the Rotax.

    I priced it six ways from Sunday and was planning to order the kit and hope to make enough money to buy an engine when ready. But like Steve between wallet size and communication breakdown it didn’t work out.
    Headed in a different direction still.


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    I got to fly the Titan powered S-21 last October and it was a hoot. So much fun! With that said, from the video footage, screenshots, and in talking to both owners of the 915 version that would be my choice. The problem is the factory no longer offers the 915 as an engine option in the SLSA.

    Ronnie Smith put a 915 on his S-7 and has been flying it for at least two years and has already been to Alaska with it. https://youtu.be/CUwa4_GHrpU

    Here is great footage of the S-21 with the 915 up front at 13:20. https://youtu.be/23oKp0oYk7s

    Although I love both of these aircraft, the Zlin Norden with a 915 up front is my dream STOL bird. It’s a work of art and relatively cheap which is refreshing in this current aviation market.
    Last edited by jetcat11; 10-29-2020 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Added video link

  26. #26
    Scouter's Avatar
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    FYI I got the quote from Rans this week


    Jim
    It would be all of the kits listed, plus any options you want. The Titan engine is $31,797.00 plus shipping.


    So: $82,736.00 for the kits plus the engine. You'd need to add in any options you'd want. Then, you will have paint and avionics to add in.


    This was done as a taildragger.


    I hope that helps!


    Thank you,

    Michele “Shelly” Schlitter
    Vice President | Sales Director

    kit and engine is 114500 ballpark with no options
    Plus paint and avionics and shipping

    $5000 today, wait is 1 year


    jim











  27. #27
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    That’s a huge price increase. My quotes on the kit was 37k. I figured I could end up about 80 all done. Times change.


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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouter View Post
    FYI I got the quote from Rans this week


    Jim
    It would be all of the kits listed, plus any options you want. The Titan engine is $31,797.00 plus shipping.


    So: $82,736.00 for the kits plus the engine. You'd need to add in any options you'd want. Then, you will have paint and avionics to add in.


    This was done as a taildragger.


    I hope that helps!


    Thank you,

    Michele “Shelly” Schlitter
    Vice President | Sales Director

    kit and engine is 114500 ballpark with no options
    Plus paint and avionics and shipping

    $5000 today, wait is 1 year


    jim










    And a lot of labor. Helping a friend hang the wings on his today.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  29. #29
    courierguy's Avatar
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    My biggest problem with the 21 is that my S-7S flies great and was paid for long ago. Every other kitplane I've built (5) I didn't have something to fly in the meantime so was super motivated to get it done ASAP. I had to sell the previous plane to get the scratch for the next one. Now that I could buy outright another kitplane without first having to sell the current one, I can't imagine spending the day in the shop, building, when it's a good flying day. It'd never get done! If I wrecked what I have now, I'd be more motivated. Also, all up, I have about 50 K in my 12 year old S-7S, a bargain!

  30. #30
    WWhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetcat11 View Post
    I got to fly the Titan powered S-21 last October and it was a hoot. So much fun! With that said, from the video footage, screenshots, and in talking to both owners of the 915 version that would be my choice. The problem is the factory no longer offers the 915 as an engine option in the SLSA.

    Ronnie Smith put a 915 on his S-7 and has been flying it for at least two years and has already been to Alaska with it. https://youtu.be/CUwa4_GHrpU

    Here is great footage of the S-21 with the 915 up front at 13:20. https://youtu.be/23oKp0oYk7s

    Although I love both of these aircraft, the Zlin Norden with a 915 up front is my dream STOL bird. It’s a work of art and relatively cheap which is refreshing in this current aviation market.

    I'd read the latest comments on ransclan about the 915 and it's installation before proceeding with mounting that engine on an S-21. JM2C

  31. #31
    JimParker256's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    My biggest problem with the 21 is that my S-7S flies great and was paid for long ago. Every other kitplane I've built (5) I didn't have something to fly in the meantime so was super motivated to get it done ASAP. I had to sell the previous plane to get the scratch for the next one. Now that I could buy outright another kitplane without first having to sell the current one, I can't imagine spending the day in the shop, building, when it's a good flying day. It'd never get done! If I wrecked what I have now, I'd be more motivated. Also, all up, I have about 50 K in my 12 year old S-7S, a bargain!
    That's how I wound up with an RANS S-6ES, as well... I'd love to build a RANS S-20 – I just like the look of it better than the S-21. But when I priced the kit and realized it would cost at least 2X what I would spend for an already flying S-6 that has almost identical specs, my choice became obvious. More time flying, less time in the shop. My wife it happy, because "shop time" now means I can build stuff for her... Win/win!
    Jim Parker
    2007 Rans S-6ES

  32. #32
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Hung wings yesterday.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Steve Pierce

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  33. #33
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WWhunter View Post
    I'd read the latest comments on ransclan about the 915 and it's installation before proceeding with mounting that engine on an S-21. JM2C
    I flew an S-21 with the 915 yesterday and it was amazing. We had 40+ gallons of fuel and 420 pounds of pilot/passenger and it climbed out of an airport with an elevation of 4500’ at over 1600 fpm

    Had cruise setting of 5200 rpm and it show IAS of 117 and a true of over 130 with a quartering headwind of 24 knots. That thing is a beast

  34. #34
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Hey Jim, just wanted to let you know they are testing the taller gear and it’s going well. I have a hard time seeing you in this but hey, people buy the NX cub too so if it works for you....

    Click image for larger version. 

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