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The Condor Cub is Sick

DJ

MEMBER
Bolivia
Well we have had kind of the perfect storm this week. It started with a routine oil change, metal in the filter and today I'm looking at what is left. One piston destroyed, Cam and followers shot, Crank below limits (it was M10), Case TBD and my head spinning from trying to pin down options.

Seems like we had a simultaneous piston pin plug failure and camshaft biting the dust since the last oil change. About 45 bronze flakes in the suction screen and a quarter teaspoon of course, sand-like metal in the filter. A mix of bronze, ferrous, bearing and you name it.

The cam probably started pitting years ago, should have pulled a jug at pre-buy. The engine has 750 SMOH by Aerotech in 2011. We have put 250 on it in the last three years. TTSN unknown. I'm super thankful it held together and we found it when we did otherwise a Cub recovery or worse could have been part of the story.

Here is what I know so far. New Lyc. Thunderbolt ~$30K but 6 month lead time! No Superior Kit engines available at present. ECI kit 75 day lead time. Overhaul at Aerosport north of $20K due to bad Crank. Everyone else reputable is way higher. Mission Maintenance Services in Ohio is offering to help with labor if we build back from our core with new crank, cam and cylinders for mid to high teens.

Please shoot back with ideas, contacts, accusations, a serviceable crank or fresh engine you may need to unload or anything else helpful.

Now for the eye candy.
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Try America's Best, Western Skyways, Barrett, etc and see if they build an engine from a stock core. I'd be surprised if they couldn't. There are lots of good engine shops to ask.
 
Thanks Stewart. Im checking into all those. Most have a big lead time right now. I actually found a way to get an engine shipped down for free if i can get it to TN by Wednesday next week. All Ive found in the O-360-C series are a couple cores at Wentworth.

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Barrett is right next door to Aircraft Specialties and a 1/4 mile away from Divco so they have resources in the neighborhood without shipping costs. Might be a good option https://www.bpaengines.com/ When you talk to Rhonda, tell her Kirby referred you.
 
I would not buy an engine unless it has the DLC coated tappets installed, else you are likely down this rabbit hole in another 10 years.

Tim
 
Supply chains are a mess right now. It is going to take time, if you rush it now it is my opinion that it will cost you in the long run.

Lycoming factory followers are the only ones that are DLC. I could only get hyperbolic lifters for the O-360 from Lycoming recently. Hyperbolic lifters will use a bit more oil pressure.
 
Good idea on American Champion. I missed their closing time today...oops.

Pierce what would be your strategy in a similar scenario?

I had a few people suggesting that i grab anything to get in the air till we can overhaul our core. Is that what you mean by costing in the long run?

At this point i felt like it would be stretching safety too far to run a 21 year old Wentworth helicopter rotor strike C2C without going through it.

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So what all is wrong with the engine besides the cam and lifters? IRAN, inspect and repair as necessary? I have replaced a couple of cams and lifters recently.
 
After a buttload if metal has run through it? A lot is wrong. The list of what's right will be short.

What have you found. I have one torn apart and just put another together.

My Dad's enine was a narrow deck 160 and the crankcase overhaule did not do the dowel mod to the crankcase last time so there was fretting. Sent the crankcase to Divco and had the dowel mod done, resurfaced, line bored and then sent to LyCon install the o'ring groove on the crankcase parting flange. New cam and lifters and overhauled hydraulic units. Everything else was good so we installed main bearings and reassembled.

The second one is an O-360 new in 2001 but had only accumulated 450 hours. Cam and lifters were shot. Crank gear and idler gears had rust and some pitting so those are being replaced. Cylinders got honed to take out some light rust and new guidess and valves from the cast iron guides rusting and pitting the valves. It will get reassembled with new mains.

Crank journals on both engines were fine. I guess it all depends on what you have and what you want. This is a 15-1600 hr engine that stuck a valve yesterday. It is coming off and going to LyCon for all the magic.
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I dont have any experience besides A&P school in engine building so im hesitant to build one here although that option is still on the table.

The case is fretted but has plenty of deck height for resurfacing and line boring. Other than that i have two or three good rods, gears, pushrods, rockers and sump that could keep going. Cylinders could be put back on with a re-hone and one valve rework and might go another 1000 hrs. They could be spares if we get new ones.

No overhaul shops down here worth mentioning so it is either send everthing north or buy new/exchange and build it here.

DJ



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I see what looks like pitting on the none bearing contact area of the crank?

New cylinders, send other parts out for overhaul and assemble the parts?
 
Yes the crank front main journal is pitted and the crank was M10 at the mains and M6 on the rod journals.
We could go budget and reuse cylinders and steel without overhauling, or get everything done and hope it is trouble free for 2000hrs+

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Surely there’s some decent engine shops in Brazil, or is import/export an issue among the countries down there? With the large ag market, I figure someone is turning wrenches on Lycoming’s with all the Pawnees running around.
 
Surely there’s some decent engine shops in Brazil, or is import/export an issue among the countries down there? With the large ag market, I figure someone is turning wrenches on Lycoming’s with all the Pawnees running around.
Yes, import and export are an issue. I don't know anyone in Brazil. I do know of one shop in Bolivia and wouldn't trust them at all. I've seen a pencil whipped overhaul they did on a Cub we looked at, not cool. Down here you have to know people well to trust them. Most will tell you what you want to hear and do what they please.

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I seem to remember from your talk that you have worked with other mission organizations, have you talked with them/
 
stewartb
As for metal in an engine? I figured you had to be joking.
My Dad and I were discussing his engine after the cam went south. Interesting things came out of that engine disassembly. It is an O-320 that we rebuilt. After finding ferrous metal in the filter he pulled the engine and brought it down to tear it down since I have more experience with Lycoming engines, and resources if something went wrong. My Dad was a hot rodder in the 50s, spent 20 years in the Navy in maintenance, got his degree in mechanical engineering and went to work for Cummins Engine Co in their rebuild division. He toured engine overhaul facilities all over the world, and worked in that industry 20 plus years. The point I am making is he is not new to engines and engine overhaul.

To the point of my question to Stewart. My Dad was concerned about metal contamination from the cam and lifter spalling. The soft bearing material is a good place for foreign metal to lodge. This will then start scoring the crankshaft. After inspecting his engine and the O-360 that I have in the shop with a spalded cam and lifters we determined that the oil filter in a Lycoming definitely does its job and we found no scoring in either engine after disassembly and inspection. Now I have seen engines destroyed from a catastrophic failure but we were pleasantly surprised with these.

So no, I was not joking but interested in other's experiences to increase my knowledge of other possible scenarios.
 
Steve, another excellent picture in post #12. I keep a bent 0-360 pushrod tube in the shop for show-and-tell regarding one more thing to look for on each pre-flight. It's amazing how many people look without really seeing.

Thanks. cubscout
 
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Steve
I had my cam go bad recently. Only 1300 or so on the engine so we just did the bottom end. I was running a screen not a filter. The same day we pulled my case apart another low time engine came in with the same issue bad cam/lifters it ran a spin on filter. My bearings where just as you described with lots of lodged metal. Sent everything down south and ended up having the crank turned down 3 thousandth on the main bearings if I remember correctly. The other engine bearings had no metal in them at all. I think a screen does a pretty good job of collecting any metal but it is very hard to get it all out of the housing when you clean the screen. I have a electronic oil temp so not a big deal to pull the screen housing out, even with it in my hand Flushing out any remaining metal was hard. Having been through this I don't see how anyone could get an old school housing/probe clean without pulling the temp probe out It has made me a convert to a spin on filter.
DENNY
 
How did the oil pump gears and housing look on these metal shedding engines? It seems that assembly would encounter the metal before the filter had a chance to capture it.

Gary
 
Good news! Aerotec Engines in Nova Scotia offered to sponsor us with a rebuild.

Question 1: Who has had cylinder cracking issues that can be attributed to the loss of material due to a port/polish job. That's the rumour...has anybody seen it?

Anyone have apples to apples comparison of what port/polish does for static rpm?

Question 2: What kind of static rpm gain can I expect going from 9.5:1 pistons up to 10:1 or 11:1? What about at altitude?

At 8,000 msl the cylinder pressures are a lot lower...9.5:1 pistons should generate around 102 psi (like 7:1 at sea level) and 11:1 about 118 psi (like 8:1 at sea level). This plane does less than 5% of its takeoffs below 8K and all of those would still be at a DA of at least 3K. I would be willing to limit MP to 25 inches for that 5% of our missions that are at low altitude if necessary for longevity, to see a meaningful performance gain above 8K.

We are currently based at SLCB @ 8360 msl and we are building a base at 11,200 ft to give an idea. Our average airstrip elevations are around 10K msl.

DJ

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