Results 1 to 28 of 28

Thread: The Condor Cub is Sick

  1. #1
    DJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bolivia
    Posts
    246
    Post Thanks / Like

    The Condor Cub is Sick

    Well we have had kind of the perfect storm this week. It started with a routine oil change, metal in the filter and today I'm looking at what is left. One piston destroyed, Cam and followers shot, Crank below limits (it was M10), Case TBD and my head spinning from trying to pin down options.

    Seems like we had a simultaneous piston pin plug failure and camshaft biting the dust since the last oil change. About 45 bronze flakes in the suction screen and a quarter teaspoon of course, sand-like metal in the filter. A mix of bronze, ferrous, bearing and you name it.

    The cam probably started pitting years ago, should have pulled a jug at pre-buy. The engine has 750 SMOH by Aerotech in 2011. We have put 250 on it in the last three years. TTSN unknown. I'm super thankful it held together and we found it when we did otherwise a Cub recovery or worse could have been part of the story.

    Here is what I know so far. New Lyc. Thunderbolt ~$30K but 6 month lead time! No Superior Kit engines available at present. ECI kit 75 day lead time. Overhaul at Aerosport north of $20K due to bad Crank. Everyone else reputable is way higher. Mission Maintenance Services in Ohio is offering to help with labor if we build back from our core with new crank, cam and cylinders for mid to high teens.

    Please shoot back with ideas, contacts, accusations, a serviceable crank or fresh engine you may need to unload or anything else helpful.

    Now for the eye candy.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.36.51 PM-2.jpeg 
Views:	113 
Size:	79.6 KB 
ID:	51530Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.36.51 PM.jpeg 
Views:	99 
Size:	23.9 KB 
ID:	51531Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.38.03 PM.jpeg 
Views:	113 
Size:	30.8 KB 
ID:	51532
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.24.39 PM.jpeg 
Views:	107 
Size:	24.4 KB 
ID:	51520   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.24.40 PM-2.jpeg 
Views:	109 
Size:	32.9 KB 
ID:	51521   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.24.40 PM-3.jpeg 
Views:	110 
Size:	38.3 KB 
ID:	51522   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.24.40 PM-4.jpeg 
Views:	117 
Size:	58.1 KB 
ID:	51523   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.24.40 PM-6.jpeg 
Views:	104 
Size:	49.6 KB 
ID:	51524  

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.24.41 PM-2.jpeg 
Views:	100 
Size:	39.3 KB 
ID:	51525   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.24.41 PM.jpeg 
Views:	109 
Size:	52.1 KB 
ID:	51526   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.24.40 PM.jpeg 
Views:	116 
Size:	20.2 KB 
ID:	51527   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.29.37 PM.jpeg 
Views:	128 
Size:	15.2 KB 
ID:	51528   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WhatsApp Image 2020-10-07 at 6.29.51 PM.jpeg 
Views:	126 
Size:	17.5 KB 
ID:	51529  

    Thanks 8GCBC, Pete Schoeninger thanked for this post

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    5,475
    Post Thanks / Like
    Try America's Best, Western Skyways, Barrett, etc and see if they build an engine from a stock core. I'd be surprised if they couldn't. There are lots of good engine shops to ask.

  3. #3
    DJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bolivia
    Posts
    246
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks Stewart. Im checking into all those. Most have a big lead time right now. I actually found a way to get an engine shipped down for free if i can get it to TN by Wednesday next week. All Ive found in the O-360-C series are a couple cores at Wentworth.

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Meanwhile,...
    Posts
    5,296
    Post Thanks / Like
    Barrett is right next door to Aircraft Specialties and a 1/4 mile away from Divco so they have resources in the neighborhood without shipping costs. Might be a good option https://www.bpaengines.com/ When you talk to Rhonda, tell her Kirby referred you.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    5,475
    Post Thanks / Like
    Maybe American Champion has an engine in stock? Don't Scouts use the 0-360C?
    Likes OLDCROWE liked this post

  6. #6
    behindpropellers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    6,820
    Post Thanks / Like
    I would not buy an engine unless it has the DLC coated tappets installed, else you are likely down this rabbit hole in another 10 years.

    Tim
    Likes flynlow liked this post

  7. #7
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    19,968
    Post Thanks / Like
    Supply chains are a mess right now. It is going to take time, if you rush it now it is my opinion that it will cost you in the long run.

    Lycoming factory followers are the only ones that are DLC. I could only get hyperbolic lifters for the O-360 from Lycoming recently. Hyperbolic lifters will use a bit more oil pressure.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    5,475
    Post Thanks / Like
    i thought all the new and factory overhauled Lycomings are using roller lifters?
    Likes windy liked this post

  9. #9
    DJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bolivia
    Posts
    246
    Post Thanks / Like
    Good idea on American Champion. I missed their closing time today...oops.

    Pierce what would be your strategy in a similar scenario?

    I had a few people suggesting that i grab anything to get in the air till we can overhaul our core. Is that what you mean by costing in the long run?

    At this point i felt like it would be stretching safety too far to run a 21 year old Wentworth helicopter rotor strike C2C without going through it.

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1

  10. #10
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    19,968
    Post Thanks / Like
    So what all is wrong with the engine besides the cam and lifters? IRAN, inspect and repair as necessary? I have replaced a couple of cams and lifters recently.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Thanks botto thanked for this post
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    5,475
    Post Thanks / Like
    After a buttload if metal has run through it? A lot is wrong. The list of what's right will be short.

  12. #12
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    19,968
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    After a buttload if metal has run through it? A lot is wrong. The list of what's right will be short.
    What have you found. I have one torn apart and just put another together.

    My Dad's enine was a narrow deck 160 and the crankcase overhaule did not do the dowel mod to the crankcase last time so there was fretting. Sent the crankcase to Divco and had the dowel mod done, resurfaced, line bored and then sent to LyCon install the o'ring groove on the crankcase parting flange. New cam and lifters and overhauled hydraulic units. Everything else was good so we installed main bearings and reassembled.

    The second one is an O-360 new in 2001 but had only accumulated 450 hours. Cam and lifters were shot. Crank gear and idler gears had rust and some pitting so those are being replaced. Cylinders got honed to take out some light rust and new guidess and valves from the cast iron guides rusting and pitting the valves. It will get reassembled with new mains.

    Crank journals on both engines were fine. I guess it all depends on what you have and what you want. This is a 15-1600 hr engine that stuck a valve yesterday. It is coming off and going to LyCon for all the magic.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	48772.jpg 
Views:	78 
Size:	96.1 KB 
ID:	51555
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    5,475
    Post Thanks / Like
    I’ve had two engines that ran metal through them. Pretty much everything needed machining or replacement.

  14. #14
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    19,968
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I’ve had two engines that ran metal through them. Pretty much everything needed machining or replacement.
    Cause of metal, what was damaged from the contaminants?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  15. #15
    DJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bolivia
    Posts
    246
    Post Thanks / Like
    I dont have any experience besides A&P school in engine building so im hesitant to build one here although that option is still on the table.

    The case is fretted but has plenty of deck height for resurfacing and line boring. Other than that i have two or three good rods, gears, pushrods, rockers and sump that could keep going. Cylinders could be put back on with a re-hone and one valve rework and might go another 1000 hrs. They could be spares if we get new ones.

    No overhaul shops down here worth mentioning so it is either send everthing north or buy new/exchange and build it here.

    DJ



    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  16. #16
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    19,968
    Post Thanks / Like
    I see what looks like pitting on the none bearing contact area of the crank?

    New cylinders, send other parts out for overhaul and assemble the parts?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Likes DENNY, Wingwrench, cub yellow liked this post

  17. #17
    DJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bolivia
    Posts
    246
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yes the crank front main journal is pitted and the crank was M10 at the mains and M6 on the rod journals.
    We could go budget and reuse cylinders and steel without overhauling, or get everything done and hope it is trouble free for 2000hrs+

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1

  18. #18
    CenterHillAg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Texas Coast
    Posts
    122
    Post Thanks / Like
    Surely there’s some decent engine shops in Brazil, or is import/export an issue among the countries down there? With the large ag market, I figure someone is turning wrenches on Lycoming’s with all the Pawnees running around.

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Lakeland, Fl
    Posts
    131
    Post Thanks / Like
    I used Gibson Aviation https://www.gibsonaviationok.com/ many years ago for everything from C-65 to IO-520. Parts came back ready to bolt together, yellow tagged and painted. Rebuilding a 4 cyl Lycoming isn't rocket science.
    Thanks barrow pilot thanked for this post

  20. #20
    DJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bolivia
    Posts
    246
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CenterHillAg View Post
    Surely there’s some decent engine shops in Brazil, or is import/export an issue among the countries down there? With the large ag market, I figure someone is turning wrenches on Lycoming’s with all the Pawnees running around.
    Yes, import and export are an issue. I don't know anyone in Brazil. I do know of one shop in Bolivia and wouldn't trust them at all. I've seen a pencil whipped overhaul they did on a Cub we looked at, not cool. Down here you have to know people well to trust them. Most will tell you what you want to hear and do what they please.

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    229
    Post Thanks / Like
    I seem to remember from your talk that you have worked with other mission organizations, have you talked with them/

  22. #22
    DJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bolivia
    Posts
    246
    Post Thanks / Like
    At this point I'm planning to have Mission Maintenance Service in Ohio do the rebuild and break-in at their repair station.

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1
    Likes DENNY liked this post

  23. #23
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    19,968
    Post Thanks / Like
    stewartb
    As for metal in an engine? I figured you had to be joking.
    My Dad and I were discussing his engine after the cam went south. Interesting things came out of that engine disassembly. It is an O-320 that we rebuilt. After finding ferrous metal in the filter he pulled the engine and brought it down to tear it down since I have more experience with Lycoming engines, and resources if something went wrong. My Dad was a hot rodder in the 50s, spent 20 years in the Navy in maintenance, got his degree in mechanical engineering and went to work for Cummins Engine Co in their rebuild division. He toured engine overhaul facilities all over the world, and worked in that industry 20 plus years. The point I am making is he is not new to engines and engine overhaul.

    To the point of my question to Stewart. My Dad was concerned about metal contamination from the cam and lifter spalling. The soft bearing material is a good place for foreign metal to lodge. This will then start scoring the crankshaft. After inspecting his engine and the O-360 that I have in the shop with a spalded cam and lifters we determined that the oil filter in a Lycoming definitely does its job and we found no scoring in either engine after disassembly and inspection. Now I have seen engines destroyed from a catastrophic failure but we were pleasantly surprised with these.

    So no, I was not joking but interested in other's experiences to increase my knowledge of other possible scenarios.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Likes Hardtailjohn, AkPA/18 liked this post

  24. #24

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,354
    Post Thanks / Like
    Steve, another excellent picture in post #12. I keep a bent 0-360 pushrod tube in the shop for show-and-tell regarding one more thing to look for on each pre-flight. It's amazing how many people look without really seeing.

    Thanks. cubscout
    Last edited by cubscout; 10-18-2020 at 09:51 AM. Reason: clarify which image

  25. #25

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,118
    Post Thanks / Like
    Steve
    I had my cam go bad recently. Only 1300 or so on the engine so we just did the bottom end. I was running a screen not a filter. The same day we pulled my case apart another low time engine came in with the same issue bad cam/lifters it ran a spin on filter. My bearings where just as you described with lots of lodged metal. Sent everything down south and ended up having the crank turned down 3 thousandth on the main bearings if I remember correctly. The other engine bearings had no metal in them at all. I think a screen does a pretty good job of collecting any metal but it is very hard to get it all out of the housing when you clean the screen. I have a electronic oil temp so not a big deal to pull the screen housing out, even with it in my hand Flushing out any remaining metal was hard. Having been through this I don't see how anyone could get an old school housing/probe clean without pulling the temp probe out It has made me a convert to a spin on filter.
    DENNY
    Thanks marcusofcotton thanked for this post
    Likes Steve Pierce liked this post

  26. #26
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    2,437
    Post Thanks / Like
    How did the oil pump gears and housing look on these metal shedding engines? It seems that assembly would encounter the metal before the filter had a chance to capture it.

    Gary

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,118
    Post Thanks / Like
    Oil pump and gears looked good on mine.
    DENNY
    Thanks BC12D-4-85 thanked for this post

  28. #28
    DJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bolivia
    Posts
    246
    Post Thanks / Like
    Pretty good considering.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20201007_111432.jpeg 
Views:	34 
Size:	43.2 KB 
ID:	51726

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1
    Thanks BC12D-4-85 thanked for this post

Similar Threads

  1. Lessons from the Condor Cub
    By DJ in forum The Art and Science of Flying
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 03-22-2020, 01:45 PM
  2. FS: Condor 6ply 800x6 tires and tubes $250
    By 1piece@atime in forum Parts and Pieces
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-31-2019, 08:18 PM
  3. Cloud Dancer must be working for Condor now.
    By ndill in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-31-2015, 08:37 PM
  4. Sick New S2
    By Pokette in forum Super Cub Sick Bay
    Replies: 174
    Last Post: 07-01-2011, 08:20 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •