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TK1 vs. Acme Aero (SEP 2020)

I asked you for the evidence on all these supposed gear failures, I got crickets. Then you link a 2015 thread on a Highlander accident. Sorry but I will look at evidence via Google but I will also do some real world research as you started doing here. Lots of people here running all of the shocks and I haven't heard anyone say one is defective. People tear $hit up, happens a lot. Some take responsibility, some blame. Seen it to much. I will go out and bang on any four of the systems that have been discussed here without even thinking about it. Actually I have no that I think about it. Here is a recent FX3 gear failure with AOSS. Blame the AOSS, nope, I saw the skid marks.

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Here is a Super Cub gear failure blamed by the ferry pilot and ferry company owner on the AOSS.
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Metallurgy report here doesn't jive with the story the ferry service owner tells. https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=483298&docketID=63759&mkey=100693

I guess I have been around this to long but you haven't convinced me through your research that there is a defective gear/shock system being produced and sold today out of the 4 options. Your airplane and your choice. I just don't buy it myself.
 

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I came out of the Hog too. I did not fly for ten years after the airlines. Owning my own plane is a huge deal. You can't just walk around and fly. I had no tailwheel time. I started with a Pa-18 and now fly a 180. You say you have a mechanical background. I have rebuilt two airplanes. I spent 8 hours in the past two days rewiring my 180 for new fuel sensors. Also fixed a prop leak. I have enjoyed it immensely. I have met a bunchload of friends. Steve will never steer you wrong. Just go with the flow.
hawgdrvr said:
Let me circle back to the beginning here in why I've asked questions along this line and another thread prior to this, I think it was about Beringer. A friend knowing I have a FX3 on order decided to research FX3 accidents and then SS accidents. There was a common thread to the FX3 accidents, gear failures but yes, it could have been pilot induced. I agree, accidents from years ago are older generation products and hopefully and certainly products have improved since. But the trend in the research drew concern and caused me to make a decision on what I should do with my FX3 hence this thread and the other learning about the landing gear options.

A few questions up, let me put this in another scenario: I'm building an experimental aircraft and I have a few choices in engines. If I learn there are 5 engine failures but in an engine that seems to be highly recommended, you bet I'm going to do research, ask questions, see what the company has to say about the incidents. Are we beyond this? Is it corrected? What was or is the corrective action?

Am I going to make a decision based on what the small community says to use and go blindly with that? Or do my homework and make my best educated decision. It's a heck of a lot of money for a repair so this decision is vital. It may not make everyone happy but we all have to choose. You may like brand X and someone else brand Y. Nothing wrong with discussing and educating in a positive friendly manner.

I've gone through a lot of time and research with the help of many here to vet the options. I made my decision, I'm hoping for the best for myself and others with these choices to avoid financially devastating situations. I also like to see when a company steps up to help when there is a problem, I didn't find much of that in this research other then replacement of failed products.

I'm used to trusting my maintenance unit and crew chief. Now that is all ME. That's scary! Decisions are critical.

By the way, I have an outstanding salesman from CubCrafters and I trust in his recommendations. I believe Acme is the best option of what CubCrafters has to offer. I wish they also offered TK1's but they don't.
Click to expand...
 
stewartb said:
I wonder why so few new guys ask questions here? Or old guys, for that matter.
Click to expand...
Do you feel like we are picking on people Stewart?

I often wonder why people state things as fact and then when asked for the evidence to back it up other than just because they say we get crickets.
 
Steve, I mentioned earlier in this thread it wasn't my info to share. Sure, I can go grab pictures but you've seen them. The story is all the same "the pilot stalled it X feet up". Wouldn't it be nice if the gear was strong enough for this plane to bounce off these huge balloon tires instead of pancaking? No, carrier landings are not approved. Yes, a lot of people with low time transition to these, things happen. My salesman offered me a FX3 that went back to Yakima as the ferry pilot ground looped it during delivery. Yes, I'm terrified of ground looping too. I had an outstanding instructor in NC that I went to for training. As a former instructor and evaluator myself I know what good training is and this guy did a great job. Highly recommended at South Oaks Aerodrome.

There is no need for attacking anyone. If you can't be kind especially in current times where everyone is so brutal then just don't post. I came here because I'm new to this type of flying and I have to make choices for my first aircraft purchase. I've been accused of over analyzing, so be it, I'll do my homework until I feel happy with my decision. I am VERY happy with my decision to go with TK1's and can't wait to buy them from Tony. I'd buy them today but I have 8 more months to endure in this waiting game.

Eddie, RVing really got me into the mod and fixing myself, as they say in the land of RV's (motorhomes) that if you can't fix it yourself you'll go broke trying. It's been a great experience and I hope to have the same joy with the plane. We'll see how things go. Community is a big part of this as was flying radio controlled planes growing up. Or going to the airport to hang out which was fun back in the 80's, these days airports are ghost towns. I didn't realize shocks were such a cult.

I'll say this again, thanks for those that offered support and information to help me better understand this situation of these accidents and parts involved. I have no second thoughts, my decision is made, I'm happy with it. I know to be extremely careful with landing any tailwheel airplane much less on pavement. I have great respect for how fast this can get out of control. I did get the opportunity to feel the start of a ground loop where my instructor took over, it was good to feel and see what that looks like. Great respect for this type of flying.

Thank you
 
I have a stupid question. How come there are far more CubCrafters accidents vs pipers or other exp cub type airplanes? Seems to me that the people who can afford them don’t for what ever reason get the dual they need.


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Steve Pierce said:
I asked you for the evidence on all these supposed gear failures, I got crickets. Then you link a 2015 thread on a Highlander accident. Sorry but I will look at evidence via Google but I will also do some real world research as you started doing here. Lots of people here running all of the shocks and I haven't heard anyone say one is defective. People tear $hit up, happens a lot. Some take responsibility, some blame. Seen it to much. I will go out and bang on any four of the systems that have been discussed here without even thinking about it. Actually I have no that I think about it. Here is a recent FX3 gear failure with AOSS. Blame the AOSS, nope, I saw the skid marks.

View attachment 51614

View attachment 51615

Here is a Super Cub gear failure blamed by the ferry pilot and ferry company owner on the AOSS.
View attachment 51616

View attachment 51617

Metallurgy report here doesn't jive with the story the ferry service owner tells. https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=483298&docketID=63759&mkey=100693

I guess I have been around this to long but you haven't convinced me through your research that there is a defective gear/shock system being produced and sold today out of the 4 options. Your airplane and your choice. I just don't buy it myself.
Click to expand...

Wow amazing destruction caused by the PILOT!!(passenger might be better description?)


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I guess I start wondering when you tell me about weak gear and all these issues when I work on these things for a living and fly them for fun. I see accidents and like someone posted they are like Bonanza's and Cirrus. You can build a helluva a gear but then they will bust a fuselage or something else. You have gotten some great feedback from some great pilots with a lot of experience a lot of whom I have gotten to fly with. I am sorry you took my comments as a personal attack. It was me trying to relay to you that my experience differs drastically from your research. I say it a lot, you can break an anvil. I am still looking for the defects. If you ask me about issues with said aircraft I could give you several examples, one of which I cussed and repaired today but I am still not seeing these gear issues.
 
I am middle aged, and don't have a problem asking questions here. Better be thought a special ed pilot/owner than go out and prove it. Besides, I find there are generally at least a few guys here that don't know the same things I don't know.

Listen to what these names have to say, in no particular order: Steve Pierce, mcs Mike, MTV, Gordon Mische, Denny, Raised by Wolves. Several others I cannot recall right now.
 
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tempdoug said:
so what number bungees did you have and whats the empty weight of your plane, every one groups all the bungees into bungees and most dont know the difference.
Click to expand...

Good question but I’m not sure I remember. 1080s maybe?

My empty Weight at that time on 31s was about 990. I’m a little heavier now with a pod and a couple other changes. 1015 or so.

I also had bungees on my previous -18.

Landing numbers are probably about equal Between bungees and AOSS with a couple thousand in each type. Acmes went on this spring so a lot fewer.
 
When you think you are the best pilot in the world like I am but you have no tailwheel time. Boy will you be humbled. Keep it going straight and you will be good. Stood my Cub on it's nose but have never groundlooped. If 180s don't count and you didn't break anything!


hawgdrvr said:
Steve, I mentioned earlier in this thread it wasn't my info to share. Sure, I can go grab pictures but you've seen them. The story is all the same "the pilot stalled it X feet up". Wouldn't it be nice if the gear was strong enough for this plane to bounce off these huge balloon tires instead of pancaking? No, carrier landings are not approved. Yes, a lot of people with low time transition to these, things happen. My salesman offered me a FX3 that went back to Yakima as the ferry pilot ground looped it during delivery. Yes, I'm terrified of ground looping too. I had an outstanding instructor in NC that I went to for training. As a former instructor and evaluator myself I know what good training is and this guy did a great job. Highly recommended at South Oaks Aerodrome.

There is no need for attacking anyone. If you can't be kind especially in current times where everyone is so brutal then just don't post. I came here because I'm new to this type of flying and I have to make choices for my first aircraft purchase. I've been accused of over analyzing, so be it, I'll do my homework until I feel happy with my decision. I am VERY happy with my decision to go with TK1's and can't wait to buy them from Tony. I'd buy them today but I have 8 more months to endure in this waiting game.

Eddie, RVing really got me into the mod and fixing myself, as they say in the land of RV's (motorhomes) that if you can't fix it yourself you'll go broke trying. It's been a great experience and I hope to have the same joy with the plane. We'll see how things go. Community is a big part of this as was flying radio controlled planes growing up. Or going to the airport to hang out which was fun back in the 80's, these days airports are ghost towns. I didn't realize shocks were such a cult.

I'll say this again, thanks for those that offered support and information to help me better understand this situation of these accidents and parts involved. I have no second thoughts, my decision is made, I'm happy with it. I know to be extremely careful with landing any tailwheel airplane much less on pavement. I have great respect for how fast this can get out of control. I did get the opportunity to feel the start of a ground loop where my instructor took over, it was good to feel and see what that looks like. Great respect for this type of flying.

Thank you
Click to expand...
 
Steve Pierce said:
I asked you for the evidence on all these supposed gear failures, I got crickets. Then you link a 2015 thread on a Highlander accident. Sorry but I will look at evidence via Google but I will also do some real world research as you started doing here. Lots of people here running all of the shocks and I haven't heard anyone say one is defective. People tear $hit up, happens a lot. Some take responsibility, some blame. Seen it to much. I will go out and bang on any four of the systems that have been discussed here without even thinking about it. Actually I have no that I think about it. Here is a recent FX3 gear failure with AOSS. Blame the AOSS, nope, I saw the skid marks.

View attachment 51614

View attachment 51615

Here is a Super Cub gear failure blamed by the ferry pilot and ferry company owner on the AOSS.
View attachment 51616

View attachment 51617

Metallurgy report here doesn't jive with the story the ferry service owner tells. https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=483298&docketID=63759&mkey=100693

I guess I have been around this to long but you haven't convinced me through your research that there is a defective gear/shock system being produced and sold today out of the 4 options. Your airplane and your choice. I just don't buy it myself.
Click to expand...

I can’t think of seeing a cabane v destroyed like that from side load like that. Usually it rips the ears off the gear fittings... that was some wild side loading leading up to that one!!!! Definitely pilot error!!!


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mike mcs repair said:
I can’t think of seeing a cabane v destroyed like that from side load like that. Usually it rips the ears off the gear fittings... that was some wild side loading leading up to that one!!!! Definitely pilot error!!!


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Click to expand...
The owner of the ferry company interupted me 3 times after I listene to her story and tried to explain to her what I saw. I finally hung up on her. She blocked me on FB when I sent her the metalurgy report and then texted me not long ago wanting to call me with a rigging question when she got her own Cub flying. I am slowly becoming one of those grumpy old mechanics I learned so much from years ago.
 
Hawgdrvr, remember it’s just an airplane. Don’t be intimidated by the tail wheel/ground loop stories. I learned in a tailwheel (as did everyone at one time). Respect it, get real instruction from a competent tailwheel instructor, know your limits, fly it from the time you untie it till it’s tied back down. I seriously doubt you’ll stall it from 10 feet or higher. And just for the record, everything I say is just my opinion. As I’ve said on other threads recently, everyone has something to offer (good or bad). Just scroll past what doesn’t work for you. I look forward to hearing how things go for you..... and oh ya, thread drift happens! It’s just like a conversation. Scrolling works for that too!
 
Steve Pierce said:
The owner of the ferry company interupted me 3 times after I listene to her story and tried to explain to her what I saw. I finally hung up on her. She blocked me on FB when I sent her the metalurgy report and then texted me not long ago wanting to call me with a rigging question when she got her own Cub flying. I am slowly becoming one of those grumpy old mechanics I learned so much from years ago.
Click to expand...

My favorite Steve pierceism
“Askhole”


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What took you so long!
Steve Pierce said:
The owner of the ferry company interupted me 3 times after I listene to her story and tried to explain to her what I saw. I finally hung up on her. She blocked me on FB when I sent her the metalurgy report and then texted me not long ago wanting to call me with a rigging question when she got her own Cub flying. I am slowly becoming one of those grumpy old mechanics I learned so much from years ago.
Click to expand...
 
This is a tangent but regarding asking questions....

This forum is the nicest and most informed and experienced group I’ve ever found.

If you post a question or problem, the questions asked are directly related to diagnosing the problem, or providing the best answer.

Other forums, or FB, is full of people replying to hear themselves talk. Unrelated, or “this different issue happened to me so I’m sure it’s your problem too”. Just stupid responses.

Similar to some GA Forums, I see conflict arisen when a question is posted in the form of “I think this is better, because the FB propaganda told me so”. It’s as if they are asking a question to justify their position or viewpoint. Pretty much like politics at that point.

Case in point. Person knew enough to come look at the SuperCub.Org forum for answers to their question. Yet Finding multiple threads related to the topic, they went to Facebook and posted the question, in multiple forums. As if most pilots following the taildraggers page isn’t also following the big tires Stol page. And a million people gave answers, misinformation, unrelated spam, and just essentially confused anyone looking for good honest info. When I asked why they didn’t simply ask the question here they said “the threads where old”. Lol. I disagree. I don’t believe they wanted answer. They wanted justification for their choice.


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I just want to say thank you to Pierce and others for being quick to share real world experience on this forum with those who want to know. Stick around here long enough and its easy to recognize who can most often back up an opinion with data and first hand experience.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
I think Benerger gear would be the best if you plan to do a high altitude stall. Go look at the 2019 Valdez video. As far as accidents I don't think the Cub Crafters planes have any huge market share.
DENNY
 
Wow! This has been a good one! I learned to fly in an Aeronca Chief nearly 50 yrs. ago. I didn't know the difference in handling until I flew the Cherokee the first time and drug the tail skid. I soloed the Chief in 8 hrs. and have been at it ever since. Champs, Chiefs, T-Crafts,J-3's, Smith Mini, 180, 140, bird dog, etc, etc.. If a person is truly terrified of ground looping, they should probably just stay in the trikes because the fear will hinder their learning in my opinion. However, in regards to the question, My exp. s.cub is worth something north of $100 thousand. I don't have money: It has taken me 25 yrs to get this much money into it. I don't carry insurance, and if I ding it I am out that's all. I use the TK-1s and like them but would have no qualms whatever in putting any of the mentioned suspensions on my buggy and flying the hell out of it. I can drive a Ford or a Chevy or a Dodge. I don't care as long as it doesn't dollar me to death. I believe these are all great suspensions. Take your pick and have fun with it. These discussions are great, but I think the brand specific mind set is out of line as far as safety in your cub goes. It all about the stick and rudder, and very good pilots who think they can just get into one of these ships and fly away are getting surprised regularly. My opinion agrees with others that these are pilot error incidents.
 
Best demonstration of how to handle a tail dragger I've ever heard: go to your grocery store, load up a cart with canned items or beer, turn it around backwards, fixed wheels in front, swivel wheels behind. Push it fast as possible down an empty aisle and note the lack of automatic straight ahead line tracking UNLESS you keep it going straight within a certain range by numerous small control movements. Compare this action to a normally loaded cart pushed in the normal fashion, that right there is why grocery carts aren't tail draggers. I still practice this in a tight situation, crowded aisles/people in the way, sometimes flipping the cart around backwards gives me more maneuverability, little do the other shoppers realize it is an aviation principle being demonstrated right in front of them, all they see is some yahoo who doesn't know which way the cart is supposed to go. I'm still working on why the Lowes lumber carts are so damned unstable.
 
so when you pros watch all these landings, what air pressure are they running,is it right or is it off and havent leaked, bungees-what bungees are they running, if not worn out or the wrong ones, hydrosorbs do eventally loose there shock ability also, seems to me aoss would be the consistent ones. just askin? how long before the discs in those start to loose effectiveness? these air shocks if your going to drop it in more air pressure if not dropping it in not so much, how do you know what your situation will be? does 10 lbs pressure make a lot of difference in them? i would think longevity and simpleness should be a big factor also. at 3 grand plus hmmm. everyone seems to think 2 landings how about after 2000 how are they working? people with unlimited cash, are able to keep putting new on others not so much. talk down the road some also. seen bungees and hydrosorbs go for years, no i dont know the number of landings, but still working, with a fair amount of use.
 
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The nice thing about acmes is if the air and oil all leak out, there is still a spring inside that will get you home. They don’t leak enough to be un airworthy


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Wow, 3 pages and counting.

As a newbie to TW's and Cub's I find this site to be a group of very knowledgeable and no BS people (my kind of people). I have learned immensely from this group and they have helped with problems I have had.

And I fly Acmes up from and a T3 in the back (just a comment to keep the thread drift to a minimum).
 
aeroaddict said:
...and no BS people (my kind of people). ...
Click to expand...

Hang around a while longer, you will find the BS part :), but largely you are right. Folks also did a pretty good job of keeping things civil in this thread, which I appreciate.

sj (still running bungees.... )
 
cubdriver2 said:
What ever system you put up front it won't be complete till you add a T3

Glenn
Click to expand...

I am ordering a T3 when I order the TK1's.

And I agree, with my little TW experience so my comments are meaningless, I don't see what's wrong with bungees if the airplane is landed properly (speeds, etc.). I hope to fly my first 20 hours of the EAB fly off on the bungees before installing TK1's and T3 tailwheel so I can appreciate them.
 
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