skukum12
MEMBER
The Last Frontier
Oy Vey.
Auto land, AOA indicators, ADSB.....Let's just replace the pilot with a computer. Better yet, just s&&t can aviation altogether
Beringer ALG vs. Acme Aero for FX3
- Thread starter hawgdrvr
- Start date
Oy Vey.
Auto land, AOA indicators, ADSB.....Let's just replace the pilot with a computer. Better yet, just s&&t can aviation altogether
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
:smile: :smile: :smile: I broke my anvil, its the hammers fault.
AkPA/18
MEMBER
Big Lake Ak
Out of 91 Carbon Cub FX-3's in the FAA database, 11 have made it to the NTSB reports web site in 2.5 years of operation. Here is the bottom line from the NTSB.
8 landing ground loop / loss of control1 takeoff loss of control
7 on paved RWY’s
2 on dirt/grass RWY’s
1 engine out
6 gear collapses
No injuries
Sure seems like there is a problem somewhere. 10% of the fleet wrecking on runways in in 2.5 yrs.
Do Supercubs have this problem also?
8 landing ground loop / loss of control1 takeoff loss of control
7 on paved RWY’s
2 on dirt/grass RWY’s
1 engine out
6 gear collapses
No injuries
Sure seems like there is a problem somewhere. 10% of the fleet wrecking on runways in in 2.5 yrs.
Do Supercubs have this problem also?
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
I am sorry but from my experience a lot of people who can afford these $300K plus Super Cubs have a different mindset. They are not ones to train to get the skills or to take the time to bet proficient at the craft. I am not saying all but a good part. They remind me of warbird owners 20 years ago. There is a ferry pilot who delivers the airplane and picks it up. They don't want to talk about what you found or fixed. Just want the bill and go on. I prefer the personal relationships with SuperCub owners myself.
As far as the Berringer gear, I remember Greg Simmons on the edge at the Hondo STOL contest and that thing touching on one side and wallowing around. Every thing has a limit, know what they are and stay away from it. I have been pretty close and was amazed not to have found it.
As far as the Berringer gear, I remember Greg Simmons on the edge at the Hondo STOL contest and that thing touching on one side and wallowing around. Every thing has a limit, know what they are and stay away from it. I have been pretty close and was amazed not to have found it.
Last edited:
Putting spring gear on a cub is not a new ideal. I had one outside my hanger several years ago (I will see if I can find pics) Reported to be about 15 mph faster with the gear if I remember right. Not a bad mod if you want speed. However not a mod to makeup for poor skills. If spring gear was so great we would never have to repair a Cessna after a ground loop, just saying!!
DENNY
EDIT:
FOUND THEM.
DENNY
EDIT:
FOUND THEM.
Attachments
Last edited:
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
You need to study less and go get some training before you just bend that new plane. Listen to what others said above. Don’t let it land. Slow down.
Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Mauleguy
MEMBER
This place does not have much good area for parking without walking a mile. I have parked my airplane in that exact spot for a morning of fishing up Lower Loon. I pushed it all the way back to the fence. Did not think much about the guy that is taking off and can't keep it going straight. I am insured so go ahead and run into my airplane:smile:
behindpropellers
Registered User
NE Ohio
I can't keep up with all the old sayings, but I do have a fair amount of data the collaborates the CubCrafter position.
CubCrafters very clearly stated the legacy gear was the problem in 2017. I took their position seriously.
Out of 91 Carbon Cub FX-3's in the FAA database, 11 have made it to the NTSB reports web site in 2.5 years of operation. Here is the bottom line from the NTSB.
8 landing ground loop / loss of control1 takeoff loss of control
7 on paved RWY’s
2 on dirt/grass RWY’s
1 engine out
6 gear collapses
No injuries
So I think CubCrafters got it right in 2017 when they moved to the new XCub aluminum spring gear. For all the cubs running on the old legacy gear there needs to be a solution. However, there are very few choices. Changing shock absorbers between the axle and the V cabane does not work and may actually make the problems worse depending on type.
Here is the only FX-3 landing accident in the NTSB database with a partial failure of the legacy cub gear. This one was on pavement too. This aircraft had wing damage but not damage to the prop and engine. If the gear all failed like this it would be a different matter. But they don't normally fail in this manner.
35" Tire. Land sideways. Lots of bending moment going on. My guess: if it had 8:50s and you landed it sideways it would chirp and start to skid. The 35 has a lot more surface area on the ground so your load due to friction is huge.
From reading the other threads: Once you fly the newer style of shocks you probably need to learn how to land again when it comes time to jump to a C-180.
Tim
RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
Ask Steve want a 35 can do down a hill. Just bent an axle. Didn’t fold up the gear
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Crash Jr.
Registered User
Anchorage, AK
That's where I'm at on the Beringer gear. Great idea for ideal conditions but too wallowy for use with gusting crosswinds or a turning takeoff or landing like on a beach. Seems a lot like Citabria oleo gear where it can really start to walk around unless you really plant the plane on the gear and load the shocks up. Seems like that's why people prefer the ACME shocks is because they retain the stable ground handling of the stock cub gear but with the next level of ability to take big hits.
No direct experience flying the Beringer gear though and they have made huge improvements in the valving. I've flown with a guy that has the Beringer gear and it's incredible how you can just smash into the ground and the gear eats it up. I'd hesitate to say it takes a sideload better than stock gear however. The gear legs themselves might take it but the load always goes somewhere and the gear fittings and fuselage are all the same.
turbopilot
Registered User
I have been flying Beringer ALG on a CC SS since 2017 when they first came out. You are right, version 1 had valving problems that is totally fixed in version 3 (current shipping version). There were only a few sets of version 1 struts in the US to the best of my knowledge. I have had all three versions on my SS. Beringer replaced the struts twice as they improved them. I have never tried side loading my gear on purpose or by mistake.
Beringer ALG adds a hefty doubler on the V cabana, so in combination with the big axle to cabane strut the Beringer ALG should be very tolerate of heavy side loads. This is the Beringer V cabane doubler. With this design the V cabane can actually fail and the gear should stay together.
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
Beringer ALG adds a hefty doubler on the V cabana, so in combination with the big axle to cabane strut the Beringer ALG should be very tolerate of heavy side loads. This is the Beringer V cabane doubler. With this design the V cabane can actually fail and the gear should stay together.
The doubler looks impressive. I've never seen struts attached to the cabane like that. What do they connect to? I did a quick search on Beringer gear and didn't see that in other images.
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
I think I answered my question finding a French aviation magazine:
https://www.aviation-pilote.com/2016/07/15/lalg-de-beringer-sur-pa-18/
https://www.aviation-pilote.com/2016/07/15/lalg-de-beringer-sur-pa-18/
turbopilot
Registered User
Here is the back side of the V cabane:
The attachment of the V cabane strut to the axle:
The view head on:
And the Beringer ALIR braking system:
And the entire system is 5 lbs lighter than the original legacy cub gear with AOSS.
turbopilot
Registered User
This is the full Beringer ALG Carbon Cub landing gear and brake system replacement kit. $10,600.
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
Gulp....
It all looks very beautiful, especially compared to my torch-welded gear I put together last Fall.
turbopilot
Registered User
After flying two Carbon Cub SS's for 7 years with legacy cub gear and AOSS, the ground handling is outstanding. It takes a few hours to get the feel. Biggest difference taxiing is that the nose angle of attack will rise about 3 degrees on the struts once the air over the wings is more than 10 mph. My SS is only 955 empty. So the struts are over kill built to support up to 2,500 lbs. Rarely a bounce higher than a few inches no mater how hard I drop it in. All CNC machined aluminum. An engineering work of art.
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
I would like to fly the Beringer to compare. I don't agree with the legacy gear is the issue with all the noted accidents but always like to try new things.
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
I get a total of $8800 for Airframes gear w/cabane vee, AOSS shock stuts, ABI wheels and brakes, Dakota Cub brake master cylinders and Atlee Dodge safety cables. Doesn't seem so out of line to me.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
It looks as those short struts are used to oppose the torque when the brakes are applied.
Farmboy
MEMBER
Middlebury, VT
>>>>>CubCrafters very clearly stated the legacy gear was the problem in 2017. I took their position seriously.<<<<<<
I don’t read it that way. CubCrafters isn’t saying that the legacy gear is a problem. In themarketing of the xcub, they state that if you exceed the design loads the traditional gear fails completely. This is because it’s worked designed to work together, not separately. That’s how you get a strong assembly from light parts.
But that aside, CC needed the XCub to be fast. Legacy gear is a straight up drag inducing assembly. They used spring gear for speed.
Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
I don’t read it that way. CubCrafters isn’t saying that the legacy gear is a problem. In themarketing of the xcub, they state that if you exceed the design loads the traditional gear fails completely. This is because it’s worked designed to work together, not separately. That’s how you get a strong assembly from light parts.
But that aside, CC needed the XCub to be fast. Legacy gear is a straight up drag inducing assembly. They used spring gear for speed.
Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
turbopilot
Registered User
A typical gear collapse in an FX with prop damage, engine teardown and one or two wings damaged can run north of $60k. Insurance is getting impossible to get. Just got a quotes on a new SS. I have 10 years of experience in tail draggers and no accident. 2 bids. One would only insure 2/3 of hull value for about twice what I have been paying. The other want 4X the hull rate to insure it fully. The insurance market is nuts and getting worse for many reasons but the losses they are seeing with the cub gear collapses in recent model airplanes is not helping. New pilots with no tail dragger experience are having a hard time finding insurance, so this issue hitting the resale market.
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
I do not believe they are gear failures, I believe they are pilot failures. I can build an airplane that the gear won't fail, that doesn't fix the nut behind the wheel. If you believe the Beringer gear is the cats ass and so much better than the legacy set up that is all that matters. Maybe it will be proven that nobody with Beringer gear screws the pooch and fails the gear and it will be the new standard. I have been banging these things around for 25 years and the only gear I have failed was catching a sand dune with my Clipper gear on 700x6 tires which has a .035" wall rear tube. Did the gear fail? Yes it did. Was it the right tool for the job? No it wasn't. Only you can figure out what tools you need. My tools have been working just fine for me. I don't believe the sky is falling.
turbopilot
Registered User
This is what Cubcrafters said in 2017. I don't see how you can read it any other way. Long stretch to say this problem is a design feature. I give CubCrafters credit for telling the truth. In 2017 nearly all production was on legacy-type gear. Obviously they were trying to sell the XCub but the statement is true.
"One weakness of the legacy-type gear on a Cub is that when a landing load reaches the limit of the suspension, the gear will often fail completely, or the excess landing load will be transferred into the airframe causing damage. In either case, it will be difficult and expensive to repair."
Just to put a number on it, something like 6-12k to insure a new SS?
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
The FX3 that I recently repaired after a ground loop accident did not get the prop. He folded one gear, took out both shock struts, the wing and skinned the elevator. From seeing what happened I can't imagine anything not failing. Momentum gets dissipated somewhere.
Last edited:
turbopilot
Registered User
For $280k hull the range was $4k for 2/3 of hull value up to $9k for full hull coverage. I have been paying $2k for an 2014 SS. 500 hrs in type, no accidents, 3,000 TT, instrument rating. The broker said losses in these off road airplanes are driving underwriters higher. New tail dragger pilots are having a hard time getting any coverage.
Does not help that 12% of the brand new, very expensive FX-3 fleet has been involved in an NTSB reportable event since 2017. And the majority of those accidents involved complete gear collapse. By the way not all the FX-3 events have been NTSB reportable and/or reported to the NTSB. I know of several others just locally repaired. So the insurance companies are seeing a bigger picture that is reflected in the NTSB reports.
Last edited:
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
and how many haven't been reported?
