Beringer ALG vs. Acme Aero for FX3

[mike mcs repair]

next up for them... finding rudders with stronger tops for when they flip them......

[Steve Pierce]

Apparently you lost interest and buried the headline in the review of the CC19 NTSB Accident reports. Could it be because thus far the NTSB reports underscores the point I was trying to make in all the dialog above? So here is the summary of the 6 reported XCub NTSB accidents. As we know there were probably more not reported to NTSB.

Bottom line there were 6 NTSB reports. One was fuel exhaustion and 5 were ground loops. Of the 5 ground loops, 2 involve partial right main gear collapse. There were no total gear collapses reported. There were no reports of prop or engine damage. This profile is entirely different than the reports involving the cub legacy gear equipped FX-3 aircraft where collapse of the legacy cub gear was the rule, not the exception.

So experience to date completely supports the assertions made by Brad Damm at CubCrafters in 2017 and the point I have been trying to make in this thread. Legacy gear cub tend to totally collapse when stressed beyond normal operating limits. So far XCub aircraft experience partial gear collapse which appears to spare the $12,500 Hartzell composite prop and save the engine from a teardown as well as other aircraft damage associated with total gear collapse.

N97LL - Right ground loop, left wing damage, no gear collapse, no engine/prop damage
N70DD - Fuel exhaustion
N82XX - Left Ground loop, right wing damage, right main gear collapse, no mention of engine/prop damage
N711XC - Left Ground loop, right wing and aileron damage, no gear collapse, no engine/prop damage
N53XC - Right Ground loop, left wing and aileron damage, no gear collapse, no engine/prop damage
N533AL - Left Ground loop, right aileron and empennage damage, right main gear collapse, no engine/prop damage

12 hour day but the airplane is on its way at first light so it was a good day. Looks like it has been lively here today.
To your comment:
Yep, I guess I assumed if the wing hit the ground the gear was damaged. The groundlooped X Cub I saw didn't collapse the gear but it broke the axle off and bent the tail pretty good. The FX3 with legacy gear I picked up off the runway and posted the pictures of didn't get the prop either.

I guess it is all priorities. I don't choose my landing gear based on what it does when somebody can't keep it straight down the runway, so far that hasn't been an issue for me.

[Rob]

It is my opinion that neither religion, nor politics shall be the end of the earth.... I suspect it will more likely be statistics and semantics. Because it is regularly proven that you can skew either to screw the other....

I have absolutely no hard data to confirm or deny anything related to this thread, but as I read through it a few years of interaction with a close friend comes to mind.

This gentleman was looking for a place to practice flying about 8 or 9 years ago. He reached out through the net, and since winter flying where he was from was kind of a PITA, he was looking towards somewhere warm and out of the way. I have no idea what precipitated the discussion, but somewhere along the way he found himself heading towards our place, and I (not the most social critter) had myself wondering what we were in for .

Turns out he wanted to brush up on his landing skills, in practice for some kind of STOL event.... Oh boy.... not another one of these weekend wannabe, you tube disasters I hoped... I don't really mean that as condescending as it sounds, but winters are my time to make hay, and while I would most certainly answer the call if someone hit the SOS button, doing it for a foreseeable event wasn't high on my bucket list.

So the dude shows up, and is hell bent on whooping up on this STOL thing.... oh boy... we got a live one here..lol.... airplane is in the trailer, and it probably took him and his wonderful wife a whopping 30 minutes to have the cute little thing unzipped and snapped together. Great.... going to show the world, AND a snap together airplane

...And then he started to shoot circuits...

Now I gotta tell you, when I'm running hard, I average a take off and landing every 18 minutes, so while they may not be pretty, I have a clue as to what pretty should look like. And I gotta say, I have no idea why he just drove 3000 miles to practice landing? I mean, this dude could fly, but more importantly, he knew what a proper landing should start with, end with and everything in between. He just gets it. I think he shot 3000 landings to a full stop that winter. Why? because he knew that just like your airspeed indicator can't tell the difference between 18mph and 19mph, neither can the average stick determine the differences between a good approach, and a stellar one, but those differences are real and they are there. Side load the gear? are you shizzing me? we're discussing how to fix a gear leg problem because you side loaded it?

Why am I babbling? here's why; I am absolutely certain that the above gentleman could get in his cub right now, your cub, anyone's cub. And barring a complete mechanical or meteorological anomaly, it would be simply impossible for him to ground loop. Theoretically, yes, likely? I'd say the odds would be in the neighborhood of 1 in a million.

Why? because he would at any moment be able to tell you (within 6 or 8 inches) where he will touch his first wheel down, which one will lead, where it will track, how fast it will roll and how far it will go. And no, he's not magic, nor alone. He's just well practiced. VERY well practiced.

Why should this matter to you? simple, buy the super duper xyzzy shock, long travel, titanium whizz bucket .... yep it might help your mega cub. but at the end of the day, his approach, (one I hope to emulate well) will help every plane he intends to land.

FWIW, the gentleman I'm thinking of as I write this, has some very innovative birds, with cool shocks and landing gear, but could land a J3 with a gear leg whittled out of bamboo in places most of todays you tube wonders would like to build a whole 'I wrecked it and survived' series on. All the cool toys in the world aren't going to fix that....


Take care, Rob

[Skywalker]

My first instructor told me to push the stick forward once you know you're going to flip. "Then you only have to rebuild the vertical, not the whole tail". First lesson. I wonder how many instructors tell the truth to people who've only seen success.

[skywagon8a]

My first instructor told me to push the stick forward once you know you're going to flip. "Then you only have to rebuild the vertical, not the whole tail". First lesson. I wonder how many instructors tell the truth to people who've only seen success.

You'll have to explain that in more detail. Does pushing the stick forward cause the tail to hit softer or harder? Did your instructor also tell you to get your heavy feet off the brakes?

[mam90]

I posted a link to a story about the Bonanza issues early on. They also talk about the Cirrus. There are also SFAR’s for the R22 and the MU-2. All of these related to higher than normal accidents, and all were addressed by training. Cubcrafters has done a wonderful job of delivering a product and at the same time helping to develop and expand the new hobby (notice I didn’t say sport) of backcountry flying/STOL competitions. But, not all of the people with the money have the experience and/or training to jump right in and go. And, the accidents that have been discussed are on runways, not off airport uneven, rough surfaces. Easier to control the fate of your product by trying to make it pilot proof than to assure everyone jumping into one is properly qualified. Here’s a quote from the article I linked:

“And as you know, in general aviation aircraft, there are often going to be people who are flying airplanes for which they are not properly trained or they try to fly them in an environment for which it is not certified and capable of withstanding.

[tempdoug]

Apparently you lost interest and buried the headline in the review of the CC19 NTSB Accident reports. Could it be because thus far the NTSB reports underscores the point I was trying to make in all the dialog above? So here is the summary of the 6 reported XCub NTSB accidents. As we know there were probably more not reported to NTSB.

Bottom line there were 6 NTSB reports. One was fuel exhaustion and 5 were ground loops. Of the 5 ground loops, 2 involve partial right main gear collapse. There were no total gear collapses reported. There were no reports of prop or engine damage. This profile is entirely different than the reports involving the cub legacy gear equipped FX-3 aircraft where collapse of the legacy cub gear was the rule, not the exception.

So experience to date completely supports the assertions made by Brad Damm at CubCrafters in 2017 and the point I have been trying to make in this thread. Legacy gear cub tend to totally collapse when stressed beyond normal operating limits. So far XCub aircraft experience partial gear collapse which appears to spare the $12,500 Hartzell composite prop and save the engine from a teardown as well as other aircraft damage associated with total gear collapse.

N97LL - Right ground loop, left wing damage, no gear collapse, no engine/prop damage
N70DD - Fuel exhaustion
N82XX - Left Ground loop, right wing damage, right main gear collapse, no mention of engine/prop damage
N711XC - Left Ground loop, right wing and aileron damage, no gear collapse, no engine/prop damage
N53XC - Right Ground loop, left wing and aileron damage, no gear collapse, no engine/prop damage
N533AL - Left Ground loop, right aileron and empennage damage, right main gear collapse, no engine/prop damage

sortve looks like when you buy one, your hoping it will take you for an airplane ride.

[aeroaddict]

"Those CC airplanes sound like pieces of sheet. The data suggests they turn average pilots into Fuktards. Why would a guy buy one?"

Well I whish I would have known this before spending 3 years to build a plane (EX-2) that flies incredible and comes with the HD 3X3 death gear.

[tempdoug]

"Those CC airplanes sound like pieces of sheet. The data suggests they turn average pilots into Fuktards. Why would a guy buy one?"

Well I whish I would have known this before spending 3 years to build a plane that flies incredible and comes with the HD 3X3 death gear.

i had a 1996 dodge 3/4 ton pickup that had the death wobble, i know where your coming from. you were along for the ride until you got stopped.

[skukum12]

i had a 1996 dodge 3/4 ton pickup that had the death wobble, i know where your coming from. you were along for the ride until you got stopped.

"Death Wobble," I had a skateboard like that.

[S2D]

i had a 1996 dodge 3/4 ton pickup that had the death wobble, i know where your coming from. you were along for the ride until you got stopped.

Needed new tires.
Common problem on those Dodges especially with a bale bed.
Had the same problem put new parts in the front end and took them out in 50 miles .finally one of my pilots told me they fought that for a couple years with one of their pickups till they changed tires so we just swap back and front and it took care of the problem.
For some reason it shatters all the steel wire in them and they have no rigidity.
It's really a wild ride a pulling a trailer when that happens.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[KevinJ]

i had a 1996 dodge 3/4 ton pickup that had the death wobble, i know where your coming from. you were along for the ride until you got stopped.

The main difference between a Dodge pickup and a Jehovahs Witness is that you can eventually get the door shut on a Jehovahs Witness

[RaisedByWolves]

Don’t get me started about dodge pickups. Talk about a pile of junk even from brand new. Well about 2000 miles the front end was smoked. Then the trans started slipping.


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[aeroaddict]

So you are saying I should rotate my tires? Back to front?

[OLDCROWE]

Needed new tires.
Common problem on those Dodges especially with a bale bed.
Had the same problem put new parts in the front end and took them out in 50 miles .finally one of my pilots told me they fought that for a couple years with one of their pickups till they changed tires so we just swap back and front and it took care of the problem.
For some reason it shatters all the steel wire in them and they have no rigidity.
It's really a wild ride a pulling a trailer when that happens.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

And here I just bolted a Rancho Steering Stabilizer on and drove mine (96-3/4T, 4x4 EC w/12 Valve Cummins & 5 speed +a two-speed OD) another 200,000 miles before I sold it to a guy that last I knew had it at over 450K miles.

[mam90]

"Those CC airplanes sound like pieces of sheet. The data suggests they turn average pilots into Fuktards. Why would a guy buy one?"

Well I whish I would have known this before spending 3 years to build a plane (EX-2) that flies incredible and comes with the HD 3X3 death gear.

Death gear. I like it. I think we should replace “legacy gear” with “death gear” going forward!

[mam90]

And here I just bolted a Rancho Steering Stabilizer on and drove mine (96-3/4T, 4x4 EC w/12 Valve Cummins & 5 speed +a two-speed OD) another 200,000 miles before I sold it to a guy that last I knew had it at over 450K miles.

Ya think we should start a thread about Dodge vs. Chevy vs. Ford pickups? No, probably not. I doubt there would be much difference of opinion among this group......

[S2D]

And here I just bolted a Rancho Steering Stabilizer on and drove mine (96-3/4T, 4x4 EC w/12 Valve Cummins & 5 speed +a two-speed OD) another 200,000 miles before I sold it to a guy that last I knew had it at over 450K miles.

Did it have a bale bed on it? Ive got 3 of them only one that did it was the one with the bale bed on it.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[KevinJ]

This has turned into an epic thread. It started off with a false premise about “death gear” and seven pages later evolved to death wobbles on dodge pickups. I for one am proud to be involved. Thumbs up

[wireweinie]

Water kills. Every single human being in the entire history of mankind, that EVER took a drink of water, has died. Therefore water is deadly.

Web

[stewartb]

Never drink it straight!

[Farmboy]

My daughter did a school presentation on conformational bias. Conclusions drawn, search facts that support conclusion.

I didn’t bring it up, but this is the case from the very first post.


Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...

[aeroaddict]

Ok, I'm going to start a new thread as this one has gotten to long.

New thread: "Dodge pickup death wobble vs legacy death gear"

[DENNY]

Water kills. Every single human being in the entire history of mankind, that EVER took a drink of water, has died. Therefore water is deadly.

Web

Back in the day I was the Diving Corpsman on a salvage ship in the Pacific, always trying to get my guys to drink more water so they did not get dehydrated. One day one of the other divers who was a pretty heavy drinker said "Doc next time you are down take a look at them fish. THEY ARE FORNICATING IN THAT WATER!! I don't want to drink that stuff" Really have never had a good comeback for that one.
DENNY

[wireweinie]

W.C Fields

It still works

Web

[courierguy]

Needed new tires.
Common problem on those Dodges especially with a bale bed.
Had the same problem put new parts in the front end and took them out in 50 miles .finally one of my pilots told me they fought that for a couple years with one of their pickups till they changed tires so we just swap back and front and it took care of the problem.
For some reason it shatters all the steel wire in them and they have no rigidity.
It's really a wild ride a pulling a trailer when that happens.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

In my '88 12 valve 1 ton dualie, I put in a new steering box, and new stabilizer, and had the front end checked after I experienced the death wobble three times. New front tires too. It had a big steel dump flatbed, probably similar weight and balance issues as a bale bed? The doors worked fine, until it dropped below about 30 degrees, then the drivers side refused to stay latched. After all the front end work, it only wobbled on me one more time before I sold it and moved on. Loved the engine, it pulled the 1200' of grade I live on like nothing else before or since, empty or loaded down, didn't seem to matter. Hated the truck.

[S2D]

Loved the engine,Hated the truck.

Yea.
I also have 2 95 Fords. Like the pickups, hate the engines.

Got a spare 12v cummins thats going in one of them someday when i quit procrastinating.


Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[Skywalker]

If the plane is sliding along on its back with a broken vertical, you want the TE of the elevators to have positive AOA.

[mike mcs repair]

If the plane is sliding along on its back with a broken vertical, you want the TE of the elevators to have positive AOA.

Surely you are joking?


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[DENNY]

Add that to the nose up trim I keep harping on it may just be the real deal. Some one go check it out and let us know if it works!
DENNY

[RVBottomly]

Surely you are joking?


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I was thinking the same thing, but then I thought of a good reason to push the stick forward. It's to position it out of the way when you unlatch your seatbelt upside down....

[KevinJ]

If the plane is sliding along on its back with a broken vertical, you want the TE of the elevators to have positive AOA.

If you’re slick enough to remember to do that while you’re sliding upside down, I bet you’re slick enough to not get it on its back to begin with.

[Cooley]

Can somebody please clarify this for me..
My understanding that the standard EX-FX3 gear is 3x3 gear (the axis of the wheel is 3 inch forward compared to the legacy gear).
It makes tail heavier in the roll but reduces chance to put the plane on its back.
Beringer has "legacy" geometry - Beringer suspension will have the axis 3 inch closer to CG - am I correct?

[turbopilot]

Beringer has "legacy" geometry - Beringer suspension will have the axis 3 inch closer to CG - am I correct?

Depending on strut pressure, the Beringer ALG puts the airplane 2.5" to 3" higher with the axles at the same C/G location as stock cub legacy gear. So you get half of a static 3X3 gear sitting on the ground not moving. What is very different about the strut based Beringer ALG, which you can only appreciate by actual experience, is that the struts slowly extend as the airplane moves faster on the ground. That is because air moving over the wing creates enough lift to unload the hydraulic strut and allow them to extend. In my very light Carbon Cub SS, the aircraft static ground pitch angle moves from around 12 degrees nose up to 15 degrees nose up taxiing at 15 mph. The result is that during the take off roll up to flying speed the pitch angle of the airplane rolling along the ground on all three gear progressively increases before any wheel is off the ground. So the struts are actually giving the wing a higher angle of attack progressively during the ground roll above the static increase of 2.5" to 3" provided by the higher gear. Suffice to say the airplane gets into the air very fast. One downside of this phenomena is that in a strong wind on the nose while taxiing you have to slow down in order to see over the nose.

You can watch this process in reverse in the video below starting at :30 below. As the airplane slows below 20 mph after landing watch the struts slowly compress. Same thing happens in reverse when taking off. The pressure in the struts is raising the nose during takeoff.

[TurboBeaver]

Just for reference sake: When comparing any style of gear to spring steel gear, So folks can get a feel for how far this actually
goes back in years. A cleaver builder of Cubs(Tinny Headland in Illiamna Ak) started putting C172 and later C170
Gear legs on 18's in early 1980's, He built some for other guides, I got to fly one in mid 1980's, that was built for Bob Tracy of
Non Dalton, one fall I worked with him, my accesment of that gear, jumping back and forth from my Cub on standard gear: Was it was certainly impressively smooth
In really rough tundra, and over big rocks, on the old 30" Airstreaks. It very well could have been tryed much earlier; somewhere else? But the point being, there is certainly nothing NEW about spring gear on a Cub, So realistically, Cub Crafters are certainly very late to that party! By at least 30 years.

Sent from my moto e5 go using SuperCub.Org mobile app

[skywagon8a]

Same thing happens in reverse when taking off. The pressure in the struts is raising the nose during takeoff.

It's actually the increasing lift from the wings as the speed increases which is lifting the nose.

[stewartb]

Extending wheel contact with the runway in the transition to or from flight won't reduce loss of control accidents. I'd expect it to increase them. I guess we'll have to wait for data.

[mam90]

It's actually the increasing lift from the wings as the speed increases which is lifting the nose.

Since I know Skywagon, and know he won’t bring it up, thought I’d mention he has quite a bit of certification flight test experience.

[Steve Pierce]

Can somebody please clarify this for me..
My understanding that the standard EX-FX3 gear is 3x3 gear (the axis of the wheel is 3 inch forward compared to the legacy gear).
It makes tail heavier in the roll but reduces chance to put the plane on its back.
Beringer has "legacy" geometry - Beringer suspension will have the axis 3 inch closer to CG - am I correct?

Yes, the EX/FX3s come with 3" extended and 3" forward gear. The 363 engine and the constant speed prop tend to move the CG more forward thus putting more weight on the tail with the 3x3 gear makes them less prone to going on their back. They like to 3 pt. or a tail low wheel landing. Have flown several SSs that were very light on the tail and tippy when you used brakes.

[Steve Pierce]

Just for reference sake: When comparing any style of gear to spring steel gear, So folks can get a feel for how far this actually
goes back in years. A cleaver builder of Cubs(Tinny Headland in Illiamna Ak) started putting C172 and later C170
Gear legs on 18's in early 1980's, He built some for other guides, I got to fly one in mid 1980's, that was built for Bob Tracy of
Non Dalton, one fall I worked with him, my accesment of that gear, jumping back and forth from my Cub on standard gear: Was it was certainly impressively smooth
In really rough tundra, and over big rocks, on the old 30" Airstreaks. It very well could have been tryed much earlier; somewhere else? But the point being, there is certainly nothing NEW about spring gear on a Cub, So realistically, Cub Crafters are certainly very late to that party! By at least 30 years.

Sent from my moto e5 go using SuperCub.Org mobile app

An old thread that you and I both responded to with pictures of the Cessna spring gear on a Super Cub and how it attaches. https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...teel-gear-legs