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Thread: Beringer ALG vs. Acme Aero for FX3

  1. #81

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    Those short struts on the cabane V are to keep it in plane, like the jury struts keep the lift struts in column. But they shouldn't be needed until deformation of other pieces. Seems like they're there to keep a cabane collapse from making an existing situation worse.
    What's a go-around?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    Those short struts on the cabane V are to keep it in plane, like the jury struts keep the lift struts in column. But they shouldn't be needed until deformation of other pieces. Seems like they're there to keep a cabane collapse from making an existing situation worse.
    It looks as those short struts are used to oppose the torque when the brakes are applied.
    N1PA
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  3. #83
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    >>>>>CubCrafters very clearly stated the legacy gear was the problem in 2017. I took their position seriously.<<<<<<

    I donít read it that way. CubCrafters isnít saying that the legacy gear is a problem. In themarketing of the xcub, they state that if you exceed the design loads the traditional gear fails completely. This is because itís worked designed to work together, not separately. Thatís how you get a strong assembly from light parts.

    But that aside, CC needed the XCub to be fast. Legacy gear is a straight up drag inducing assembly. They used spring gear for speed.


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
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  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I get a total of $8800 for Airframes gear w/cabane vee, AOSS shock stuts, ABI wheels and brakes, Dakota Cub brake master cylinders and Atlee Dodge safety cables. Doesn't seem so out of line to me.
    A typical gear collapse in an FX with prop damage, engine teardown and one or two wings damaged can run north of $60k. Insurance is getting impossible to get. Just got a quotes on a new SS. I have 10 years of experience in tail draggers and no accident. 2 bids. One would only insure 2/3 of hull value for about twice what I have been paying. The other want 4X the hull rate to insure it fully. The insurance market is nuts and getting worse for many reasons but the losses they are seeing with the cub gear collapses in recent model airplanes is not helping. New pilots with no tail dragger experience are having a hard time finding insurance, so this issue hitting the resale market.

  5. #85
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    I do not believe they are gear failures, I believe they are pilot failures. I can build an airplane that the gear won't fail, that doesn't fix the nut behind the wheel. If you believe the Beringer gear is the cats ass and so much better than the legacy set up that is all that matters. Maybe it will be proven that nobody with Beringer gear screws the pooch and fails the gear and it will be the new standard. I have been banging these things around for 25 years and the only gear I have failed was catching a sand dune with my Clipper gear on 700x6 tires which has a .035" wall rear tube. Did the gear fail? Yes it did. Was it the right tool for the job? No it wasn't. Only you can figure out what tools you need. My tools have been working just fine for me. I don't believe the sky is falling.
    Steve Pierce

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  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    .... CubCrafters isn’t saying that the legacy gear is a problem.
    This is what Cubcrafters said in 2017. I don't see how you can read it any other way. Long stretch to say this problem is a design feature. I give CubCrafters credit for telling the truth. In 2017 nearly all production was on legacy-type gear. Obviously they were trying to sell the XCub but the statement is true.

    "One weakness of the legacy-type gear on a Cub is that when a landing load reaches the limit of the suspension, the gear will often fail completely, or the excess landing load will be transferred into the airframe causing damage. In either case, it will be difficult and expensive to repair."

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbopilot View Post
    A typical gear collapse in an FX with prop damage, engine teardown and one or two wings damaged can run north of $60k. Insurance is getting impossible to get. Just got a quotes on a new SS. I have 10 years of experience in tail draggers and no accident. 2 bids. One would only insure 2/3 of hull value for about twice what I have been paying. The other want 4X the hull rate to insure it fully. The insurance market is nuts and getting worse for many reasons but the losses they are seeing with the cub gear collapses in recent model airplanes is not helping. New pilots with no tail dragger experience are having a hard time finding insurance, so this issue hitting the resale market.
    Just to put a number on it, something like 6-12k to insure a new SS?

  8. #88
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    The FX3 that I recently repaired after a ground loop accident did not get the prop. He folded one gear, took out both shock struts, the wing and skinned the elevator. From seeing what happened I can't imagine anything not failing. Momentum gets dissipated somewhere.
    Last edited by Steve Pierce; 11-02-2020 at 09:32 AM.
    Steve Pierce

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  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Just to put a number on it, something like 6-12k to insure a new SS?
    For $280k hull the range was $4k for 2/3 of hull value up to $9k for full hull coverage. I have been paying $2k for an 2014 SS. 500 hrs in type, no accidents, 3,000 TT, instrument rating. The broker said losses in these off road airplanes are driving underwriters higher. New tail dragger pilots are having a hard time getting any coverage.

    Does not help that 12% of the brand new, very expensive FX-3 fleet has been involved in an NTSB reportable event since 2017. And the majority of those accidents involved complete gear collapse. By the way not all the FX-3 events have been NTSB reportable and/or reported to the NTSB. I know of several others just locally repaired. So the insurance companies are seeing a bigger picture that is reflected in the NTSB reports.
    Last edited by turbopilot; 11-02-2020 at 09:50 AM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbopilot View Post

    Does not help that 12% of the brand new, very expensive FX-3 fleet has been involved in an NTSB reportable event since 2017. And the majority of those accidents involved complete gear collapse.
    and how many haven't been reported?
    Steve Pierce

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  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    and how many haven't been reported?
    Correct. I edited my post to reflect that issue.
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  12. #92

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    What's the data on the SS? No need to isolate FX3 here.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbopilot View Post
    This is what Cubcrafters said in 2017. I don't see how you can read it any other way. Long stretch to say this problem is a design feature. I give CubCrafters credit for telling the truth. In 2017 nearly all production was on legacy-type gear. Obviously they were trying to sell the XCub but the statement is true.

    "One weakness of the legacy-type gear on a Cub is that when a landing load reaches the limit of the suspension, the gear will often fail completely, or the excess landing load will be transferred into the airframe causing damage. In either case, it will be difficult and expensive to repair."
    One weakness of the legacy-type gear on a Cub is that when a landing load reaches the limit of the suspension. And you don't think that same statement applies to any gear system put on a cub, X Cub, CC, The key work here is "Limit".

    You don't think the Beringer gear has a limit or the spring gear has a limit. I do think Super Cubs are built more robust then CC but I doubt I would fail the gear with the proper suspension and tires if I was landing like they are meant to be landed.
    Come on, a bunch of low time pilots wreck 300K airplanes and it's the gears shortcomings. That is BS
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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I get a total of $8800 for Airframes gear w/cabane vee, AOSS shock stuts, ABI wheels and brakes, Dakota Cub brake master cylinders and Atlee Dodge safety cables. Doesn't seem so out of line to me.
    That's fair and you have a good calculator. I'm getting $8699.80 with gear legs with steps and powder coating, no cabane (the Beringer reuses the stock one) and no brake lines (included with Beringer's kit). I guess the price isn't all that out of line considering.

    Still, it is sold as a replacement to the equipment that comes on the existing aircraft so you're essentially removing and replacing all the items mentioned so for an existing owner it's just a straight $10k out of pocket. The price would only be offset if a kit builder was saving $8800 by not buying gear/wheels/brakes for a kit build.

    Guess I'm just cheap. I won't debate you're getting your moneys worth with the Beringer stuff. It is extremely high quality and just absolutely works top notch. I used to work on motorcycles as a mechanic and whenever a bike with Beringer brakes came in the whole shop would take turns feeling the brake lever just amazed at how well calibrated the lever feel and braking rate was. You knew exactly where your traction limit was when braking on a Beringer equipped bike.
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    That's fair and you have a good calculator. I'm getting $8699.80 with gear legs with steps and powder coating, no cabane (the Beringer reuses the stock one) and no brake lines (included with Beringer's kit). I guess the price isn't all that out of line considering.

    Still, it is sold as a replacement to the equipment that comes on the existing aircraft so you're essentially removing and replacing all the items mentioned so for an existing owner it's just a straight $10k out of pocket. The price would only be offset if a kit builder was saving $8800 by not buying gear/wheels/brakes for a kit build.

    Guess I'm just cheap. I won't debate you're getting your moneys worth with the Beringer stuff. It is extremely high quality and just absolutely works top notch. I used to work on motorcycles as a mechanic and whenever a bike with Beringer brakes came in the whole shop would take turns feeling the brake lever just amazed at how well calibrated the lever feel and braking rate was. You knew exactly where your traction limit was when braking on a Beringer equipped bike.
    You will get something out of what you pull off the aircraft. I would guess at least half of new pricing so that would offset the price for Beringer gear.

    I personally have never flown Beringer gear so have no real world experience but I really don't like how it hangs down when unloaded. To me that looks more like a problem when landing off camber or even possibly when a new cub driver who gets squirrely in his new low time Carbon Cub and starts a ground loop.
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  16. #96
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    If spring gear is better/safer for your mission, go for it. There are many options...starting with the XCub. Maybe Cubcrafters will have a spring gear option on the FX/EX planes in the future for guys/gals who want it. Smaller tires will help too

    My take away from this thread is not that Cub gear is weak/flawed (I've tested that, oops) but that bushwheels, pavement and poor directional control don't mix. I'll be more careful after seeing these pictures.

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauleguy View Post
    I personally have never flown Beringer gear so have no real world experience but I really don't like how it hangs down when unloaded. To me that looks more like a problem when landing off camber or even possibly when a new cub driver who gets squirrely in his new low time Carbon Cub and starts a ground loop.
    That's my impression of the gear too. It's like Citabria oleo gear where you really have to land hard on it and get it to squat otherwise it starts to wallow around and get squirrelly on you. Riding passenger in my friend's cub with Beringer gear it was alarming taxiing off the runway as that thing really wanted to lean hard in a turn. I think that was the Gen2 valving at the time, maybe gen 3 is better.

  18. #98
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by AkPA/18 View Post
    Out of 91 Carbon Cub FX-3's in the FAA database, 11 have made it to the NTSB reports web site in 2.5 years of operation. Here is the bottom line from the NTSB.

    8 landing ground loop / loss of control1 takeoff loss of control
    7 on paved RWY’s
    2 on dirt/grass RWY’s
    1 engine out
    6 gear collapses
    No injuries

    Sure seems like there is a problem somewhere. 10% of the fleet wrecking on runways in in 2.5 yrs.
    Do Supercubs have this problem also?
    Turbopilot, l was wodering if you looked at the piper pa18 stats on gear collapses on runways. I do not know how to find out but thought you might. Is this a concern for Supercubs as well or just fx3? Were these low time tw pilots or hightime. Something just doesn't quite add up for me. Very curious as I always thought cub gear was pretty good. Are the Huskys that have gone to cub gear wrecking on runways also? I know a lot of questions and I don't have the answers but your posts are slightly alarming.

    Edit: The quality of the Berenger gear looks over the top cool!
    Thanks
    Mark
    Last edited by AkPA/18; 11-02-2020 at 02:31 PM.
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeroaddict View Post
    I think the key here is not the gear (no rhyme intended), but stick time.
    Nope. Landings. Number of landings.
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  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauleguy View Post
    I personally have never flown Beringer gear so have no real world experience but I really don't like how it hangs down when unloaded. To me that looks more like a problem when landing off camber or even possibly when a new cub driver who gets squirrely in his new low time Carbon Cub and starts a ground loop.
    Well Mauleguy, then you would not like to fly the F16 or F111. Exactly the same gear geometry that is used on the Beringer ALG. Vertical forces are absorbed through hydraulic struts. Gear hang like this to get the full stroke out of the strut as forces are applied.




  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbopilot View Post
    Well Mauleguy, then you would not like to fly the F16 or F111. Exactly the same gear geometry that is used on the Beringer ALG. Vertical forces are absorbed through hydraulic struts. Gear hang like this to get the full stroke out of the strut as forces are applied.




    Is that why they built the nosewheel cub?
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  22. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by behindpropellers View Post
    Is that why they built the nosewheel cub?
    Cannot think of any other reason to add the weight and complexity to a good tail dragger than to appeal to the folks who just can't control an airplane that sits on it's tail. And it looks really goofy.

  23. #103
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    Landed on smooth 10,000 feet asphalt or concrete runways.

    I would like to see some video of the Berringer landing on a slope g turng gravel bar or some moguls and see how it works. My gear is a known and proven itself to me time and time again. Prove to me I can't live without your Beringer gear.
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  24. #104
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    The NX Cub was built because there is a market for back country airplanes for those who.lack the skills of operating a tailwheel airplane. That simple.
    Steve Pierce

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  25. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Riding passenger in my friend's cub with Beringer gear it was alarming taxiing off the runway as that thing really wanted to lean hard in a turn. I think that was the Gen2 valving at the time, maybe gen 3 is better.
    Actually the valving was fixed in Gen 2. In Gen 3 they added 2 degrees of camber to the axle block to make the wheels more vertical in the typical range of strut inflation. Beringer recommends 37 to 40 mm of inflation depending on weight and ride preference. My SS is so light I run with 34 mm of strut showing. With that I have less than 1/2 degree of negative camber on the main gear. Wheels are vertical if I pump up to 38 mm.

  26. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I would like to see some video of the Berringer landing on a slope g turng gravel bar or some moguls and see how it works. Prove to me I can't live without your Beringer gear.
    Look at the information and make up your mind. Like any hydraulic strut landing gear the strut with the most weight will compress further than the strut with less weight. No difference win Beringer. When aircraft is on a slope the down slope gear will compress depending on the angle of the slope. I have never seen more the 5 mm of differential compression.

    I have lots of video testing the Beringer but none on slopes. Note the Beringer struts with light SS never get close to the bottom. You can see the struts relax just before the turn when the lift comes off the wings.


  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Landed on smooth 10,000 feet asphalt or concrete runways.

    I would like to see some video of the Berringer landing on a slope g turng gravel bar or some moguls and see how it works. My gear is a known and proven itself to me time and time again. Prove to me I can't live without your Beringer gear.
    Steve

    Me being a newbie around here you seem to be an expert (sorry to call you that btw), so I wonder what you think of the TK gear? IF I was building a plane I would send you a case of beer with the understanding I got to call and ask you a ton of questions. I am a HUGE believer in not reinventing the wheel

  28. #108

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    Three foot drop test. If you stop frame the video you will see no more the 1/2 the strut travel takes place during the drop. This will be different for heavier cubs. My SS was about 1,250 lbs gross for this test. Same gear is certified for 2,600 lbs, so lots of reserve.


  29. #109
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Look at the 5 minute mark and then shoot us a video and we can talk.
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  30. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by hawgdrvr View Post
    What's the data on the SS? No need to isolate FX3 here.
    Things are different for the SS. 303 SS's in the US since 2010, but only 25 NTSB reported accidents. In that time 2 deaths, 2 serious injuries and 5 minor injuries. The 2 deaths happened in the same accident operated by a high time pilot. One SS appears twice in the same year with different accidents making it to the NTSB.

    SS will shed the legacy cub gear but not as much as the FX. For some reason the SS enjoys being on it's back more often than the FX. My guess is it has to do with higher weights of the FX.

    Good news for both the FX and SS, deaths and injuries from accidents seem to be very low given the typical mission of the airplane.


  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbopilot View Post
    Things are different for the SS. 303 SS's in the US since 2010, but only 25 NTSB reported accidents. In that time 2 deaths, 2 serious injuries and 5 minor injuries. The 2 deaths happened in the same accident operated by a high time pilot. One SS appears twice in the same year with different accidents making it to the NTSB.

    SS will shed the legacy cub gear but not as much as the FX. For some reason the SS enjoys being on it's back more often than the FX. My guess is it has to do with higher weights of the FX.

    Good news for both the FX and SS, deaths and injuries from accidents seem to be very low given the typical mission of the airplane.

    How much SS time do you have. Easy for me to tell why they end up on their back, light as all get out on the tail. Of course I think the real reason is the brakes are to good, gotta fix that. FX3s have even more weight on the nose with the 363 and CS prop, that is why they come standard with 3X3 gear.
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  32. #112
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    The above picture of the CC on its back is from it hitting a line across the Colorado (I believe) river as the pilot was low level and didn't see the cable. Has nothing to do with the landing gear.

  33. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by tedwaltman1 View Post
    The above picture of the CC on its back is from it hitting a line across the Colorado (I believe) river as the pilot was low level and didn't see the cable. Has nothing to do with the landing gear.
    Did someone say it was related to the landing gear? Actually the airplane, N89BK, in the previous image was trying to avoid power lines and touched down short of a sandbar and nosed over. N1951B (below) hit power lines, partially burned and landed in a river. Neither accident appeared to be related to landing gear.



  34. #114
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Ok turbo pilot,been started out that legacy Cub gear is causing landing accidents in Carbon Cubs. Now we are posting pictures of wrecks in rivers. What is your point?
    Steve Pierce

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  35. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Ok turbo pilot,been started out that legacy Cub gear is causing landing accidents in Carbon Cubs. Now we are posting pictures of wrecks in rivers. What is your point?
    If you read the posts above (something that does not seem happen for some posters on this forum), I was asked to summarize the NTSB reports for the SS. I agree it is thread drift, but the point is the SS's are not shedding gear as often as the FX's, they do have a higher incidence of winding up on their backs compared to FX. Of the 12 FX accidents only one ended up on its back.

  36. #116
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    So what do you think this data is saying? What do you think the real issue is?
    Steve Pierce

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  37. #117
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    Can't fix stupid. I hit a power line once. Lived thru it. I don't fly down rivers at low altitude anymore unless I know the area.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbopilot View Post
    Did someone say it was related to the landing gear? Actually the airplane, N89BK, in the previous image was trying to avoid power lines and touched down short of a sandbar and nosed over. N1951B (below) hit power lines, partially burned and landed in a river. Neither accident appeared to be related to landing gear.


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  38. #118

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    I think the NTSB data reports don't show the whole picture. I would say only 1/4 of the incidents I hear about yearly make it to the NTSB. Lower 48 everyone gets excited about a bent plane up here not so much. I would have to say that with poor data (I understand it is all you have) you have poor results. Kind of beating a dead horse but will revive the thread a bit with my previous advice. If you are a no or low time taildragger pilot go get a pacer (or other 30 grand taildragger to learn in) I recommend pacers because they do not tolerate slow feet. Learning to properly fly a tailwheel aircraft will have some bumps along the way, better to take the bumps in a 30 grand plane vs a 300 grand one. Once you get a few runway lights and some ditch running out of the way, go get in the pretty plane. Advice from an older pilot without 18 year old reflexes.
    DENNY
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  39. #119

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    Not just CCs! That pesky weak gear! https://www.facebook.com/groups/Bigt...7778887082561/

  40. #120
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    "Learning to properly fly a tailwheel aircraft will have some bumps along the way, better to take the bumps in a 30 grand plane vs a 300 grand one. Once you get a few runway lights and some ditch running out of the way, go get in the pretty plane."

    I think this pretty well sums it up, it's not the gear, it's the pilot.
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