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Thread: Beringer ALG vs. Acme Aero for FX3

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    Question Beringer ALG vs. Acme Aero for FX3

    I have a FX3 on order for next May/June. I'm an experienced pilot (3K hours) but inexperienced TW with now over 10 hours and increasing in the months ahead including TacAero formal training in TX. I want to outfit my FX3 with the best and safest configuration for landings as this is where it seems the incidents occur. Quite a few ground loops with FX3's and have also seen some with broken Acme shocks. I'm being told Beringer is the best, it is pricey, but so is the cost of repair. I'm told the 3X3 design is from the 1940's and that FX3's are heavier and newer with the design essentially outdated and a better gear design is needed. Beringer appears to answer that call.

    What is the recommendation for gear on a FX3 without cost being a factor? I am also planning on Beringer wheels and brakes as that does seem to be proven to be the best so this question is only about the landing gear system.

  2. #2
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    The 1940s design is still here because it still works just fine.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    The gear is not the issue, and throwing money at a aircraft will do little to prevent a ground loop. The best and safest configuration is for the pilot to have been properly trained. If you get a chance do some time in a pacer with a good instructor. Also learn to SLOW DOWN.
    DENNY
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    Don't take the words of guys who haven't flown the new breed of Cub suspension. Myself? I had the chance to use Porter style gear. Not interested. I like Cub gear. In concert with TK-1 shocks? Light years ahead of what was previously available. I'm positive my enthusiasm would be the same with Acme. You're getting a state of the art Cub. A modern marvel. These are the days. Don't get stuck in the old days.
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    I’m speaking a bit out of turn but I’ve seen a carbon cub with the Beringer gear and it looked like any kind of xwind landing would be sporty. Think Wilga, Helio or Fairchild with one gear leg mushy and compressed and the other being picked up and extended on the upwind side. The travel is impressive but now you’re taking an extremely fast cub and hanging a bunch of droopy gear out in the wind.

    As far as the brakes and wheels, they are lighter and it sounds like the brakes work well. Are they that much better considering the price?

    Before you pass judgement on the Acmes, call out there and talk to those guys. I was skeptical also until a buddy and I bought a set. They are heads above most everything else out there. Dump your flaps at 3-4’ and see what happens. You’ll have a smile on your face.....Butch Kingston runs a set on his carbon cub I think. Talk to him or watch his runs at the Gainsville STOL deal this last spring. Doesn’t suck!

    Whats your mission? 130mph to a grass strip or big rocks, long props? If it’s the later I’d feel bad using a 330k cub as a shoehorn
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    The gear is not the issue, and throwing money at a aircraft will do little to prevent a ground loop. The best and safest configuration is for the pilot to have been properly trained. If you get a chance do some time in a pacer with a good instructor. Also learn to SLOW DOWN.
    DENNY
    Agree.


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  7. #7
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    It's not the landing gear, it's the pilot. Money doesn't make the pilot better. In some cases it is just the opposite.
    N1PA
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    If money's no object perhaps you should look into Airframes' titanium gear. It won't do anything their steel gear won't do but it weighs less and costs a lot. That fits the FX3 mindset pretty well.

    Whichever way you go you're going to have a blast. Have you started on your parts yet? I'd enjoy hearing about the FX process from your perspective. It's a very interesting program.
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  9. #9
    tedwaltman1's Avatar
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    I have over 1,400 landings on the Acme Aero Gen 3 shocks. They are awesome!

    As several stated above, itís not the plane or the shocks, it is a LOT of careful practice. Go out and do 5, 10 or more landings EVERY time you fly. Make yourself hit a specific spot on the runway that you identify while on downwind. Make yourself hit the centerline on every landing. Go around if you miss either the spot or the centerline!
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    I agree with Ted lots of practice makes the difference .I too also have well over a thousand landings on Acme Aero shocks I changed over from AOSS Five years ago I installed them on my FX2 and had no issues, did the builders assist on a FX3 last December completed the plane first of March installed a new set on Acme Aero Gen 3 & the Acme Aero Tailwheel suspension I do lots of Backcountry Flying in the Wrangell Mountains and would highly recommend the Shock Package I’m running 35s ABW on this FX3 with 3x3 gear great combination.
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  11. #11
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    I think the key here is not the gear (no rhyme intended), but stick time. The first year (at very high insurance rates) I did numerous, hundreds of landings on 8.50' tires (3X3 gear, Acme Black Ops, T3 TW). Then I put on BW's. WOW what a difference. BUT I also think that the 8.50's tires keep you honest. I would not be surprised if the ground loops of CC's are a result of big tires without a lot of TW time. BW's are forgiving and you can get sideways with the BW's before realizing it's to late.

    But to answer your question; I don't like a gear that droops. I need all the help I can get and tires that are basically vertical before I land makes sense to me.
    Last edited by aeroaddict; 10-01-2020 at 09:59 AM.

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    I'm guessing in 3000 airplane hours you weren't landing sideways. Don't start now and you'll do fine. If you do loop one? Damage happens. Deal with it.

    Somebody mentioned Butch. I was hoping to see his new Acme gear but he had a tough end of season. It's fun to see Butch and Toby take off with motorcycles strapped to their gear. I presume that's what the big arm was for on the Acme gear in their video. I guess I'll see it next year. One more gear consideration. Get what works for YOU.

  13. #13
    40m's Avatar
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    Follow Denny's advise, SLOW DOWN!
    I'll bet the vast majority of landing incidents in CC aircraft are with pilots coming from far faster aircraft. Gear, tires might delay or even reduce the severity of damage but sooner or later you will be bitten. Carbon Cub, EX, FX they still land at 32mph or less.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!
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    Thanks for the responses all. I've done the research I feel needed and decided to go with the Acme Aero shocks and Beringer wheels & brakes.
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    40m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawgdrvr View Post
    Thanks for the responses all. I've done the research I feel needed and decided to go with the Acme Aero shocks and Beringer wheels & brakes.
    Don't forget a T3

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

  16. #16

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    Educate me on T3 vs. Acme Stinger please...was planning on the Stinger. Sales rep says stock TW is good which I believe, I just want anything to reduce shock to the fuselage.

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    What's going to stress your tailwheel? The best reason to have a tailwheel suspension would be to reduce tail spring rebound when you hit tail first. I doubt that'll be a problem for you, especially at first.
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  18. #18

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    I just figured there were forces relayed up through the tailwheel to the fuselage from any use and I'm trying to minimize what is passed to the fuselage. If the stock TW is sufficient I'll stay with that. If there are advantages in the T3 or Stinger I'm all ears. 3 point landings will probably be what I do most.

  19. #19

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    Taxiing over rough terrain with a heavy load is tough on the tail section. Average ops on groomed strips aren't a problem. I have a slat wing Cub that can and does hit tail first with power on and slow and I can tell you the rebound with my Pawnee spring will get my attention. I'm not in a hurry to get a tail suspension. I'll take off the Baby Bushwheel and go back to the standard little tailwheel first. Loss of AOA is a problem with big tailwheels. Tail suspensions compound it. Different strokes for different folks.
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  20. #20

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    Stewart covered it pretty well. They do protect you tail especially if you are doing a lot of tail first landings. But they do hurt your AOA. For starters just get a small tailwheel and stock springs. If you find a need down the road you can upgrade if the mission calls for it. I would expect you will need to re-arch you tail spring after a year or two do to too many hard tail first landings. Not a big deal it comes with learning. Do a search on tailwheel castor angle. A bit of thread drift but I saw a crack in the door, Learn to do a tail low wheel landing. It can be done just as slow as a 3 point and it is much better than a 3 point in most situations. Actually get good at all types, is the best advice.
    DENNY
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    Simple seems better. I’d run a tail skid if the cub was easy to move and it didn’t tear up my strip. That said, the AOA can be adjusted on the acme along with several other angles. Flattening it and using a small tailwheel seems appealing for stol comps. They are race car guys and probably understand more about wheel set up than most.

  22. #22
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawgdrvr View Post
    ..... Beringer wheels & brakes.
    Just a heads up. This Beringer system is relatively new. It uses a floating brake disk within the wheel. Only time will tell us how well it stands up. In the past this sized general aviation wheel brakes were of the floating type. After a period of time the ones using a single floating disc became sloppy. They clattered in the wheel throwing retaining clips and sometime the brake pucks themselves. Even rendering the wheel unairworthy by expanding the rim of the wheel. The assemblies using multiple discs were more durable. Cleveland came up with the current very reliable fixed disc brakes which have been very successful for decades. By making the choice you have made, you are being the test case.

    I have no knowledge of how the Beringers will stand up in the long run. Past experience is telling me to stand back and let someone else be the tester. Good luck with yours.
    N1PA
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  23. #23
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Remember Goodyear wheels/brakes on the Otters?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Just a heads up. This Beringer system is relatively new. It uses a floating brake disk within the wheel. Only time will tell us how well it stands up. In the past this sized general aviation wheel brakes were of the floating type. After a period of time the ones using a single floating disc became sloppy. They clattered in the wheel throwing retaining clips and sometime the brake pucks themselves. Even rendering the wheel unairworthy by expanding the rim of the wheel. The assemblies using multiple discs were more durable. Cleveland came up with the current very reliable fixed disc brakes which have been very successful for decades. By making the choice you have made, you are being the test case.

    I have no knowledge of how the Beringers will stand up in the long run. Past experience is telling me to stand back and let someone else be the tester. Good luck with yours.
    Coming from traditional disc brakes on cubs the berringers are a pain in the rear. They donít seem to work that much better than Cleveland disc brakes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by hawgdrvr View Post
    Thanks for the responses all. I've done the research I feel needed and decided to go with the Acme Aero shocks and Beringer wheels & brakes.
    While i dont drive a Carbon Cub I do run an exp cub and replaced my Cleveland brakes and wheels with Beringer rims and brakes while swapping to Acme Black Ops at the same time. My experiance is simple, I feel there simply isnt a better wheel and brake system than the Berringer as they hold full WOT run ups and with the large diameter rotor deliver smooth reliable braking that simply isnt matched as no other system uses such a large diameter rotor.
    My feelings on the Acme products are also simple and solid. They Acme soaks up rough terrian and dropping it in so well I can not see a reason to look no further as they do everything and more that i could ask for. One comment about big tires long gear and suspension is you must land without side loads. In other words land inline straight ahead and you will not break anyones gear/suspension. Like many folks I have to land on pavement as well as off airport. Because of the pavement I feel the scrubbing the tires would take with the Berringer ALG would cost more in tires than I am willing to endure. If I was 90% off pavement I would absolutly look at the ALG.
    One more thing on Acme vs Shock Monster, the Acme will get you home even if you had seal failures as they would simplyy turn into a mech spring shock, the shock monster provides redudency by adding a second shock. This is at least what it appears to me, others with more Shock Monster experiance may chime in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Coming from traditional disc brakes on cubs the berringers are a pain in the rear. They don’t seem to work that much better than Cleveland disc brakes.


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    I can assure you on my plane there was/is no comparison Berringer all the way hands down everytime. Have you run Berringer 10" brakes?

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    So, if my Grove brakes and ABW wheels hold 240-ish HP twisting a CS prop at full power on 35s.... why should I change? Serious question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hawgdrvr View Post
    I want to outfit my FX3 with the best and safest configuration for landings as this is where it seems the incidents occur.
    Youíre mistaken - most incidents occur when the pilot runs out of good judgement and skill before the plane comes to a safe stop. Them incidents have nothing to do with landing gear configuration, NONE.

    Quote Originally Posted by hawgdrvr View Post
    Iím being told Beringer is the best
    Not by anyone that knows anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by hawgdrvr View Post
    it is pricey, but so is the cost of repair.
    avgas is cheaper than beringer and the cost of repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by hawgdrvr View Post
    I'm told the 3X3 design is from the 1940's and that FX3's are heavier and newer with the design essentially outdated and a better gear design is needed. Beringer appears to answer that call.
    *sigh*

    Quote Originally Posted by hawgdrvr View Post
    What is the recommendation for gear on a FX3 without cost being a factor?
    Acme, AOSS or hydrasorbs - not necessarily in that order.

    Quote Originally Posted by hawgdrvr View Post
    I am also planning on Beringer wheels and brakes as that does seem to be proven to be the best.
    lol..only a few years in the making, not field-tested by the masses - thatís pretty far short of being proven the best. Whatís proven is Cleveland wheels and brakes, standard and 3Ē extended gear, hydrasorbs and AOSS. Everything else is hype.
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  29. #29
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Beringer ALG vs. Acme Aero for FX3

    Quote Originally Posted by akwing View Post
    Youíre mistaken - most incidents occur when the pilot runs out of good judgement and skill before the plane comes to a safe stop. Them incidents have nothing to do with landing gear configuration, NONE.


    Not by anyone that knows anything.


    avgas is cheaper than beringer and the cost of repair.


    *sigh*


    Acme, AOSS or hydrasorbs - not necessarily in that order.


    lol..only a few years in the making, not field-tested by the masses - thatís pretty far short of being proven the best. Whatís proven is Cleveland wheels and brakes, standard and 3Ē extended gear, hydrasorbs and AOSS. Everything else is hype.
    Thanks. Original poster is listening to the sales persons selling them the new unproven stuff...best look at what is actually proven, in action


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    When innovation stops we all lose. Slats, Keller flaps, big power, cool prop, G3X... I'm invested in new tech. God bless the innovators! Beringer may change the world. They may not. Either way I applaud the effort. Innovation requires courage and conviction. Two principles we need more of these days.
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  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    So, if my Grove brakes and ABW wheels hold 240-ish HP twisting a CS prop at full power on 35s.... why should I change? Serious question.
    It sounds like for your applicationyour brakes are doing everything you need them to do, plus you already have them on the plane. The OP is starting with a clean slate, so imho why wouldnt wouldnt he go with the lightweight powerfull option such as Beringer? I did not have Grove on my plane but rather Cleveland set ups. For me they would not hold my IO540 with CS prop so I made the change and now have the ability to hold even WOT if I choose to.

    Maybe the Grove brakes would have worked, but I have zero regrets with Beringer. BTW Beringer isnt exactly new to the brake world either.

    While bugees are well proven you will never convince me to remove my Acme and Install them. Come to think of magnetos are well proven too but it did not stop me from putting electronic ignition in either. Did I mention I am removing the well proven vacuum pump and going with a elctronic dash.

    In the end we all get to decide how and what we build, after all isn't that the fun part, I mean besides flying of course.

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    Is your plane a Cub?

    Whose master cylinders are you using?

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Is your plane a Cub?

    Whose master cylinders are you using?
    Exp Cub and it has the Beringer master cyl's
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  34. #34
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Is your plane a Cub?

    Whose master cylinders are you using?
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffP View Post
    Exp Cub and it has the Beringer master cyl's
    It is always important to match the master cylinders to the brakes. A lot of the braking difficulties are because this was not done.
    N1PA
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  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    It is always important to match the master cylinders to the brakes. A lot of the braking difficulties are because this was not done.
    Agree 100%


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    hawgdrver

    Youíll get good training with TacAero and thatís an important, good call. From my observation the problem with buying/transitioning to a high performance CC product is that after you endure the wait to get a new one, youíll be eager to dive right in and your former flying experience may let your brain tell you ďIíve got thisĒ before you do. Problem is that if you bend your bird and many, even experienced TW pilots have (been there got ďthe HatĒ), it my take even longer to get it fixed than it did to originally get it because the repair industry has not expanded with the growth in the market and factory parts come off the same production line as new planes.

    I donít personally know that any landing gear options will making your FX3 safer, unless there are some bad ones out there, but I still fly bungee gear, that comes with 100LL thru the tanks so be patient. In the beginning Iíd recommend placing firm wind limits on yourself that your head will call you a wimp over, especially if youíre doing the fly-off in Yakima (been some get torn up in that process) and especially if youíre not but plan on ferrying it home.

    Be safe, land into the wind and enjoy your new bird.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    I have been reading this thread with interest as I am always trying to learn being a newly minted TW student solo pilot. Of course with my primary training in a Rans S-20 tailwheel I don’t have the bad habit of coming in fast and my preference is to bring it in low and slow and add power to drag it over the fence if necessary... and this allows for very slow landing speeds. With 17.3 hours and 79 landings it is not an issue if you come in slow. The only times I have had minor issues is if I carry 3-5 mph extra speed over the numbers.

    I am sure the OP will be fine with good speed control.

    But what do I know as a newbie

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    It is always important to match the master cylinders to the brakes. A lot of the braking difficulties are because this was not done.
    How do we do that? Stock diaphragm brakes lacked pressure. Your North River boosters helped dramatically. I had them and they worked great. Then Steve's and Dakota Cub came out with vented masters. I've never seen any comparison between the three regarding pressure but it seems like pressure is where the magic happens. It's sure true with my own brakes and the transition from not good to really excellent. All I changed was the masters. Bottom line, and it applies to Carbon Cubs more than most based on weight, Cub's aren't very hard to stop. Cubs like to nose over from aggressive use of brakes. That's why 3" forward gear exists.

  39. #39
    Scouter's Avatar
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    Lots of info at CubCrafters forum site on beringer landing gear

    http://forum.cubcrafters.com/showthr...light=beringer

    Jim
    Last edited by Scouter; 10-04-2020 at 06:11 AM.

  40. #40
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    How do we do that? Stock diaphragm brakes lacked pressure. Your North River boosters helped dramatically. I had them and they worked great. Then Steve's and Dakota Cub came out with vented masters. I've never seen any comparison between the three regarding pressure but it seems like pressure is where the magic happens. It's sure true with my own brakes and the transition from not good to really excellent. All I changed was the masters. Bottom line, and it applies to Carbon Cubs more than most based on weight, Cub's aren't very hard to stop. Cubs like to nose over from aggressive use of brakes. That's why 3" forward gear exists.
    That is basically it. Pressure and volume requirements. The original Cub expander tube brakes required a higher volume of fluid than the Clevelands and only 350 lbs of pressure. The smaller piston on the Clevelands required higher pressures and lower volume.
    N1PA
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