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Insurance industry in 2020

hawgdrvr

Registered User
FL001
As I'm entering the aircraft ownership next year this is high on my "eyes wide open" wake up call. AVWeb sent out an email this morning pointing to this YouTube video. Sad situation as many know for insurance. This is a good watch/listen regardless how long it is. I didn't think I would watch it all but I did.

https://youtu.be/V5hoRkO2oDw
 
The lady in the video from avemco certainly sounds like someone I want to talk to. It's on my list.
 
I have a difficult time with videos - they go too slow. Still, after chatting with Marcie over the years, it was nice to see Marcie in person. She is one of my favorite insurance folks.

This year, after a ten year hiatus, I returned to Avemco. I was saving $600/year with AIG, but now, in my 80th year, they hit me with a 78% increase. Marcie saved me $300. She says when I turn 81, there will be a 9% increase. I can handle that.

Part of it is that maintenance has skyrocketed! Remember when that little nail that holds the Cub trim handle on was only fifty bucks? J3 annuals start at a grand now and go up from there. I get to do the shock rings, and now I have enough perfectly good used shock rings to last the rest of my life!
 
I’ve been with Avemco for almost 15 years. Use them for a supercub and 180. Even during all of these industry rate hikes, my Avemco insurance has never gone up. I’ve never made a claim, but friends that have all had great experiences with Avemco.
 
Yup, me too. I was insured with AVEMCO for some time in Alaska before I put the plane on floats and started instructing in it. They very politely told me that was a bridge too far, risk wise, and wished me luck.

When I moved back to the Lower 48, and not doing any instructing in my plane, I called them again, and have been insured with them since.....almost 15 years now.

And, wonder of wonders, this year's bill was a hundred bucks less than last year's.

MTV
 
Avemco since I bought my Cub in 2001. I think my premium is within $200 of my original amount and I raised the insured value once. Almost convinced Avemco to write our commercial insurance in Alaska in 1984. Larry Storlie was the underwriter if I remember correctly.
 
I check Avemco’s rate every year and they always are 1.5x to 2x higher than the insurance quotes through my broker for the same coverage. I’ve had my PA-12 for 15 years and my premium is within $100 of what it was when I bought the plane 3,000+flight hours ago.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
Sometimes I shop around just out of curiosity. One company I see advertising 180 insurance often here and in AK couldn’t come within $1000 of my annual Avemco rate.. Avemco offers all sorts of incentive discounts Windy, if you get them on the phone.
 
I got them on the phone in years past. They just admitted they could not come close to whatever my broker was coming up with - usually AIG.

I am going to guess Wendy's airplane is $100K - a good, tricked-out 12. Normal premium is probably $1200/year. Hard to believe she can be covered for off-airport operations for 2/3 that. A really good deal! We should all go there.
 
I happened to have watched the video earlier. I'm only 74 but somewhat typical of the new norm. Don't fly much. No place to go. Just like airplanes. Today was typical. Flew the Spezio for half an hour getting oil temp. up and shot 3 landings. Flew less than 20 hours last year but many circuits. Lots of tailwheel time and based on grass I'm probably low risk but insurance is my biggest cost. How I have a new engine in the Acroduster 2 and have to fly both, at least until I can sell the Duster. Oh well. Got to pay to play but I'm thinking about leaving the sand box?

Jack
 
I got them on the phone in years past. They just admitted they could not come close to whatever my broker was coming up with - usually AIG.

I am going to guess Wendy's airplane is $100K - a good, tricked-out 12. Normal premium is probably $1200/year. Hard to believe she can be covered for off-airport operations for 2/3 that. A really good deal! We should all go there.

I pay a bit less than the “normal” rate you quoted. Avemco has always quoted 1.5-2x the “normal.” The insurance company has never balked at my using the -12 on backcountry/unpaved airstrips. I figured they just built that risk into my premium.
 
I was surpised that my C180 at 150K hull came in at $1500 this year. I was preparing for the worst!

sj
 
I check Avemco’s rate every year and they always are 1.5x to 2x higher than the insurance quotes through my broker for the same coverage. I’ve had my PA-12 for 15 years and my premium is within $100 of what it was when I bought the plane 3,000+flight hours ago.
Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

I bet your cheaper rate is a reflection of your low number of hrs flown every year thus less exposure? Wait......:p
 
I was surpised that my C180 at 150K hull came in at $1500 this year. I was preparing for the worst! sj

Who do you insure with?
I've got $90K coverage on my 180, and the premium was close to yours.
 
My experience has been, if your "Joe/Jane" aircraft owner, it's tough to beat Avemco..
Beyond that, .. (any "commercial ops" or shall we say "ab-normal ops") you'll have to shop a very closed market... 3 (?) Underwriters that control the market...
 
Insurers reward loyalty. Switching companies to chase this year's low rate is false economy.

The Underwriters establish the rate. No "broker" has much advantage unless they are willing to discount their "commission" .. If you shop other than Avemco (self Underwritten) your simply shopping Commission and that won't be much different.. You will pay about the same .. shop service not cost..you won't know much about service until you have a claim.. Call Avemco First.. if you are the average airplane owner they will be cheapest and their support will be as good as you can expect..
 
I switched because of a 78% increase in premium, plus the inability of my broker to guarantee no increase when I turn 80.


For comparison, my Decathlon is insured for a million liability, per passenger sub-limit, $52K hull, with multi-aircraft and hangar discounts. I forget the exact number, but $1300 is the rough number, and it goes up 9% in a year and a half. Happy.


increasing hull does not drive the premium as fast as one might think.
 
I was surpised that my C180 at 150K hull came in at $1500 this year. I was preparing for the worst!

sj

Yowza. Are PA-18s that much more expensive to insure compared to a 180? Perhaps I need to shop around. I have my PA-18 insured at 100k hull, and I'm north of 3k/year. Granted, I'm a relatively low-time pilot, but still...

I'm with BWI, but perhaps I need to call Avemco next year.
 
I don't know Avemco (and I am not touting them) will compare for you but BWI makes some marketing claims that don't hold up. They are higher compared to Avemco for me and also higher on another market with another agent and underwriter. My experience only, for some they may be good. My information is current about them from the last few months.
Good Luck.
 
I am sure it was said above: Old pilots just got a giant bump in the last three months. Ouch.
 
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BWI quoted my Cub several years ago. They were a few dollars less than Avemco (i wouldn’t leave Avemco for a few bucks) but there were several issues with their coverage. The biggest was an exclusion for ski operations, so that was the non-starter. When I asked them about off airport operations, they contacted the underwriter who came back with “if you use good judgement with where you land it shouldn’t be a problem”. I figured if I had an accident off airport it would likely be because of my poor judgement.....,
 
BWI quoted my Cub several years ago. They were a few dollars less than Avemco (i wouldn’t leave Avemco for a few bucks) but there were several issues with their coverage. The biggest was an exclusion for ski operations, so that was the non-starter. When I asked them about off airport operations, they contacted the underwriter who came back with “if you use good judgement with where you land it shouldn’t be a problem”. I figured if I had an accident off airport it would likely be because of my poor judgement.....,

To me, this highlights one of the most important questions that pilots shopping for insurance fail to ask.......Does this policy cover off airport, skis, etc. And understand that an insurance underwriter’s definition of “Off Airport” almost certainly includes any airport without an identifier, and maybe a lot of those.

You can’t legitimately compare cost of policies without ensuring that coverages are the same......

Ask questions, folks.

MTV
 
Bears repeating, since it is widely misunderstood -

Your insurance policy covers you. Unless you see the words "additional insured" followed by your friend's name, he/she is most likely not covered. You are, when they are flying, if the policy has an open pilot warranty, or if they are "named."

Uncovered this yesterday. If you get injured, your aircraft insurance does not cover your medical expenses. Do not give up your ACA or Medicare, thinking that your aircraft policy covers your hospital bill.
 
The Underwriters establish the rate. No "broker" has much advantage unless they are willing to discount their "commission" .. If you shop other than Avemco (self Underwritten) your simply shopping Commission and that won't be much different.. You will pay about the same .. shop service not cost..you won't know much about service until you have a claim.. Call Avemco First.. if you are the average airplane owner they will be cheapest and their support will be as good as you can expect..

My experience with Avemco has been quite the opposite... Lots of brochures in the mail, lots of marketing emails promising fast response on a quote, but when I actually filled out the online app, it was more than six (6) weeks before they responded. And the response was that I needed to fill out the online app and submit it. I called, and was told to leave a message for fastest response. Called again a week later. Called again 3 days after the last call. Finally got someone who said "You have to fill out the online app." When I told them I already had done so, he was able to locate it (about 5 minutes of "looking"), and promised to call back with a quote in "a few minutes"... Two days later, I got a quote via email – not from the person I spoke to, but from another person.

Based on the "level of service" they provided to a potential new customer (when they should be on their "best behavior") I was seriously concerned about what I might expect if I ever needed to file a claim... No thanks!

The final straw? The quote I finally received was roughly $1875, versus the $875 quote I received from my broker – for the exact same limits and coverage. That is pretty much the same experience I had with three previous airplanes, as well. When I bought my first airplane (1975 Grumman Traveler), Avemco's quote was well over $2400 per year, versus the $1050 quote I got from my insurance broker. A few years later, when I sold that plane and purchased a 1978 Commander 114, Avemco quoted me $3200 versus $1650 through my broker. Fast forward a few years: I sold the Commander and purchased a 1965 Champion 7ECA (Citabria), which Avemco quoted at $2400 per year, versus $725 through my broker.
 
As far as getting in touch with Avemco; I had the same experience just the last few weeks. Apparently they are swamped, business is good!
I was told about a third of the underwriters have dropped out of the business of late. It is a cyclical thing that happens every so many years.
Things like Kobe Bryant and so many other things are making for big losses for some underwriters and then the cost comes down to us.
 
Yes. I had to pester Marcie. They are swamped. They got me set up after three tries.

I still have a different underwriter for the instructional Cub, and still another for my CFI policy. This is fairly complicated.
 
My experience with Avemco has been quite the opposite... Lots of brochures in the mail, lots of marketing emails promising fast response on a quote, but when I actually filled out the online app, it was more than six (6) weeks before they responded. And the response was that I needed to fill out the online app and submit it. I called, and was told to leave a message for fastest response. Called again a week later. Called again 3 days after the last call. Finally got someone who said "You have to fill out the online app." When I told them I already had done so, he was able to locate it (about 5 minutes of "looking"), and promised to call back with a quote in "a few minutes"... Two days later, I got a quote via email – not from the person I spoke to, but from another person.

Based on the "level of service" they provided to a potential new customer (when they should be on their "best behavior") I was seriously concerned about what I might expect if I ever needed to file a claim... No thanks!

The final straw? The quote I finally received was roughly $1875, versus the $875 quote I received from my broker – for the exact same limits and coverage. That is pretty much the same experience I had with three previous airplanes, as well. When I bought my first airplane (1975 Grumman Traveler), Avemco's quote was well over $2400 per year, versus the $1050 quote I got from my insurance broker. A few years later, when I sold that plane and purchased a 1978 Commander 114, Avemco quoted me $3200 versus $1650 through my broker. Fast forward a few years: I sold the Commander and purchased a 1965 Champion 7ECA (Citabria), which Avemco quoted at $2400 per year, versus $725 through my broker.

I can't argue the difference in rates you listed. AVEMCO is often a bit more expensive for comparable coverage, but a LOT depends on you, your experience, etc. Also, as Bob pointed out, they offer discounts for safety training, additional ratings, etc. Those can be up to 10% in my experience, some have told me they received more discount.

AVEMCO is risk averse. The way they deal with that is quote high rates for more "risky" policies. Makes sense to me....though, like any insurance company, sometimes the "risks" they consider may not make sense to me.

As to their responsiveness, I would respectfully point out they, like the rest of us, are dealing with a COVID tainted world right now. Their folks are all working from home, last I checked, and it's pretty obvious that they haven't got the communications chain sorted out as well as they should. All this virus stuff has a lot of outfits limping.

And, to boot, as others have pointed out, they are really busy right now, writing policies.

Like 17 year olds, pilots tend to demand instant gratification (before you get your undies in a knot, I'm one of those too), and in this COVID crud world we're living in, that isn't always available.

I've been with AVEMCO for fifteen years. Never until this year have I had ANY delays in response from them. And, this year, my policy came up for renewal two months into COVID. It took a bit of juggling to get it done, but it got done.

Give them a chance again, you might be surprised, once this virus runs its course.

MTV
 
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