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Thread: PA-12 techniques/numbers

  1. #1
    Kodiakmack's Avatar
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    PA-12 techniques/numbers

    Hi all. I’m taking possession of a -12 next week. She has an O-320, flaps, -18 tail feathers, vg’s. I am a long time pilot with a grip of tailwheel time, so I have no doubt I Will be able to safely operate the thing without bending it. I am looking however for some techniques and numbers for best performance etc. I understand it’s not dual instruction, and I’ll be looking for someone to fly with before pushing the airplane into the back country. Just curious about y’all’s experience and techniques with the flaps on takeoff etc.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Kodiakmack; 09-19-2020 at 10:28 PM.
    HAVE FUN. DON'T DIE.

  2. #2
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    First thought - - - With the O-235, flaps will be really sweet in landing, except in go-around it will be necessary to carefully milk them off. My -12 was stock when I bought it, and could land reasonably short behind the power curve, but it wasn't anxious to go up when I pushed the throttle forward. With flaps deployed that's probably even more challenging, cuz there might not be enough power to overcome the drag. Play at altitude first. But you know that - - -
    Gordon

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  3. #3
    Kodiakmack's Avatar
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    Gordon. I totally mis-printed. It’s an O-320 not the 235. Not sure why my thumbs did that. That’s good knowledge though. I’m sure it’s somewhat better with the extra horses, but that’s what I’m looking for. Curious if they like to climb with a notch in more than clean. Two more than one. Etc.
    HAVE FUN. DON'T DIE.

  4. #4
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Excellent! I've never generated the data re climbing with flaps even though I know I should. It certainly will climb with any flap setting though. I'm GUESSING Vx at around 40 indicated and full flaps. Been flying this 12 for 45 years, and that's what it feels like. I REALLY need to go out and get some real data.
    Gordon

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  5. #5
    Kodiakmack's Avatar
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    Thanks Gordon. Sounds like some test pilot action ahead for me ; )
    HAVE FUN. DON'T DIE.

  6. #6
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    As an aside, you just barely edged out a local buddy in buying that plane. We were set to leave here at 0500 the next morning to go see it, when Addison said you'd committed to it. Enjoy!
    Gordon

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  7. #7

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    FWIW, I learned quite a bit going to altitude and then burning a tank or two of gas while trying to maintain altitude at the lowest speed/lowest power, etc and varying flap settings: gives a good feel for how the bird flies at the edge of the envelope. Duplicate that when landing / departing and one has achieved something I believe.

    Something a cantankerous old instructor told me once: "It ain't such a big deal to land in 200' at Willow <4,000 feet of nice wide gravel strip>...sure that's great. Practice until you're able to consistently land in the last 200'...."
    Back In Alaska
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  8. #8

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    Fly it and create your own numbers. These planes are all different. get it low and slow and then make a play for the deck!
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  9. #9

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    Oh you'll love her. Not a mean bone in her body. She stalls at about 41 so I used 53 for approach. The first notch of flaps, 5 degrees is for ease of teaching the handle, almost everything I did was with 2 notches, 20 degrees give or take. Climbing out with full flaps works but you don't go up as fast you do with 20 degrees, and 20 degrees climbs better than none. On landing I usually was pretty close to full nose up trim so with the addition of go around power comes a couple of rolls of trim. Like they said above, go fly her and pretty quick you just do what needs to be done and you don't even realize it. With the vg's stalls don't break as long as the ball is centered , it's more of a mushing porpoise tho she shakes to let you know a stall is coming. It takes some cross controlling and a shot of power to get her to spin, not that I have much experience with that. Vx is 65, Vy is 70.
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.

  10. #10
    windy's Avatar
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    My PA-12 flies like a supercub, only better


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
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  11. #11

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    I'm looking forward to what you think. Have Cub time? The -12 will fly tail low compared to a Cub. Not a bad thing, just different. 20* flaps was my takeoff preference in the 160hp -12. If I'd had more power I'd have used more.

  12. #12
    Colorguns's Avatar
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    Big thing is getting your ewcg set right. The rest will follow along really nice. With mine short mount 0-360 with lots of mods. Needed 12# in tail and fly with tools tie down ropes etc in extended baggage. Take off with trim in middle one notch flap. At 40 pull 1/2 flap to get nose up and pull stick. At 70+ mph drop flap and excellerate.
    Landing. Slow to 70 first notch 60 second 50 third. This has no trim adjustments needed Land at full flap and under 40.

    Do MCAS with all setting as well as stall speeds. Will be good numbers to know. No flap 48-43
    mine full flaps MCAS is 33 indicated with 1750 rpm and stall 23 indicated. Not GS.

    Big thing is get your CG right as it maybe nose heavy. Then fun to fly.

  13. #13
    Kodiakmack's Avatar
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    I don’t have much cub time no. 12 hours in a super cub on straight floats with vg’s. Stupid easy and fun to fly, but a long time ago and not really comparable. I’m doing my best not to have overly high expectations for a backcountry monster. It’s not what I’m looking for or what I need. I have a weird aviation background with 7,000 hours. Got my tailwheel in my dad’s christen Eagle, didn’t fly any more tailwheel, and then did 1,000 hours in turbine beavers on Denali. Couple thousand hours in twotters, lots of time on floats in ak in 206 and piston beavers. I’m just looking for something that’s my own, that’s fun, and that I can grow into. I think this little lady is right up that alley. Thanks for all the input friends!!
    HAVE FUN. DON'T DIE.
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  14. #14
    Kodiakmack's Avatar
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    I appreciate the notes on empty cg. This bird has the 14 cathedral brace and the fishing rod tube. No extended baggage. I’m curious what the realistic limits weight wise are for the fishing tube? If a guy, that’s not me, we’re to want to put more than 10 pounds back there I wonder how much would be reasonable. So far my plans are for what you said. Some tools, and beyond the vest survival gear.
    HAVE FUN. DON'T DIE.

  15. #15
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Set up a simple weight and balance program on a spread sheet with your computer. Weight X Arm = Moment. Using this, it is a simple and fun process to add and subtract different items in different locations while watching your CG move around. You can "place" a piece of ballast of various weights at the tail, and then practice some more loading situations.

    You will find the best overall performance when you load more towards the aft CG limits than towards the forward CG limits. A good many of these planes are too easy to load at or outside of the forward limit. By not paying attention to this, many are leaving their optimum performance back in the hangar.
    N1PA
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  16. #16
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by don d View Post
    Fly it and create your own numbers. These planes are all different. get it low and slow and then make a play for the deck!
    I agree.
    Using someone else's numbers might work...or might not.
    And not only these airplanes are all different....
    I temporarily replaced the airspeed indicator in my C180
    and while the IAS at cruise was about the same,
    doing a power-off (landing) stall the replacement indicated about 7 or 8 mph higher.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  17. #17
    Colorguns's Avatar
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    Kodiakmack

    Long or short mount motor mount, Borer prop of a light weight prop? Cato or similar? I bet it is pretty light plane and will be fun to fly for sure!!

    Doug
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  18. #18
    Colorguns's Avatar
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    I heard this is a good plane and set up right, fun to fly plane. Long mount and Sensenich prop on -12 gear. Good bird!
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  19. #19
    Kodiakmack's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the info folks! It is indeed a long mount. McCauley 82/44 I believe. -18 tail and flaps. -12 gear. Vgs.
    HAVE FUN. DON'T DIE.

  20. #20

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    I’m sure you’ve already read this several times, but other than burning lots of gas, a lightweight composite prop will make a world of difference. Unfortunately, you know how many options are legal......ailerons also feel better on a -12.
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  21. #21

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    Ailerons ARE better on a -12.

    A -12 with a big motor benefits from three point AOA improvement. That's a big deal if you want to get the takeoff and landing advantages the power and long prop offers. 3" extended Cub gear and 31" mains is nice. 35s would be even better but add weight.
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  22. #22
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    ......ailerons also feel better on a -12.
    Partly due to the differential travel. They go up 31* and down 25*. It's too bad the -18 doesn't have differential aileron travel.
    N1PA
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  23. #23

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    I put airframes 6” Ext gear on from and couldn’t be happier with the 31”s.

    The mcCatto 84/37 really changed things, not for the pull so much as the reduction of weight off the front end of the envelope.


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  24. #24
    Kodiakmack's Avatar
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    All the replies are appreciated. I’m going to run it as is for some time while the pocketbook recovers. We got her home today. Moses Lake Washington to McCall Idaho over hells canyon. Super smoky. Managed to get her on the ground with a 10-15 Kt quartering crosswind.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    HAVE FUN. DON'T DIE.
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  25. #25

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    I am
    also trying to figure out how to fly mine. Thanks for the post and for the gouge.

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