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Thread: Failure. Brake setup problem?

  1. #1
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Failure. Brake setup problem?

    35'' Bushwheels, 1.5'' axles, double puck Cleveland, brake disk at about 0.235" - 0.240"

    Stopped by a friend house yesterday after having a little fun on locals sand bars. Heard a weird sound after turning around to do a full stop. Turned out to be a broken brake caliper anchor bolt ''ear'', a broken and bent brake torque plate, a bent brake pressure plate and a broken brake hose.....

    To make a long story short, was able to get the caliper welded, the torque plate straightened and welded and a new brake hose to get this this able to stop when landing on my ''tricky'' runway.. It worked


    Those parts were cleaned and inspected by me on my last ski to bushwheels swap.





    This setup gave me more than enough braking power, I don't need more.
    I don't like to add weight to my airplane, but I'm not Beringer$ ready yet...



    I don't know how or why this failure happened.


    So I will at least change the 2 torque plates, 1 brake caliper and 1 brake pressure plate



    Were those parts # ok together ??

    What would you suggest I buy ??





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  2. #2

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    I'd call Grove. Get advice from the expert.
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  3. #3

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    Hard to beat the Beringer set up You will only regret it once when you write the check
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  4. #4
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    You're putting a fair bit more force through the brakes and torque plates than they were designed for originally. Not that they won't hold up to use normally with 35's and 10" wheels but with your particular plane and your flying style I'm not surprised they broke.

    You're also using the lighter duty brakes/torque plates/discs mean for 1.25" axles/stock Piper arrangement (PN 40-60a calipers/torque plates). I'd recommend upgrading to the Cessna spec ones that are correct for a 1.5" axle which would be PN 30-52n with their accompanying torque plates. Discs will need to be replaced with the thicker 164-03601 brake discs as well. ABI makes compatible parts under the same part number for a little less than Cleveland if you decide to go that route.

    No doubt though that Beringer is worth the extra $$$ and is purpose built for what you do. Cleveland brakes with ABI-10650 wheels are a compromise made so that existing users of 6" wheels/brakes could run 35's with the larger wheel. They work fine under most conditions but when you start getting crazy with big shocks, short runways, and hard full lock braking on big tires you should expect that some things just won't hold up forever. You're putting a LOT more torque through those brakes than they were designed for as evidenced by the torque plate pins literally splitting out of the casting and the ears ripping off your torque plates.
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  5. #5

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    Cleveland double pucks have been stopping heavy Cessnas just fine for a lot of years.

    I wonder if the caliper broke and took out the torque plate or if the torque plate failed first? The 4-bolts vs 6-bolts doesn't appear to be a factor.
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  6. #6
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Failure. Brake setup problem?

    Your alignment of torque plat to disc looks good. That usually he culprit when disc is higher than face of torque play and you use longer pins.

    Thin pads on it?(or worn?)that made pins not fully THROUGH torque plate with brakes full activated??? Or on pin come out of plate/hence the bending??

    Sloppy wheel Bearing allowing twist?

    We’d always rip the disk off the rim with garaeros ripping out at bolt holes. Even with kidney washers added on our 185’s. We’d redrill disc a couple times at different indexes


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  7. #7
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Cleveland double pucks have been stopping heavy Cessnas just fine for a lot of years.

    I wonder if the caliper broke and took out the torque plate or if the torque plate failed first? The 4-bolts vs 6-bolts doesn't appear to be a factor.
    Big difference between Cleveland double pucks for Pipers (199-71 kit) and Cessnas (199-62/62a kit). What Oli currently has installed is the Piper kit. I'm recommending an upgrade to the Cessna kit.

    Cleveland makes more than one type of double puck caliper
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  8. #8
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post

    Thin pads on it?(or worn?)that made pins not fully THROUGH torque plate with brakes full activated???

    Sloppy wheel Bearing allowing twist?


    Wheel bearing play was the first thing I've checked, no play



    Brake pads are medium good, not too worn.


    But the anchor pins were not fully engage, the disk and pad being used. Maybe the torque plate bushings a little on the sloppy side. Those are all used parts I bought a few years ago


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    Last edited by Olibuilt; 09-13-2020 at 05:24 PM.

  9. #9
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Big difference between Cleveland double pucks for Pipers (199-71 kit) and Cessnas (199-62/62a kit). What Oli currently has installed is the Piper kit. I'm recommending an upgrade to the Cessna kit.

    Cleveland makes more than one type of double puck caliper






    I've also learned that yesterday when my friend shown me his brake setup...

    Very nice setup but it looks heavier, with thick disks and big aluminum calipers.


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  10. #10

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    Groves work great, too.
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  11. #11

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    FWIW, the casting thickness where the guide pin bolts on a Cleveland Cub caliper is about 5/16". On my Groves it's 11/16. On the Clevelands on the Cessna, 13/16.
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  12. #12
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Make or buy longer pins to keep them always fully through torque plate bushing. To thin(3 hole) brake pads might not be what is needed. Very quick slippery slope one you start mixing cleaveland brake parts. Sure they sorta fit together fine but......


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  13. #13

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    It's easy to reach a finger behind there and feel the pin length through the torque plate. Mine with low time pads has at least 3/8" sticking through.
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  14. #14
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Oli,
    It is important for the pins on the caliper block and the bushings in the torque plate to be parallel. If not there will be a twisting action locking the caliper block causing it to bind. I've found new torque plate bushings out of alignment.

    If there is a weld bead on the axle/attachment plate which interferes when you tighten the torque plate, it can twist the bushings out of alignment.
    N1PA
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  15. #15
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Am I remembering right, but I thought airframes sells longer pins for the caliper.


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  16. #16
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    the disc isn't ripping off rim?

    that would allow caliper to tilt & pop out like that

  17. #17

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    Cleveland makes a longer anchor pin that engages the torque plate holes better. It was a fix for the Dehavilland Beaver brakes doing this same thing. I recommend it for just about every application. Cleveland brake long/Beaver anchor bolt/pin 069-01900
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  18. #18
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Went for a weight reduction.... Will see if I can handle the performance loss while waiting the new Groves.






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  19. #19

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    I wanna hear how they work!

  20. #20
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt View Post
    Went for a weight reduction.... Will see if I can handle the performance loss while waiting the new Groves.






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    If there is a larger diameter disc available which will fit on your wheel, you will get stronger braking action.
    N1PA

  21. #21
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I wanna hear how they work!

    The single pucks can only slow down the airplane. Twice the landing distances...

    I 'll need to wait at least another 5 weeks to get the Groves. Lead time they say.

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  22. #22
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt View Post
    Went for a weight reduction.... Will see if I can handle the performance loss while waiting the new Groves.






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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt View Post
    The single pucks can only slow down the airplane. Twice the landing distances...

    I 'll need to wait at least another 5 weeks to get the Groves. Lead time they say.
    You can always rig a second single puck on the aft side. This will give you the same braking action as a double puck unit. You're clever, I know you would have no difficulty doing this. Use two single puck torque plates, cut and weld the two together.
    N1PA

  23. #23
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    In hydraulics - Force = Area X Pressure.

    If you need more force applied to the brake disc and you are using the same masters to produce the same pressure, then you'll have to increase the area of the brake pads. Either install dual puck calipers or do like Skywagon says and add a second single puck to each side. Go find an Aztec and look at the brakes. They used dual, dual puck calipers pressurized by a brake line with a Y to each one.

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  24. #24

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    Most stock brakes are good enough to stand a Cub on its nose. Even the old Hayes brakes could be locked up on landing. I admire you guys going in and out of rough 250' strips with 31" tires, but I am thinking that even with normal brakes you ought to be able to get into places you cannot get out of.

    I can operate on 250' areas, but I need safety factors of triple that to be comfortable. I am not in your league.

    I also note that the single puck on my J3 is interchangeable with those on a Mooney 201.

  25. #25
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Most stock brakes are good enough to stand a Cub on its nose. Even the old Hayes brakes could be locked up on landing.
    This is very true. However when you increase the diameter of the tires to the extent which some of these (like Oli's) are, the power of the brake must also be increased since the leverage arm of the radius of the tire is very much increased. The leverage arm of the radius of the tire is working backwards against the grip of the brake pads. Simple basic science and math.
    N1PA
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  26. #26
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Thinking further about this, two opposing single puck brakes may actually have more braking authority than a single double puck brake due to the 180 degree separation which allows cooling between the two?
    N1PA

  27. #27

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    FWIW, I struggled with braking power in my new Cub until I had a couple of conversations with Mr. Grove who kindly schooled me about the inefficiency of my masters. I converted them to small bore (1/2") integral reservoir masters to increase the applied pressure. Now my Grove double pucks easily hold my plane on 35s at high power. The brakes are so effective I was advised to change my brake pedal to eliminate accidental toe pressure while landing. I don't know what kind of pressure other guys' masters develop but I'll testify that my new masters are very effective with conventional double pucks.

    From Grove's 682 master cylinder data-
    Our standard master cylinder has a piston bore of 5/8" and is recommended for most aircraft. For aircraft with oversized tires, poor brake pedal geometry, etc. you may wish to use a master cylinder with a piston diameter of 9/16" which produces 19% more brake fluid pressure, or one with 1/2" piston diameter which produces 36% more fluid pressure.
    Last edited by stewartb; 09-21-2020 at 11:42 AM.

  28. #28

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    I am just curious after looking at the welds whose gear you are using.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt View Post
    Went for a weight reduction.... Will see if I can handle the performance loss while waiting the new Groves.






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  29. #29

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    I grant that you may not be able to lock a giant wheel with a smaller caliper, but isn't stopping distance directly related to energy dissipation? You can stop a stock Cub in 250 feet - big soft tires should reduce that even with inefficient brakes. Can you get airborne in a heavy Cub with 31s in 250 feet?

  30. #30

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    Most Cubs I know with normal loads can easily get off in half that.

    Tire diameter is an issue, but weight is as well. One of the problems with airplanes exceeding design gross weight is the ability of the brakes to stop them. That's a lesson I learned a long time ago in my Cessna and it applies to Cubs like mine with typical brakes, big tires, and a gross weight 650# higher than a stock Cub.

    Grove has a kinetic energy calculator on their home page. Brake energy is a factor of weight and speed and there's no variable provided for tire diameter. That begs the question whether the brake energy is different with different tire diameters or is the energy a factor of the rotor diameter? If the latter what role do large diameter tires play in braking? In the Cessna big tires improve braking dramatically. I don't use Cub brakes as aggressively.
    Last edited by stewartb; 09-21-2020 at 01:04 PM.

  31. #31

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    Half of 250 is 125 feet. I have access to two 160 Super Cubs, one with Thrustline and VGs and very little else - a lightweight 1950 model converted. And for a while I had access to a 180 CC Cub. None of them would get off the ground in less than 250 feet. My J3 with Stroker takes 190 feet.

    I admit to being not the world's best Cub pilot, but technique alone is not enough to cut a takeoff roll in half - unless we are talking about those guys who raise the tail and sail down the runway flaps extended to 70 mph. I am not one of those.

  32. #32
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    That begs the question whether the brake energy is different with different tire diameters
    No. The braking energy dissipation is a function of airframe mass and speed only. More brake disk friction is required with bigger tires, but it operates through fewer rotations. Same energy dissipation.
    or is the energy a factor of the rotor diameter?
    Again no, except that for a given rotor configuration, larger rotors have more mass and can absorb more energy for a given temperature rise.
    If the latter what role do large diameter tires play in braking?
    For a given ground-tire friction force, the force directly acting to slow the airframe, the larger tire transmits more torque to the brake disk.
    Gordon

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