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  1. #1

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    Adsb

    Looking at a Cub that does not have ADS-B. What are some options that y'all have installed in your aircraft?
    The transponder in the plane is a KT-76C

  2. #2
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Best one for Cub type panels is the Trig TT22. Has a small control head that mounts like a small instrument. This eliminates the tray used for items like your KT-76A (panel was never designed to support these). If you insist on a tray mount, look at the Stratus ESG in/out kit. One nice thing about their unit is that it uses a Bluetooth signal to display ADS-B in on an Ipad instead of wires.

    Notes for both units:
    If you go with the TT22, you'll need a WAAS gps signal input from another unit, but it has an internal encoder built in.
    If you go with the Stratus, make your install easier and just buy a serial altitude encoder. But, this unit has an internal WAAS gps system built in and requires a dedicated gps antenna installed.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Dont
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    phdigger123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Dont
    Like aktango58 says, don’t. If you don’t need it at your home airport don’t. ADSB takes the fun away from what a Cub is all about.
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    I put a μavionix tailbeacon in the Dec - driven by an existing KT76A and encoder. Passed all the tests. Just have to use care with the towbar.

  6. #6
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    I, also, agree with George. If you don't need it (or any other item) don't hang it on your airplane.

    If you do decide you need it, ask yourself if you want to go with 978 mhz or 1090 mhz. 978 mhz units have some nice 'extra's' such as weather services. BUT, it's only recognized in the US. The 1090 mhz units are recognized worldwide. Consider that if you might fly outside US territory (even Canada) or when the time comes to sell and the buyer lives in another country or Alaska.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  7. #7
    Jim 4WF's Avatar
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    I got it as at Merrill field a lot of 208,PC-12,king-airs etc. are operating out of there and I just don't want to get run over at 85mph. I know most of them have adsb and it cannot hurt. Rusts has it and on a usual summer if you see one red plane there are more around. More info is not always bad. .
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    How much ADSB airspace will you be flying in? Depending on your location and altitude you may not have much coverage or be aware of many other aircraft. It really won't help me that much in the airspace I use. For others it is a great tool, just understand what it can and cannot do for you. DENNY
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailpilot View Post
    Looking at a Cub that does not have ADS-B. What are some options that y'all have installed in your aircraft?
    The transponder in the plane is a KT-76C
    The KT-74 is a remove your KT-76 and plug in the new.
    https://www.bendixking.com/en/produc...nication/kt-74
    N1PA

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    How much ADSB airspace will you be flying in? Depending on your location and altitude you may not have much coverage or be aware of many other aircraft. It really won't help me that much in the airspace I use. For others it is a great tool, just understand what it can and cannot do for you. DENNY
    The plane will be at Hicks in Ft. Worth TX for now... In a year +or- it will be headed up to Anchorage AK

  11. #11
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    How much ADSB airspace will you be flying in? Depending on your location and altitude you may not have much coverage or be aware of many other aircraft. It really won't help me that much in the airspace I use. For others it is a great tool, just understand what it can and cannot do for you. DENNY
    Denny,
    If your aircraft is ADS-B In, you will receive traffic information for any aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out that's in your neighborhood. No Ground Based Transmitter is required to relay traffic in your area.....ship to ship does that.

    So, you can be in the middle of nowhere and receive ADS-B information from other similarly equipped aircraft.

    I'm not a big fan of ADS-B In, frankly, because I don't have a large display to show it on, and trying to use an itty bitty screen to display traffic is sketchy. But, I did equip with ADS-B Out, specifically a Skybeacon.

    My theory is some Dude in his shiny Carbon Cub/Cessna Caravan MIGHT see my signal and avoid running me over.

    I know, I know.....wishful thinking.

    MTV
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  12. #12

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    Are there any ADS-B instruments that work without an existing transponder? How much $?

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    G44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailpilot View Post
    The plane will be at Hicks in Ft. Worth TX for now... In a year +or- it will be headed up to Anchorage AK
    Get it! Both areas are busy.

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    G44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Denny,
    If your aircraft is ADS-B In, you will receive traffic information for any aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out that's in your neighborhood. No Ground Based Transmitter is required to relay traffic in your area.....ship to ship does that.

    So, you can be in the middle of nowhere and receive ADS-B information from other similarly equipped aircraft.

    I'm not a big fan of ADS-B In, frankly, because I don't have a large display to show it on, and trying to use an itty bitty screen to display traffic is sketchy. But, I did equip with ADS-B Out, specifically a Skybeacon.

    My theory is some Dude in his shiny Carbon Cub/Cessna Caravan MIGHT see my signal and avoid running me over.

    I know, I know.....wishful thinking.

    MTV
    Mike I agree with everything you say except one thing. I love ADSB in, I see traffic very well on a Garmin 660 portable, its a big help. Between the traffic on the display and my 2 eyeballs I have a much better chance of avoiding.

    Kurt

  15. #15
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supercub9675 View Post
    Are there any ADS-B instruments that work without an existing transponder? How much $?
    Most "ADS-B instruments" are in fact transponders, that are equipped with the ADS-B circuitry as well as Mode C.

    Garmin makes an ADS-B unit that goes in line between the transponder and it's antenna, and uAvionix makes the Skybeacon and Tailbeacon, both of which tag a signal onto the airplane's transponder signal.

    Everything else I'm aware of is in fact a transponder.

    MTV

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    MTV- Thx for the reply. My question was- Do I have To Buy a Transponder AND an ADS-B instrument? I don't think any of the ADS-B devices will work without an onboard, installed transponder. Am I right? My local avionics shop tells me such, and as I read the info describing the ADS-B devices all say they link into an existing transponder (including the Uavionics).

  17. #17
    phdigger123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supercub9675 View Post
    MTV- Thx for the reply. My question was- Do I have To Buy a Transponder AND an ADS-B instrument? I don't think any of the ADS-B devices will work without an onboard, installed transponder. Am I right? My local avionics shop tells me such, and as I read the info describing the ADS-B devices all say they link into an existing transponder (including the Uavionics).
    If you have an ADSB receiver, such as a Stratus, you will get limited traffic when you are within the broadcast “puck” of and ADSB equipped aircraft even you do not have ADSB out.

  18. #18
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supercub9675 View Post
    MTV- Thx for the reply. My question was- Do I have To Buy a Transponder AND an ADS-B instrument? I don't think any of the ADS-B devices will work without an onboard, installed transponder. Am I right? My local avionics shop tells me such, and as I read the info describing the ADS-B devices all say they link into an existing transponder (including the Uavionics).
    Okay, first, are you wanting ADS-B Out, or ADS-B In, or both?

    ADS-B Out requires a mode C or mode S transponder be installed. ADS-B In only requires an ADS-B In receiver.

    If you want both, you need both.

    MTV
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  19. #19

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    Mike
    I have a Garmin 795 for the cub and picked up a iPad mini for the 180 because I really like to have a big screen. The other partners in the 180 are professional pilots flying bigger stuff but have done a lot of time flying a 207 everywhere in the state and would like ADS-B in and out. I am on the fence because as you know up here lots of the small planes don't have or want it. I rely on people calling out position but have been burned by that several times. The cub will most likely stay without if I put it in the Cessna it will be a unit that is will work with satellite system also. Few more bucks upfront, but I think/HOPE the US will move away from ground based system so coverage is better. I found a site the showed how each system works with pictures (I am kind of slow) I will post it if I can find it again.
    DENNY

  20. #20
    G44's Avatar
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    Garmin 345 is a transponder with ADSB in and out 978 and 1090, great unit! To see or use ADSB in it Blue tooth’s to many portable units such as the Garmin 796, 795, 660, 760 and an IPad with Garmin pilot or ForeFlight. The 345 is a fantastic safety enhancer when used with a portable. Seeing traffic on screen or getting an alert “TRAFFIC TRAFFIC” over your intercom when you don’t see it visually gives you a heads up and direction of a possible conflict. Also, getting weather up linked is a nice feature too. Nope, its not cheap but a great safety enhancer when used with your eyeballs. Only 2 negatives, are the cost and privacy concerns.

    Kurt
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  21. #21
    JimParker256's Avatar
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    TailPilot, here's a link to Garmin's "ADS-B Academy" web site. Lots of good info, even though there's also some Garmin advertising in there... You can probably get answers to most of your questions there.

    For what it's worth, I'm based on the other side of the DFW metroplex, and I jumped on the ADS-B Out/In bandwagon very early. I have an in-cockpit display for traffic and weather. The weather stuff is very nice, but the traffic info has probably saved my bacon at least a couple of times.

    Last Saturday, for instance, I was doing some performance test flying (new-to-me experimental with not much "documentation"). I got a traffic alert indicating an airplane was behind and above me (tough place to see in a high-wing airplane) and descending on a converging course. Even without seeing him at first, I was able to maneuver so that our courses diverged, then spotted him and watched as he flew right though the airspace I would have been occupying without the "alert"... That traffic alert turned what could possibly have turned into a midair or near-miss into a non-event.

    Fifteen minutes later, I was approaching Sherman (KSWI), and monitoring their CTAF. I heard a Cessna reporting that they were on the 45º entry to downwind for landing 16. No matter how hard I looked, I could not see him. Then I took a closer look at the iPad's traffic display... I could see an airplane (with matching tail number) that was almost 5 miles away from the airport. Once I "saw" him on the iPad, I was able to find him visually, and realized we would be arriving at the 45º entry point at just about the same time. I made a 360º circle to safely sequence in behind him – all without having to raise anyone's blood pressure...

    That last one wasn't a "life or death" situation, but it certainly made it easier to safely enter the pattern without conflicting with the other guy – despite the fact that he wasn't a little "off" in his position reporting. Listening to that Cessna pilot, I came to the conclusion that either he was a very new pilot, or was a student receiving flight instruction. He stumbled over several radio calls – correcting himself a few times, and he used up a LOT of that 4000-ft runway with his landing. Rather than adding to his possible anxiety, because of ADS-B traffic visualization, I was able to make a small change to my entry that removed any "tension" from the situation.

    If you're flying in the DFW area, ADS-B Traffic is HUGELY beneficial, in my opinion!
    Jim Parker
    2007 Rans S-6ES
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  22. #22
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supercub9675 View Post
    Are there any ADS-B instruments that work without an existing transponder? How much $?
    For anyone that has questions about exactly WHAT makes an ADS-B system and is to embarrassed to ask;

    ADS-B out is, in effect, a mode S transponder with a WAAS gps location signal piggy backed onto the output. This means that it puts out a signal containing the squak code, pressure altitude, and aircraft ID information such as N number and size of the aircraft. Then the WAAS gps location is electronically injected into this signal when it's transmitted. This is to allow ATC as much information as possible on your aircraft (size, performance capabilities, and in an emergency, personal ID).

    ADS-B in, is not strictly regulated and can be pretty much any system you're happy with. It is just the location of other ADS-B equipped aircraft displayed on a screen.

    The most confusing part of these systems is that there are a number of ways of making up a complete system and the fact that while ADS-B out is mandatory in certain areas and heavily regulated as to what's 'legal', ADS-B in is not mandatory anywhere and there are no requirements for any kind of 'legal' units.

    The simplest way of getting ADS-B is with a one piece unit such as the Stratus ESG. This is a single box that contains all electronics, including the WAAS gps system. The only external components are the wires and antennas. If you desire ADS-B in with it, just add the 3i (aka 'the puck') which plugs into the ESG's wire harness. This will produce a traffic display on Bluetooth enabled units such as Ipads.

    The more complicated systems are referred to as a 'UAT'. UAT systems are boxes that work with an existing mode C transponder. If the transponder is new enough to have data line inputs (such as RS232), the UAT can be wired directly into the transponder. If it has no data input lines, there are UAT boxes that have the transponder antenna coax cable connected to them, with another coax leading from the UAT to the antenna. Also, keep in mind that there are a few units out there that inject the extra information onto the transponder output signal with a radio signal from the units antenna to the transponder antenna.

    Regardless of how the system is designed and installed, they all are supposed to put out a signal which contains the squak code, pressure altitude, aircraft info, and location.

    Web
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  23. #23

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    FYI.... If you are not aware. If you are holding off on ADS-B out (like I am), there's an FAA exception process to fly into ADS-B out required areas on a flight by flight basis.

    Surprisingly easy tool from the FAA. Just fill in the required info and you'll usually get an immediate approval. I used it this past weekend to get into an airport under a class bravo mode c veil.

    https://sapt.faa.gov/adapt-start.php
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  24. #24
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    I considered holding out on buying ADS-B until after the mandated date,
    even though I live adjacent to ADS-B - required airspace.
    But the lure of the $500 rebate got me, after it ran out but then was reinstated.

    I figured after some time went by, prices would start coming down as mfr's tried to attract those who didn't necessarily have to have it.
    I haven't yet seen this expected pricing drop, but then again it's only been 7 months or so.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    Have to add my $0.005 here...can't call it $0.02, 'cause it ain't worth that much.

    For a slow-mover, Merrill can be sort of uncomfortable on busy days, Pt. Mack, and the boat hull even moreso, and the Eklutna transit zone can be nerve-wracking and I couldn't advise anyone not to get ADS-B.

    All that being said, there's quite a few folks driving cubs and the like in and out of Merrill without transponders, much less ADS-B. It can be done and is best done with a very high level of familiarity with the local reporting points and major streets.
    Back In Alaska
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    Looking at the trig adsb bundle....looks like it’s 4000 on aircraftspruce. Any thoughts on this system. I want to get rid of the xpndr under the panel.

  27. #27
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    The trig TT22 is a rock solid system. I'm assuming the bundle includes the TN70 GPS?

    If you get it pre wired, you can install it yourself

    Web
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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    The trig TT22 is a rock solid system. I'm assuming the bundle includes the TN70 GPS?

    If you get it pre wired, you can install it yourself

    Web

    Even on a certified cub?

  29. #29
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Why not? Any A&P can sign off the installation. You can have an avionics/instrument shop test it for proper operation after installation.

    Web
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  30. #30
    JimParker256's Avatar
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    Web said "You can have an avionics/instrument shop test it for proper operation after installation."

    But just to clarify what I'm sure Web meant, even for VFR-only airplanes that sentence should read "You must have a 'certificated repair station' test it for proper operation after installation." (Reference: 14 CFR § 91.413) The other two valid "signoff options" are the holder of a continuous airworthiness maintenance program or the aircraft's manufacturer (if the transponder was installed by that manufacturer). Both are highly unlikely to be valid for us lowly GA types... (By the way, AOPA has a good article on this subject here.)

    I was reminded of this after I installed the uAvionix echoUAT for ADS-B out in my "new-to-me" RANS S-6ES Coyote 2. It uses a wireless connection, so no "certification" required for the ADS-B installation. Easy-peasy! But during my test flights to obtain a "passing" PAPR report, ATC told me they were not receiving an altitude readout from my Mode C. Ironically, the ADS-B Out signal from the echoUAT did report the correct pressure altitude (it has its own internal PA sensor), but most ATC facilities cannot (yet) receive that and make use of it on their screens.

    Apparently, the altitude encoder had gone bad at some point during my cross-country flight to bring the airplane home. A logbook review did not turn up any entries pertaining to biennial transponder certification, despite the airplane having been in service for 12 years! (Big "Oops" on my part, since I had just flown it cross-country and thought I had done a thorough log review prior to acceptance!) Replacing the encoder myself would have been really easy, but a quick review of the FARs reminded me than an encoder replacement would require a checkout by my local avionics shop – a certified repair station. Since I needed the transponder certification anyway, the labor cost difference was inconsequential... The only issue was waiting for an appointment slot to become available at that very busy shop. (And that's where having a good, friendly relationship with your A&P/IA and avionics shop comes in handy! They will do their best to fit you in between bigger, higher paying jobs because they like you and you treat them well.)
    Jim Parker
    2007 Rans S-6ES

  31. #31
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    That is correct; I mean't '. . . you can have it checked out after installation, and it will be all legal.' Not, '. . . you can have it checked out if you want to.'

    And keep in mind that the old school transponder/encoder test boxes (like mine, sigh) will check out the transponder codes and pressure altitude output signal just fine, but it will NOT check out the extra information and GPS signal required for the ADS-B system. The avionics/instrument shops all had to buy the latest and greatest and expesivest, test box to make these checks

    Web
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  32. #32
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    That is correct; I mean't '. . . you can have it checked out after installation, and it will be all legal.' Not, '. . . you can have it checked out if you want to.'

    And keep in mind that the old school transponder/encoder test boxes (like mine, sigh) will check out the transponder codes and pressure altitude output signal just fine, but it will NOT check out the extra information and GPS signal required for the ADS-B system. The avionics/instrument shops all had to buy the latest and greatest and expesivest, test box to make these checks

    Web
    Web, granted, the transponder and encoder have to be verified by an "authorized" shop, but the ADS-B signal can be verified with a PAPR report, no?

    I've assumed that is legal, since the PAPR report actually lists as (presumably legitimate) "installers" -- airframe and powerplant mechanics.

    I assume, however, that if you have installed an "all in one" box, that has internal ADS-B Out, that too would have to be certified by a repair station, or.....etc.???

    MTV
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  33. #33
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Operationally, my opinion is that the PAPR report tells you that your ADS-B out is working correctly. But my opinion is that it will not take the place of the recert that we have to do every other year. So if you just had the system installed and needed to show paperwork that the system was checked for proper operation, I'd plead the PAPR report. But I'd be leary of trying that for the purposes of a recert. In all honesty, I don't have a good answer for that. I'll have to go back and re read Part 43.

    And don't get wrapped around the axle about your system being 'all in one' or pieced together with a UAT. ADS-B out is just ADS-B out no matter how the system is built up.

    Web
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    Adsb

    A review of the regulations shows 91.225 (Subpart C)requires the installation of ADSB to operate in certain airspace. (Subpart E) 91.411 requires altimeter and static system tests/calibration for IFR, and data correspondence between the barometric altimeter and digital output from mode C for all transponder/altitude reporting equipped aircraft regardless of type operation. 91.413 identifies tests for all transponder equipped aircraft. There is no regulatory requirement to test ADSB equipment beyond that required for installation. Lots of STCs for ADSB don’t require any testing beyond the check you do in your phone app.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  35. #35
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    I re read the applicable parts of Parts 91 and 43 and I agree. But I'd caution anyone with ADS-B installed that Part 43, appendix F, (e), (f), (g), and (h) specifically calls out testing requirements for any mode S units. Since ADS-B is a mode S transponder with a GPS signal injected into the reply, be sure that any test box is capable of doing these tests.

    To me it just makes sense to have the instrument shop do a complete test of the ADS-B out system for the 24 month recert. By reg they are required to test everything BUT the GPS signal anyways.

    Web
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  36. #36
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Ok. Found a little info from a memorandum (unfortunatley not an FAR). This cut is from AFS-360_2016-03-02 and is found on page 3. It says that the system must be checked out after initial installation and says it can be done with the operational flight evaluation or with ramp test equipment. Not rule of law but a little legal coverage if a fed comes around. Might want to note the flight test or ramp test in the maintenance logs for future reference, also.

    Web
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    I am going to do a Trig set up in my Super Cub project, Comm and transponder. Has anyone figured out a good way to cut the weird holes other then lay it out and use a nibbler/file?

  38. #38

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    I just cut a round hole and used the adapters, just personal preference plus it makes it more compatible for future changes.
    Thanks Charlie Longley thanked for this post

  39. #39
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    I've been trying to figure that out for a couple of years. The punches made for that are crazy expensive. I was thinking maybe a plate with a pattern hole cut into it. Clamp it into place and use a small router bit. Anyone else have ideas on this?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  40. #40

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    If you have a pin router that would be a good way to do it. Or, find someone with a CNC router.

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