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Thread: Wheel skis - experimental

  1. #1

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    Wheel skis - experimental

    What retractable wheel skis are people using that perform well? Ive gotten reports on the glh3000’s that they do well knowing that no whee ski will perform like a straight ski. Are there any experimental options out there?
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Earle will fill you in. He started on barrel staves and has tried everything else.

    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 07-11-2020 at 10:25 PM.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    Love my Datums. Tons of floatation. Same ski for 2000 or 2500s. difference is just solid or hollow hardware. Listen to his recommendation on tire size and brand. Not a lot of extra room. He has some really specific measurements he has you take for the adapters. None of it is rocket science.
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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Only retractable skis I’ve ever used that honestly performed as well as or better than straight skis were the Rossi-Fernandez 8001 skis. Not cheap, but they work. They are designed to work with 8.50 x 6 tires. And it’s when you get into really deep snow that makes the difference.

    MTV

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    Snow is only part of it. How they perform on wheels is also important. Ground clearance is everything if you fly on unpaved surfaces in spring. If that doesn't matter for your flying? Trick Air and Summits are worth a look. I've been a Fluidyne fan for 20 years on my 180. My surroundings have changed. If I do skis for the Wildcat they'll likely be one of the new breed of penetration skis.

  7. #7
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    What plane are you flying? I have had excellent results with Summit 2500. Deep snow to slushy conditions the wrk great on these lighter tailreaggers. They only weigh 20 lbs a sideI have flown in Jason's cub on Datums, the work great as well and it's a really simple design
    jim
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  8. #8
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Snow is only part of it. How they perform on wheels is also important. Ground clearance is everything if you fly on unpaved surfaces in spring. If that doesn't matter for your flying? Trick Air and Summits are worth a look. I've been a Fluidyne fan for 20 years on my 180. My surroundings have changed. If I do skis for the Wildcat they'll likely be one of the new breed of penetration skis.
    I have a picture somewhere of my Datum's on a gravel bar, but can't seem to find it. It was kind of a bad idea as the bar was a bit soft, and I thought I was really beating up the plastic on the bottoms, but once home a close inspection showed no damage, not even any scraps. I've gotten them pretty muddy also. The penetration wheel skis I've seen don't seem to offer that type of off pavement, not to mention off airport, capability. The pic is one of my favorites from last winter, landing near a ski equipped porta potty, I didn't need to use it, but just couldn't pass up the photo op.
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  9. #9

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    Plane is a 4 place cub. Estimated 1300 empty 2300 gross. Moving towards the 2500 datums. Thought about the 3000s for the larger tire and flotation but looks like more ski than needed.


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    I run 2500B FEDERAL'S on my cub with extended plastic. Heavy but they float great and tough as nails. One thing that I see being a problem with hydraulic wheel skis is the brake caliper setup. Many of the skis where designed with a flat back caliper (1 1/4 axle style) A lot of planes have upgraded to 1 1/2 axle and that pesky nipple on the back of the caliper gets in the way. Grove 1/ 1/2 caliper are flat backed like the 1 1/4 so if you have a issue that will save a lot of cutting and grinding. Bottom line is check what brake the ski was made for because they are not all the same!!!
    DENNY

  11. #11
    courierguy's Avatar
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    With the Datums, I am limited to a single caliper brake setup, due to the needed clearance when the tire drops though the ski (actually the ski comes up.) This is not a big deal as my plane lands so slow anyway.

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    I like my Datum 2500's. It takes a little fine-tuning, but you can get plenty of ground clearance. Had to turn the Cleveland brakes 90-degrees so there would be no interference with the bleed nipple. Super easy changeover - floats to skis (doing the swap today!). They have proven to be reliable. And no pumping!

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    Great info. I will also be running the beringer 6” wheel and ive heard it works great with that setup.

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    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Couple of notes on Datums, first of all you CAN install double puck Cleavelands by reindexing the torque plate holes. Folks get
    mixed up about ground clearance thinking
    a bigger tire is always better, however most
    manufacturing on penetration skis are very
    cautious of having much of the tire sticking
    down thru the bottom of the ski as it destroys the skis performance......... From what I have observed looking at Summits they appear to have very limited clearance on 8:50s to enhance their ski mode performance. I have 3.5" at the heel of my Datums. So you can't automatically assume bigger tire is always more clearance. And as far as AOA is concerned
    when the tire is up ontop of the Datum skis it will have more than most because of the amount it rises up to get onto it's pedistal.
    Combined with 3" gear the Datums make a great combination for sure. For extreme snow conditions; 6" gear will net you 27"
    of prop clearance with an 84" Catto, on 6:00x6 tires. And with
    A thrustline kit installed, your crankshaft should be right at 70" on those tires. So for
    comparison sake: a Cub on standard gear with 31" Bushwheels is normally around 66/67" according to what tail spring and tire your using. The Datum skis are the best "wheel skis option" out there, especially considering the only options start at $25,000 ! You fly em and you'll
    buy em. This picture shows correct placement for doublepucks and actual clearance.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/c5eo5tzmin...38457.jpg?dl=0

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    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 11-09-2020 at 06:41 AM.

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    AWB 2500 on PA-12

    Hi Earle, Parker and I are installing AWB 2500 wheel skis on the PA-12. Wondering if you have any experience or thoughts on this setup.

  16. #16

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    I ran AWB 2500’s with a 26 bush wheels for many years, great spring bear setup, little heavy but great ground clearance.


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  17. #17
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airguide View Post
    I ran AWB 2500’s with a 26 bush wheels for many years, great spring bear setup, little heavy but great ground clearance.


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    A number of sets of those AWB 2500s were modified by FWS (and probably others) in Alaska by lengthening the rigger arms to provide clearance for the old Goodyear 25 inch Airwheels on our Cubs.

    I had a set of those on my 170 for years. They work ok, but as noted above, they are heavy.

    I believe the AWB 2500 A wheel skis had longer rigger arms from the factory, and were legal on 8.50s in factory configuration....

    MTV
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  18. #18

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    I had a field approval for 26 inch bush wheels! Like I said it was a great setup!


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  19. #19
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Hi Kent,
    We used them for years as well and like Mike says they are heavy, but they are very rugged . Too be honest especially on a 12, I prefer taller gear , 3" is great on Cubs but with the wider fuselage of the 12 and lesser AOI , I would certainly run 6" gear with any ski set up. You will notice the AWB
    will dive into spring snow when you get them into sidehilling , more than other skis.
    The Flilites are much better in funky snow but almost cost prohibited.......
    I am running new 6" HD Javron gear this winter, even with the little 6:00x6 tires I have more AOA then you can imagine.
    The utility of those AWB to be able land at airport for fuel then go play in fresh snow is certainly the ultimate set up. Are you hand pumping them??? Wish you were closer so you could fly this Cub on the Datums.......... Gosh it's getting to be a long time ago, that we fish spotted Kent...... Whiskers are getting pretty white on this end.
    Bet Airguide could tell you better than me on AWBs. Like MTV: I also really liked Fernandez's skis, great performance but not better than the Datums. Kent, Mike Meekins ( 907-745-1626) up at Gunsight, runs the plastic way over on the tails towards the wheel side in a widget, it would give them alot more floatation??? I would visit with him also. He is VERY knowledgeable on wheelskis
    Good luck olde friend.
    E

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    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 11-10-2020 at 03:29 AM.

  20. #20
    Penguin's Avatar
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    Earle - awesome to chat with you. I really appreciate your time.

    Has anyone had any luck getting a Field Approval for Summit skis? Glenn - were you working on something like this at some point? Being certified and on pavement I'm boxed into the penetration ski corner. I'd sure like to go with Summit if I could make it happen. Any advise? Local FSDO is Reno.

  21. #21
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
    Earle - awesome to chat with you. I really appreciate your time.

    Has anyone had any luck getting a Field Approval for Summit skis? Glenn - were you working on something like this at some point? Being certified and on pavement I'm boxed into the penetration ski corner. I'd sure like to go with Summit if I could make it happen. Any advise? Local FSDO is Reno.
    There are several "legacy" retractable wheel skis that may be approved on your plane, depending on what model it is.

    AWB 2500s, LHD 3000s, C-2200 or C3200s, FlyLite 3000s, etc,

    MTV

  22. #22
    C130jake's Avatar
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    I have summits on my CCEX and we put Trickairs on our certified PA12 last winter. 3ft of snow is the deepest they have been in and worked great.


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  23. #23
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    Trickair is my first choice, but are proving to be a challenge to get. The Summit skis are lighter. I'd put the work in on a FA if I could get a pair.

  24. #24
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    The only one to get a FA on Summits is Mark on his Pa11. He gave us copy's of his paperwork but 3 different IAs have not gotten any results. We have 4 SC flying over here on Summits, one 12 on Datums that was on Trickairs. I had Summits on my 100hp Cub but switched to Datums that perform better for my setup

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  25. #25
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    I've noticed this too, emailed them several times and called with no answer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
    Trickair is my first choice, but are proving to be a challenge to get. The Summit skis are lighter. I'd put the work in on a FA if I could get a pair.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    The only one to get a FA on Summits is Mark on his Pa11. He gave us copy's of his paperwork but 3 different IAs have not gotten any results. We have 4 SC flying over here on Summits, one 12 on Datums that was on Trickairs. I had Summits on my 100hp Cub but switched to Datums that perform better for my setup

    Glenn
    I got a few before they told me no


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  27. #27
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    To be clear, the folks at Trickair got back to me right away. I’m looking for a pre-owned pair so needed to buy the pedestals & STC. No problem at all.

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    I am re-doing my Datum tail ski rigging, after getting a T-3 spring. I did a quick search here hoping to see some examples as to how a tail ski is rigged (limit cables/etc.) but didn't come up with anything. So I am doing my own thing and I will post some pics when done. Then you guys can tell me how I should have done it!

    That reminds me: I am giving away a J-3 tail spring, just pay US Mail postage and I'll send it to the first responder. Bought from Spruce, the standard 3 leaf.
    Last edited by courierguy; 11-24-2020 at 10:43 PM.
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  29. #29
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    The J-3 tail spring is gone!

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    Just polling the crowd here. I am making some (positive?) progress on a FA for Summits on my 18-150. Mark's 337 is incredibly helpful, but is for the LSA size ski whereas I'd be looking for a FA on the 2300's. Before I push forward collecting a bit more data from folks, is there anyone that happens to know anyone with a 337 for 2300's? My IA and DER are willing to look at whatever they can get their hands on.

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    Does any one have a FA for Datums on a pa-18? Thanks in advance

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    Datums are getting to be alot like Catto props....... Folks are simply bolting them on and running them. Incredibly nice performance from a wheel ski, Simple and LITE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
    Just polling the crowd here. I am making some (positive?) progress on a FA for Summits on my 18-150. Mark's 337 is incredibly helpful, but is for the LSA size ski whereas I'd be looking for a FA on the 2300's. Before I push forward collecting a bit more data from folks, is there anyone that happens to know anyone with a 337 for 2300's? My IA and DER are willing to look at whatever they can get their hands on.
    I was trying to do a DER approval for Summit skis, ran into an issue where Summit either doesn’t have, or won’t share any structural data on the skis. In order to do either a Field approval, or a DER approval, you need to show that the skis at least meet the requirements of TSO C28 sine both CAR 3 and CAR 4 require “certified” skis. If someone could come up with the data, it would be a piece of cake, but without the data it’s a no go.


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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    I was trying to do a DER approval for Summit skis, ran into an issue where Summit either doesn’t have, or won’t share any structural data on the skis. In order to do either a Field approval, or a DER approval, you need to show that the skis at least meet the requirements of TSO C28 sine both CAR 3 and CAR 4 require “certified” skis. If someone could come up with the data, it would be a piece of cake, but without the data it’s a no go.


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    What about previously approved field approvals? Have one for the Lsa and 2300


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  35. #35
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    I was trying to do a DER approval for Summit skis, ran into an issue where Summit either doesn’t have, or won’t share any structural data on the skis. In order to do either a Field approval, or a DER approval, you need to show that the skis at least meet the requirements of TSO C28 sine both CAR 3 and CAR 4 require “certified” skis. If someone could come up with the data, it would be a piece of cake, but without the data it’s a no go.


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    I would have to imagine that they have some sort of data http://summitaircraft.com/wp-content...A-Ski-Test.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    I would have to imagine that they have some sort of data http://summitaircraft.com/wp-content...A-Ski-Test.jpg


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    Talked to them and they said no. I suspect they just don’t want to give it out for liability reasons.


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  37. #37
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    David, maybe Datums would work with. Better ski anyway.

    https://www.datumair.com/skis.php

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Could be, Glenn. Hadn’t tried with them. The TSO calls out an SAE spec, and you need to pay for the spec before you can even see what they want. Since I couldn’t get any data on the Summit skis, I didn’t invest in the spec to see if they complied or not.


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    Has anyone tried running grove HD/double puck calipers with summit wheel penetration skis? If so, what modification to the calipers was required? I inquired with Mike from Summit and he said that modification might be required. Additionally he said that the summits would not work with Beringer brakes. I assume the grove HD calipers probably need to be indexed a particular way to clear the ski. If anyone knows or has experience, that'd be helpful.

    Aircraft is a carbon cub FX3 so the factory might know how to do this. I'll probably keep separate set of 6" wheels with 31's mounted for summer use and was hoping for quick change capability by keeping the double pucks on with the summit skis on 8.50's.

    You can see here how they mounted them, can anyone tell if these are single or doubles?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Narwhal; 10-24-2021 at 06:59 PM.

  40. #40
    C130jake's Avatar
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    Just put doubles on my ex1. I get home from a work trip Friday and will send pics.
    Ski season is fast approaching.

    Jake

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