Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: c-180/185 Airworthiness Directives

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,086
    Post Thanks / Like

    c-180/185 Airworthiness Directives

    I see 99 of them on the FAA archives, but would have to look most of them up to see if they really apply. Not above doing that, but was hoping maybe somebody has already done it? I did the Super Cub and posted it a long time ago, but am not looking forward to researching these.

    Airframe log lists 19, but info on what they are and when they were done is, of course, sparse. Airplane is really clean, low time 185F.

    yes, I did a search. Nothing really popped out.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    AK
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like
    This question is impossible to answer- you’ll have to man up and go through each one to see if it applies by model, serial number, etc. This is why you, as an FAA certified mechanic, make the big bucks. I doubt you really want to sign off AD’s based on an Internet forum response... That being said, some of the AD software programs can really help narrow down the results- 99 is way too many, unless that includes engine and all possible appliances.
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    154
    Post Thanks / Like
    When a new customer comes to you they need to realize that you are going to have to spend several hours going through the records including the AD log. The plane has an AD log, right? Even so, most miss a bunch of appliance ADs.

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,086
    Post Thanks / Like
    Some of them are easy. One says "turbine propeller shaft." Most do not have enough descriptive material.
    I don't do annuals, except on my own aircraft, and you bet I "man up" and get a complete description, including how c/w and date/page, and copy all of them into the latest logbook. Takes around eight hours the first time; then just check the bi-weekly. Even with T-data.

    This is a good friend's airplane. It has had annuals by the best, including that 180 repair shop in Colorado. Nobody has created an a/d record worth very much - and I find that typical with the few airplanes I agree to help with. This one - the old guys who did the inspections both croaked.

    Can't wait to see the weight/balance. They are almost always simply incorrect, at least on Cubs.
    Likes Pete Schoeninger liked this post

  5. #5
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    11,105
    Post Thanks / Like
    I do 3 listings, one for ones that do NOT apply and why not, then another for ones that do apply. And a third sheet for reoccurring ads. You only need to do this once... then just look for new ones next time


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    154
    Post Thanks / Like
    I create an Excel spreadsheet and similar to Mike, I have three columns for N/A, one-time and recurring. There is a field for date, method of compliance, next-due, etc. But again, a new to you customer is going to involve several hours of work depending on how bad/incomplete/sloppy the records are. What makes the process easier is access to a list of all of the installed equipment and mode #, s/n#.
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  7. #7

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    707
    Post Thanks / Like
    I use TData Avant to do my AD searches. You can try using the RGL, but so many ADs reference manufacturers Service Bulletins, and without access to them you are dead in the water. There are a number of 3rd party vendors for ADs and SB data and they provide a convenient method for making a listing. If you only look at the airframe, you are only doing 1/4 of the job! This is why it is so important for the OWNER to maintain an up to date EQUIPMENT LIST. When you do inspections, you need to research the airframe ADs, engine ADs, propeller ADs, and equipment ADs. There are a lot of equipment (appliance) ADs that get missed for years! Most violations against mechanics are for missing AD compliance during inspections. If it is your first time looking at a given airplane budget about 10 hours minimum for a thorough records review. Some airplane take longer, some less, but I find about 10 hours average.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Likes ak49flyer liked this post

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,086
    Post Thanks / Like
    I agree with the ten hours. I will not sign an annual without something like the Excel list mentioned above in the back of the current log.

    This aircraft is pristine - yet the fuel bladder AD was never done! Still haven't figured out if it has a cigar lighter. Getting a T-data print out tomorrow. Slick mags, not mentioned in any logbook ever! Look brand new.
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  9. #9
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    11,105
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I agree with the ten hours. ...
    ten hours might be excessive...

    but if someone does it/list RIGHT ONCE... it never has to be repeated!!!

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,086
    Post Thanks / Like
    I spent an hour just getting a vague idea of what has to happen.

    I helped a relative buy a Mooney a while back - it was built in the 1970s, maintained by a Mooney dealer with a repair shop designation. No logbook evidence of fuel tank or control yoke ADs, over twenty years of annuals.

    I agree - once done properly, the next annual requires only checking the bi-weekly. Ten minutes for paperwork.

    I am the same for alterations - I list them in one spot, with a statement as to how and when. This one needs a 337 for one mod. The other was done by a repair station.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,086
    Post Thanks / Like
    Just today - after a week - the owner came by with a previously done T-data list, signed by an A&P, and another from the engine overhauler, also signed by an A&P. There is no mention of any of them in the actual logbook. So my job is to make sure they are in the logbook. That, of course, is not a legal requirement, but I am not doing this next year, so the next shop won't have to start from zero.

    I am at hour 3, and my observation is this:

    If you own a Cessna 185 and you lose the logbooks, you could be in for an engine teardown and a $20,000 paperwork adventure. A lot of them are indeed N/A by S/N, but still, a lot of work!

    It will take the entire ten hours to get it squared away. We don't have to do them; just check that they are done.

    My next question:

    I am finding 337s for instrument replacements done by FAA repair stations. No approved data referenced. They sound like minor alterations to me. And, yikes! An autopilot with, so far, no mention in the logbook, let alone a 337. I may yet find adequate approval - it is a really good autopilot.

    Glad I don't do this for a living - I would go nuts.
    Thanks barrow pilot thanked for this post
    Likes barrow pilot, jrussl liked this post

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,086
    Post Thanks / Like
    I am finding almost everything, except whether this bird has Goodyear BTS-39 bladders. Does Cessna maintain this kind of info on older aircraft?

    About half of the major alterations do not have 337s. I suppose they could have been lost. I now am aware that even FAA repair shops must submit 337s for major alterations.
    Likes Bill.Brine liked this post

  13. #13
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    3,118
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    ........About half of the major alterations do not have 337s. I suppose they could have been lost. .....
    A CD with all of the FAA's info on that airplane is $10 as I recall.
    You get in in pretty short order too.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  14. #14

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    707
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I am finding almost everything, except whether this bird has Goodyear BTS-39 bladders. Does Cessna maintain this kind of info on older aircraft?

    About half of the major alterations do not have 337s. I suppose they could have been lost. I now am aware that even FAA repair shops must submit 337s for major alterations.
    Hard to believe the same fuel cells would be installed since 1978. I,d look long and hard to find an entry replacing the fuel cells. Doing that standpipe test is a pain. Sometimes it,s easier to pop the covers and try and see if you can find the markings on the bladder to confirm it isn’t BTC-39. I’d look in the 1990 time frame since the other fuel cell for wrinkles was in 1990.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  15. #15

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    707
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Just today - after a week - the owner came by with a previously done T-data list, signed by an A&P, and another from the engine overhauler, also signed by an A&P. There is no mention of any of them in the actual logbook. So my job is to make sure they are in the logbook. That, of course, is not a legal requirement, but I am not doing this next year, so the next shop won't have to start from zero.

    I am at hour 3, and my observation is this:

    If you own a Cessna 185 and you lose the logbooks, you could be in for an engine teardown and a $20,000 paperwork adventure. A lot of them are indeed N/A by S/N, but still, a lot of work!

    It will take the entire ten hours to get it squared away. We don't have to do them; just check that they are done.

    My next question:

    I am finding 337s for instrument replacements done by FAA repair stations. No approved data referenced. They sound like minor alterations to me. And, yikes! An autopilot with, so far, no mention in the logbook, let alone a 337. I may yet find adequate approval - it is a really good autopilot.

    Glad I don't do this for a living - I would go nuts.
    Auto pilot definitely needs an STC and 337 along with a Flight Manual Supplement.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  16. #16
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    3,103
    Post Thanks / Like
    If the auto pilot was factory installed, there wouldn't be a 337 would there?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  17. #17

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    707
    Post Thanks / Like
    True, but the original application for airworthiness should list the STC number as being installed at the time of certification.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Likes wireweinie liked this post

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,086
    Post Thanks / Like
    Nope. Done in 1998 by an FAA repair station - which is still in business! That may work. They did a 337 on something called a "Strikefinder" at the same time they did the autopilot, HSI, and other things. No STC or Field Approval on the Strikefinder.

    Good news on the bladders - the AD specifies 180/185, but in the first paragraph above that it says "manufactured before December 1973". This aircraft rolled out in late 1974. Whew!

    Got the FAA cd. Owner had it. Illuminating! Several well-executed 337s never made it to OKC, and several others did make it with no corresponding copy or record in the aircraft paperwork.

  19. #19
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    11,105
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Nope. Done in 1998 by an FAA repair station - which is still in business! That may work. They did a 337 on something called a "Strikefinder" at the same time they did the autopilot, HSI, and other things. No STC or Field Approval on the Strikefinder.

    Good news on the bladders - the AD specifies 180/185, but in the first paragraph above that it says "manufactured before December 1973". This aircraft rolled out in late 1974. Whew!

    Got the FAA cd. Owner had it. Illuminating! Several well-executed 337s never made it to OKC, and several others did make it with no corresponding copy or record in the aircraft paperwork.
    spending WAY to much time looking at/for paperwork... did you notice the parts where the wings were about to fall off???

  20. #20

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,086
    Post Thanks / Like
    Hah! You could eat your lunch off of any square inch on the airframe or engine. This thing is a creampuff. The IAs since 1998 have been signing two A/Ds as C/W, and ignoring the rest. One of the A/Ds (the fuel cap one) is apparently terminated with new cap design - STC'd, but no 337. So how is it C/W ? By ignoring it? Still learning.

    Would you do the same? I think it needs to go through a qualified 180 shop every ten years or so, but its owner is a meticulous mechanic. So we are going to get the paperwork right, find an AFM, generate an equipment list, and twist his arm for an hour of pattern work when it is done.

    I gotta tell you - I have renewed respect for folks who do this for a living - at least for the ones who do a paperwork check.

  21. #21
    Grant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    At Work.....
    Posts
    1,751
    Post Thanks / Like
    You could eat your lunch off of any square inch on the airframe or engine
    That's precisely what would worry me...

  22. #22
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    3,118
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Hah! You could eat your lunch off of any square inch on the airframe or engine. This thing is a creampuff. The IAs since 1998 have been signing two A/Ds as C/W, and ignoring the rest. One of the A/Ds (the fuel cap one) is apparently terminated with new cap design - STC'd, but no 337. So how is it C/W ? .....
    My 180 has 3 recurring AD's:
    76-07012 bendix ignition switch
    2011-10-09 seats & rails
    84-10-01 R1 bladders & caps

    All the rest are one-timers.

    84-10-01 R1 is c/w by annual inspection, paragraph (d).
    Don't think caps have to be replaced.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,086
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks! I forgot about that ignition switch, and it did not show up on the T-data list, nor in the logbook.

    When I say clean, I mean inside too. They chromated the inside, and it looks like it was done yesterday.

    And yes, I have seen show quality Cubs with internal rust and unapproved alterations. I love to fly 180s, but have never annualled one before. I did rebuild the tail cone of one a couple decades ago (with mucho help from this forum).

  24. #24

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,086
    Post Thanks / Like
    So rolling on to about ten hours spent on paperwork. I note that recent ADs require MSBs to even see if they apply - really, they won't even tell you the dates of manufacture of cylinders, diaphragms - ADs are just becoming a zoo.

    "Go check AFS SB6, revision 2, to see if you are about to fall out of the sky." That is for an AD that purports to apply to all fuel injected engines. When you do the research, it only applies if you use a part manufactured in five months of 2010. Boo!

    IAs need a JD.
    Likes dgapilot liked this post

  25. #25

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    707
    Post Thanks / Like
    I always said to be a mechanic you also need to be a lawyer, or at least think like one!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  26. #26

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    150
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    I always said to be a mechanic you also need to be a lawyer, or at least BILL like one!
    FIFY.
    Likes dgapilot liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. Airworthiness Directives and Logbooks?
    By bob turner in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 01-28-2014, 08:55 AM
  2. FAA and Airworthiness
    By Shooter in forum Member to Member
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 07-04-2013, 07:52 PM
  3. Airworthiness Directives required for ferry flight
    By Trev in forum Super Cub Repair Facilities
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 02-06-2011, 04:16 PM
  4. Airworthiness Directives
    By bob turner in forum Member to Member
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 05-13-2006, 11:41 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •