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Thread: New kid on the block - Smith Cub

  1. #201
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    And I'm sure that you've found out that cutting square holes is more time consuming than drilling round ones,

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  2. #202
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    And I'm sure that you've found out that cutting square holes is more time consuming than drilling round ones,

    Web
    Oooooh Yes!
    Dan

  3. #203
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Drill holes for W31 series switch breakers and punch holes for instruments and radios. Works much gooder.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  4. #204
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    Electrical / Avionic and the like...Part 2

    I have concluded that I could not attach all the goodies on the instrument panel so a platform to support most of them was in order.

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    Material 2024-T3 ( .032)

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    I also decided that the GRT EIS does not need to be in view because it is wi-fi and link to the IPAD & IPhone. So it was installed right behind the IPAD location on the platform. Easier to access it for troubleshooting.

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    Now for the ILevel 3AW, it needs a surface that will be leveled when the airplane is in the air during a level flight. In order to do so, I made some sort of a monopod tilt head in order to adjust accurately the position of this 3-axis accelerometer. It is also attach to the platform.

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    Getting closer to the wiring task

    Dan

  5. #205
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    You're way overthinking mounting stuff on the instrument panel. You will end up with a heavier and more time consuming panel as a result. What thickness aluminum is the panel? I rarely use thicker than .040" on Cub panels and usually use a stock blank panel (.032" soft?). The bottom edge of the panel is usually bent to a 90º angle. If you leave that bend in place when you make the center cut out, you can simply install a vertical rail on each side of the cut and you're done.

    Question about your ILevel unit; Does it need to be leveled at each flight? If not, pick a spot up/forward from the panel and mount it level while the fuselage is leveled. Once it's leveled and secured in place, it should not require further 'fiddling'.

    Keep stuff simple. The more complicated the install becomes, the more complicated maintenance becomes, in the future. The sanity you save may be your own.

    Web
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  6. #206

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    Wow, that's quite a panel...

  7. #207
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzcola777 View Post
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    Dan
    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    You're way overthinking mounting stuff on the instrument panel. You will end up with a heavier and more time consuming panel as a result. What thickness aluminum is the panel?
    Web
    Dan,
    Are you building a bridge? The thickness of those aluminum angles are way over done. You could reduce their weight by at least 2/3.
    N1PA

  8. #208
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Web, It is too late now...This is what happen when you are retired and have lots of time to think things over and over...I might be losing it, HELP !!!

  9. #209
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Dan,
    Are you building a bridge? The thickness of those aluminum angles are way over done. You could reduce their weight by at least 2/3.
    Sky,
    You're right! See reply to Web below...
    Dan

  10. #210
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Don't be afraid to start over. You have a raw panel there, right now. If you don't think something turned out the way YOU want it, back up and make it right. Maybe buy a blank panel to use as your starting point. I don't want you to stop building, or even build something that 'we' tell you to. I want you to understand that even experimental aircraft are better when light and simple. And starting with a new panel now is better than climbing into your aircraft every day for the next thirty years, groaning when you see the panel. Again.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  11. #211
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    You would be amazed at how strong an angle is when bent from a piece of 2024-T3 .025" or .032". In this application anything thicker is overkill.
    N1PA
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  12. #212
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Web,
    What you've seen so far in this construction is exactly the way I wanted to be. Light & simple is certainly the ultimate goal here but also as I mentioned at the beginning: ''The mission for this bird is to be a Gentleman’s bush plane. I have no intention to be the guy that lands & takes off the shortest distance but rather be the guy that can go anywhere (On & OFF Airport )in a comfortable cockpit well equipped for Day / Night (IFR if I have to).''

    Gents:
    I am now page 6 on this construction...I would be very curious to see with your experience around Supercub, what would be your estimate for the empty weight of my cub. It’s all for fun naturally. I'll have a 0-360 with catto prop and you've seen the list of avionics goodies...I estimate another 18 months of construction before I'm done. I will keep a list with your nickname / name / whatever and see who's closest (+/- 50 pounds).
    Again, just for fun!!!
    Dan

  13. #213
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    1275 pounds.
    N1PA
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  14. #214
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    My estimate: 1175 pounds

  15. #215
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    What wheels and tires are you planning on?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  16. #216
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    What wheels and tires are you planning on?

    Web
    Tire: 6.00 - 6 for test flight
    Wheel & brakes: Matco WHLWI600XLT-1 for PA-18 AXLE (1.5'')
    Dan

  17. #217

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    The work is some of the best I have ever seen so far, but HEAVY. At this rate 1305 lbs
    DENNY
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  18. #218
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzcola777 View Post
    Tire: 6.00 - 6 for test flight
    Wheel & brakes: Matco WHLWI600XLT-1 for PA-18 AXLE (1.5'')
    Dan
    Those even fit anymore on a cub???


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  19. #219
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    As I mentionned earlier, I would be very curious to see with your experience around Supercub, what would be your estimate for the empty weight of my cub. It’s all for fun naturally. I'll have a 0-360 with catto prop and you've seen the list of avionics goodies...I estimate another 18 months of construction before I'm done. I will keep a list with your nickname / name / whatever and see who's closest (+/- 50 pounds).
    Again, just for fun!!!

    DAN’S SMITH CUB

    ESTIMATE EMPTY WEIGHT

    NAME Lbs
    Dan 1175
    Skywagon8a 1275
    Denny 1305

  20. #220
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    Electrical / Avionic and the like…Part 3

    Time to dive into the wiring side of it...I'll tell you I'm not an electrician and this part of the project is a STEEP learning curve for me...Anyway, here we go!!!

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    First, figure out where all these wires go (GRT EIS)... Fun fun fun!!

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    Then connect goodies (Fuel Pump / Landing light / Navigation/Position lights etc...)to wires then to switches

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    Amazing the amount of wires...

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    That is my oldest son Cedrik. He is a Medical Officer / Flight Surgeon in the Canadian Forces and love helping his Dad when he has a chance (That's what he says...)

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    Rocker switches in the instrument panel and getting tested.

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    Installation of the fuselage

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    All wires and connections are identified (at the beginning / middle & end of wires) on a strip and sealed with a clear shrink tube. I also keep a list of what goes where...

    More to follow!

    Dan

  21. #221
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Couple points. First, when it comes to routing and bundling airframe wires, start from the least populated areas and work towards the most populated areas. I.e., route all wires from tail, overhead, and wing roots, to the forward side of the panel area. When all of these are routed, start bundling each run using nylon lacing card. As you work from tie to tie, comb ALL tangles out of the bundle. And I mean all of them. You want them laying parallel in each run as this will make the smallest bundle possible and removes the possibility of damage due to kinks or pinches. When you get to the panel area, route the bundle to the items it terminates to, such as the switches. As the bundle passes each switch, bring the appropriate wire out of the bundle and tie that wire into place, on the bundle, with nylon cord. Only when each wire is in place do you cut it to length and terminate it.

    Second point is that you'll never be able to see/replace a fuse in that location, in flight.

    Web
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  22. #222
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    Just a random thought. There was quite a bit of discussion earlier on the pros and cons of fuses versus circuit breakers. At work, yes I fly for a living, we are absolutely not allowed to reset a circuit breaker except in a dire emergency, with a system that is absolutely critical to continued flight. And if we do reset the circuit breaker it is declared an emergency, followed by a whole Lotta paperwork. The idea being that if a circuit breaker pops there is a problem. And the last thing you want is a inflight fire. I put a fuse panel underneath my panel, and that pretty much prevents me from resetting some thing in flight. There is nothing on a VFR airplane that would be considered “critical to flight” and worthy of an emergency. If you have circuit breakers, it is extremely tempting to reset one in flight. If you do so you risk an in-flight fire. Perhaps the risk is low, but it is there. This is just something I offer for you to think about.

    Best Regards

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  23. #223

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    You move fast so it is hard to get ahead with advice so this may be too late. Before you do the final installation into the plane of the panel and insterments you need to put the boot cowl back on and do it with the boot cowl in place. It is going to be more work that way but it will show you what can and cannot be done from a maintenance standpoint. With the high side panels and shelf in place you may find you cannot reach some of the equipment. The I-pad hole in the middle may save the day but the engine information box is blocking the top part and getting to the back of any thing above or to the outside of the radio stack is going to be hard. Now is the time to find out and move stuff or cut access holes if needed.
    DENNY
    Last edited by DENNY; 10-24-2020 at 12:15 PM.
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  24. #224
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    I'm on the other side of that argument. If you don't wish to reset a circuit breaker, then don't. I believe in having the ability if needed. Some examples are, fuel pump for belly pod, lights at night, or even a nav system in poor weather. Up here, that fuel transfer from belly pod to the fuel tank could mean the difference between making it to a safe place, or not. In those cases, I want the pilot to have the option of resetting the breaker as many times as he sees fit.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  25. #225
    mvivion's Avatar
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    I agree with Web on the circuit breakers vs fuses in small aircraft. I've had circuit breakers trip, waited a few minutes after checking systems and for smoke, then reset, and never had another issue. Voltage spike, or??? Who knows.

    When we installed the Rosti Fernandez retractable skis on a Husky, the "Do Switch" (ie, the activation switch, as opposed to the "skis up, skis down" switch was a 60 amp Potter and Brumfeld circuit breaker. So, to cycle the skis, you selected skis up or down, then pressed the "Do switch", ie: you reset that circuit breaker. The electric motor ran the pump until the ski got to its limit, the hydraulics stalled the electric motor, which tripped the circuit breaker.

    In other words, every time you cycled the gear, that circuit breaker tripped, and was reset each time you needed to reconfigure.

    Those skis are STCd under JAA rules. Which constitutes "Approved Data" to the US. The skis were subsequently STCd in the US. All using a circuit breaker that has to trip to move the skis.

    Because there was no US STC at the time we installed the skis, we got a field approval. The maintenance Inspector who signed off the FA based on the JAA approval, came over the looked at the plane. He almost had a cow when he realized how the gear worked. He insisted on a call to the fellow in Germany who'd got the JAA approval, and asked about the circuit breaker as an actuator, and limit switch. He was asked "Do you know how many times that circuit breaker was required to repeatedly trip safely with overload without failure by YOUR FAA?" Uh, nope..... The answer, if I recall was on the order of 60,000 cycles. Without error. Te follow up question was: "How many times are you going to cycle those skis?". End of conversation.

    I trust circuit breakers, assuming they're properly installed. My policy has always been to verify no smoke, etc, reset the circuit breaker ONCE, and once only. If it comes back on line, all is well. If it trips again, I do NOT reset it, and get it to maintenance.

    But, whatever winds your watch. These are not Boeing or Airbus aircraft.

    MTV
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  26. #226

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    1275 # empty weight and a couple things to add to Denny’s point on serviceability.
    Weight has been discussed, also consider resale. Might be the farthest thing from your mind right now but at some point..
    Adding to many personal touches can de value an aircraft and limit your market.
    Keep it simple.
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  27. #227
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Very interesting and informative discussion. Here is what higher authority have to say about that:

    The NTSB says it’s time to rethink something most GA pilots learned early in their training: If a circuit breaker trips while you’re flying, it’s okay to reset it after allowing a minute or two for it to cool, even if you have no idea what caused it to trip and cut off electrical power to a particular circuit. Only if the breaker trips a second time should you not try to restore power by resetting it—so the thinking has been. This still appears in operating handbooks put out by aircraft manufacturers, as well as in literature on aircraft operations.

    Largely as an outgrowth of the in-flight fire and crash of a Swissair MD-11 in 1998, and an FAA Advisory Circular (AC) issued in 2004, air carriers reviewed the procedures followed by their flight crews in the event of a tripped circuit breaker. Guidance was updated to inform flight crews that if the cause of the breaker trip is unknown, or if the breaker controls a nonessential circuit, it should not be reset. Aircraft operated under Part 121 commonly have indicators, such as circuit breaker markings or coloring or segregated placement of specific circuit breakers in the cockpit, showing which circuit breakers are critical.

    "Special caution is appropriate where fuel pumps and/or FQIS (fuel quantity indicating system) are involved, because of the possibility that arcing could lead to ignition of fuel or fuel vapors. The FAA has issued airworthiness directives (AD) affecting certain airplane makes and models that: (1) prohibit the resetting of fuel boost pump CB’s in flight, and (2) prohibit resetting a fuel boost pump while the airplane is on the ground without first identifying the source of the electrical fault. Because of similar arcing potential, resetting FQIS CB’s should be likewise restricted."

    If a circuit breaker trips while in flight, do not reset the breaker unless you feel it is absolutely necessary for the safe completion of the flight. Since most general aviation airplanes will fly just fine with absolutely no electrical power at all, there really isn't much that is critical to flight. If a fire does occur, realize it is an extreme emergency that may make it impossible to reach an airport only eight nm away. If there is any indication the fire is growing, such as increasing smoke or heat, don't try to make it to an airport, but get the airplane on the ground as soon as possible while trying to avoid damage or injury to people on the ground. You literally may only have a minute or two left before you are overcome by the smoke and heat, or the fire causes damage that makes it impossible to control the airplane.

    All my flying will be VFR, it is an easy choice for me, no breakers / fuses will be resetted in flight.

  28. #228
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    1275 # empty weight and a couple things to add to Denny’s point on serviceability.
    Weight has been discussed, also consider resale. Might be the farthest thing from your mind right now but at some point..
    Adding to many personal touches can de value an aircraft and limit your market.
    Keep it simple.
    Things to think about!
    Thanks Oliver and your name has been added to the list!
    Dan

  29. #229
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Second point is that you'll never be able to see/replace a fuse in that location, in flight.

    Web[/QUOTE]

    I'll show the location of the fuses location soon. What you are looking at (black box) is the Dual Bus

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    You move fast so it is hard to get ahead with advice so this may be too late. Before you do the final installation into the plane of the panel and interments you need to put the boot cowl back on and do it with the boot cowl in place. It is going to be more work that way but it will show you what can and cannot be done from a maintenance standpoint. With the high side panels and shelf in place you may find you cannot reach some of the equipment. The I-pad hole in the middle may save the day but the engine information box is blocking the top part and getting to the back of any thing above or to the outside of the radio stack is going to be hard. Now is the time to find out and move stuff or cut access holes if needed.
    DENNY

    Denny, good points!
    Yes, the boot cowl has been checked numerous time = No problems.
    The EIS is easily removable (4 screws)
    Dan

  31. #231
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to be sh!!!*&y here, but you should go find an airplane with the panel area opened up, or better yet, find an electrical guy doing a rewire. Study how and where the wiring is installed and ask a BUNCH of 'why' and 'how' questions. It's your project but you should find out why you are doing stuff that the rest of us wouldn't. Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  32. #232
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    I'm not trying to be sh!!!*&y here, but you should go find an airplane with the panel area opened up, or better yet, find an electrical guy doing a rewire. Study how and where the wiring is installed and ask a BUNCH of 'why' and 'how' questions. It's your project but you should find out why you are doing stuff that the rest of us wouldn't. Web
    Well, most of the cub have seen so far are a real mess under the dash...My citabria was a nightmare to figure out which wire was going where... Don't worried, once I'm done everything will be accessible and easily identifiable, just need a little bit more time...
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  33. #233
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    Electrical / Avionic and the like…Part 4

    Couple months ago I bought from Guardian Avionics a smart panel mount for the IPad and iPhone. The IPad mount was just perfect but IPhone mount was way too big for the instrument panel. So, my son and I have drawn up a similar design from Guardian but adapted it to my instrument panel. To do this we grabbed the 3D printer and put it to work.

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    Just a glimpse of how fun it is to play with a computer

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    3D printer at work... Mind you it is an early sample built to test the concept so the finish is rough due to the speed used.

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    Small trap that pushes the IPhone out of the chassis. To remove it– just slide the iPhone, pull the knob on the right.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Testing the panel mount.

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    Built-in ports for the Apple Lightning plug and a 3.5mm audio cable help keep cables safely and securely positioned behind the panel, allowing you the ability to connect to power, data, and audio without the cord mess. Also, It allows the iPhone to be docked in seconds, fully connected to power.


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    That will do the job!

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    Printed a bigger knob. Easier to pull the mechanism that ejects the iphone.

    Experimental is sooooo great!!

    Dan
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  34. #234

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    Are you doing a swing out mount? If so all wires/cables should come out the left side of the firewall so you can swing the mount without disconnecting anything. If you run wires and cables out both sides you will have to disconnect stuff when you swing the engine.
    DENNY
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  35. #235
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Are you doing a swing out mount? If so all wires/cables should come out the left side of the firewall so you can swing the mount without disconnecting anything. If you run wires and cables out both sides you will have to disconnect stuff when you swing the engine.
    DENNY
    No, the regular engine mount.

  36. #236
    Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzcola777 View Post
    No, the regular engine mount.

    The "regular" is a "swing-out" mount so if you think you will ever swing it out make provisions now. Looks good so far. The avionics is a learning curve no matter who you are....

    My guess 1370lbs.
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  37. #237
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The "regular" is a "swing-out" mount so if you think you will ever swing it out make provisions now. Looks good so far. The avionics is a learning curve no matter who you are....

    My guess 1370lbs.
    So the original cub came with the swing-out? See, I did not know that! One more thing I learned today about the cub.
    OK Grant, your name is on the list!....1370 Lbs, Ouch!!
    Dan

  38. #238
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Are you doing a swing out mount? If so all wires/cables should come out the left side of the firewall so you can swing the mount without disconnecting anything. If you run wires and cables out both sides you will have to disconnect stuff when you swing the engine.
    DENNY
    Worked on a well know manufacture rebuild cub from Alaska. They had stuff running out of every side. There’s a reason piper did things they way they did. The only thing you usually have to disconnect is the tach cable. Watch out for the stock exhaust hitting the boot cowl when you swing it


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  39. #239
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Worked on a well know manufacture rebuild cub from Alaska. They had stuff running out of every side. There’s a reason piper did things they way they did. The only thing you usually have to disconnect is the tach cable. Watch out for the stock exhaust hitting the boot cowl when you swing it


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I remember that. You uncowled it and said "thank God we don't have to swing the engine". And then we ended up having to swing the engine.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is how Piper routed things.
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    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  40. #240
    Buzzcola777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Here is how Piper routed things.
    Steve,
    Thanks for the photos, very nice!
    Question: do the braces holding the nose bowl swing with the engine or you have to disconnect them?
    Dan

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