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Thread: Phillips 66 X/C SAE 20W50 Use in Honda CRF450L motor?

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    8GCBC's Avatar
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    Phillips 66 X/C SAE 20W50 Use in Honda CRF450L motor?

    Hello Engine Gurus,

    Any guidance on running Aviation Motor oil(s) (i.e. Phillips X/C) in a Honda and/or Yamaha motorcycle/ATV? Finding SJ oil on the road isn’t easy. I have not used it but, it sure would be convenient not to stock several types of oil.

    Also, would seem to work well for the drive chain?

    Note:

    Very satisfied using Phillips 66 X/C SAE 20W50 in Lycoming O540s & 0360s
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    Thank you!
    2018 R44
    IA/A&P, ATP, SES, CFII, MEI, Rotor PPL (2500 TT)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXI48e1heuo

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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I've been using Aeroshell and Phillips multi grade oil for 20 years in everything I have thats air cooled. Harley, lawnmower.......
    Once you change the oil running aircraft oil and see that it drains out like oil and not water like Automotive oil you'll never go back. And it's cheaper, I run it for 100hrs

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    I've been using Aeroshell and Phillips multi grade oil for 20 years in everything I have thats air cooled. Harley, lawnmower.......
    Once you change the oil running aircraft oil and see that it drains out like oil and not water like Automotive oil you'll never go back.

    Glenn
    Hi Glenn,

    Thank you. I believe you made a good decision. I know it’s expensive but, also is stocking several types of oil (and Honda SJ is hard to get).

    99% of Auto Oil (street) is formulated to be “Energy Conserving”. Honda wants SJ (non-energy conserving”) not SN (energy conserving) because of the gearbox using the same lubricant.

    My conclusion: If “energy conservation” was high on my list, I certainly would not fly aircraft. Would be better to get back into mountain biking! Haha.

    I appreciate the guidance,
    Ted
    2018 R44
    IA/A&P, ATP, SES, CFII, MEI, Rotor PPL (2500 TT)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXI48e1heuo

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    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Haha!

    My only concern would be the wet clutch. I run Rotella T4 in my Valkyrie because it's good and not too expensive, thought it hasn't gotten much riding since the kids were born. I use the same oil in my 1985 22R-E.

    The "energy conserving" or "friction modifier" oils can make a wet clutch slip. Otherwise you should be good!
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    Haha!

    My only concern would be the wet clutch. I run Rotella T4 in my Valkyrie because it's good and not too expensive, thought it hasn't gotten much riding since the kids were born. I use the same oil in my 1985 22R-E.

    The "energy conserving" or "friction modifier" oils can make a wet clutch slip. Otherwise you should be good!
    Hi Cameron,

    Thank you for the input. Agreed, may even be better than COTS (Commercial Off the Shelf) Motorcycle SJ.

    Ted
    2018 R44
    IA/A&P, ATP, SES, CFII, MEI, Rotor PPL (2500 TT)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXI48e1heuo

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Easy answer.....do a used oil analysis with Honda SJ or 20W-50 and compare. https://www.blackstone-labs.com/about-us/ Let them help you decide. Lawnmowers will run on anything but are cheap to replace. Wet clutch MC oils like JASO MA or MB qualified lubes. Check the specs on the container.

    Gary
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Easy answer.....do a used oil analysis with Honda SJ or 20W-50 and compare. https://www.blackstone-labs.com/about-us/ Let them help you decide. Lawnmowers will run on anything but are cheap to replace. Wet clutch MC oils like JASO MA or MB qualified lubes. Check the specs on the container.

    Gary
    Hi Gary,

    Very good point. I believe in second opinions. Looks like my bike is getting her first taste on Phillips X/C !

    Mahalo,
    Ted
    2018 R44
    IA/A&P, ATP, SES, CFII, MEI, Rotor PPL (2500 TT)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXI48e1heuo

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    It's a water-cooled engine so oil temps should not be an issue. Aircraft oils are formulated to be compatible with starter clutches like Continental uses so shouldn't affect a MC wet clutch with low friction additives. Try it and run a UOA. They'll tell you what's in the oil and if wear metals are higher than normal as found in their database.

    Gary
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    It's a water-cooled engine so oil temps should not be an issue. Aircraft oils are formulated to be compatible with starter clutches like Continental uses so shouldn't affect a MC wet clutch with low friction additives. Try it and run a UOA. They'll tell you what's in the oil and if wear metals are higher than normal as found in their database.

    Gary
    Hi Gary,

    Yes, the Honda CRF450L is water cooled, EFI, and runs an ECM with a data port. It’s a modern design except the wet clutch being the classic power transfer.

    I have a tendency to run at very high RPMs. I massively abuse downshifting for braking etc. I sometimes believe I’m Malcom Smith running the Baja 1000. I’m really hard on my motorcycles. Any analysis will need to factor in the how I ride the bike, which is pretty d—-m hard!

    Thank you for the guidance!

    Mahalo!
    Ted
    2018 R44
    IA/A&P, ATP, SES, CFII, MEI, Rotor PPL (2500 TT)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXI48e1heuo

  10. #10
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    If UOA's show increased wear metals with aircraft oil add some CamGuard. That should lower the rate of wear. They make it for aircraft and motorcycle engines so maybe it varies in contents and pricing.

    Gary
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Here's a vid on a UOA for the CRF450L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sIxaqyDfuk

    If run like it was stolen it appears to be potentially tough on oil. For that reason I'd not go for cheap and easy as aircraft oil contains nothing like modern MC lubes. There may be better oils than Honda's products particularly PAO or Ester based synthetics. Pay now-pay later is a choice but base it upon used oil analysis not some advertising.

    Gary
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Here's a vid on a UOA for the CRF450L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sIxaqyDfuk

    If run like it was stolen it appears to be potentially tough on oil. For that reason I'd not go for cheap and easy as aircraft oil contains nothing like modern MC lubes. There may be better oils than Honda's products particularly PAO or Ester based synthetics. Pay now-pay later is a choice but base it upon used oil analysis not some advertising.

    Gary
    Hi Gary,

    Excellent video for CFR450L owners!

    There are so many virtual tools out there now to make better judgments. YouTube, Oil Analysis, forums, ebooks etc.

    Once I was using an engine driven air compressor (5HP Briggs & Stratton) at the marina (on the dock) and it ran out of gas. I had the bright idea to fill it with Coleman White Gasoline. It started up fine but, then started to detonate and literally bounced around in a life threatening manner. Luckily I grabbed it and shut it down! We drove and bought unleaded after that. It still ran OK. There was no YouTube in those days!

    I appreciate you emphasizing the empirical aspect of decision making.

    Mahalo!
    Ted
    2018 R44
    IA/A&P, ATP, SES, CFII, MEI, Rotor PPL (2500 TT)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXI48e1heuo

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    I just googled, I had no idea that white gas had such low octane!
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    8GCBC's Avatar
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    My internal fear of the unknowns guided me to my happy place...The Honda Dealership. Decided if I spent $12K, on the motorcycle, I might as well spend $30.00 on a 600 mile oil/filter change. Honda parts aren’t inexpensive as we all know.


    Purchased GN4 SJ today @ Sportsman Honda
    Florence, Oregon
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    Decided not to get into the oil R&D (Research and Development) business. The resident mechanic at the Honda dealer said he believes Phillips 66 X/C would be fine in the CRF450L, and I totally agree. But, I don’t want to find out the hard way either.

    Thank you folks for joining in the thread. I agree with all the guidance. Sorry for it stirring up the debate and then letting fear take over!
    2018 R44
    IA/A&P, ATP, SES, CFII, MEI, Rotor PPL (2500 TT)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXI48e1heuo

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Well....your choice is sound but if the Honda mechanic's believe were correct then all the major oil refiners and bulk to finished product formulators could do away with costly detergents and anti-wear additives. Just include some Group III base stock (like 20W) with long chain viscosity improvers and a mild flavor dispersant to reap the profit. If your Honda is tough on oil I'd use a full or blended synthetic from the HP line, but without testing you'll never know how good either choice might be. I've owned 68 motorcycles since 1960 and never realized we were as cheap as aircraft owners.

    Gary
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Where things can get prone to wear or break is during the off-power periods. Once warmed up wear during normal cruise and acceleration are as expected. Providing the lube's thin boundary layer and antiwear additives protect, cylinder liner wear may not be an issue. What tends to cause wear is when the piston and rod bearings stop driving the engine an instead the transmission takes over as in downshifting braking. Normal cylinder pressures under combustion load keep the rings expanded against the cylinder wall and the bearings experience their designed load factors. Engine braking reverses the loads to some extent. To avoid that issue (plus higher rear tire wear) high compression/performance motorcycles now often employ slipper clutches that open the clutch disc pack on deceleration to minimize overdriving the engine (rpm and loads) through the transmission. Edit: Similar to a sprag clutch on a helicopter between the rotor and transmission drive output but for different reasons.

    Regardless, frequent oil and filter changes per the manufacturer are there for a reason based upon their testing and warranty.

    Recall when aircraft engines can fail....on first power reduction after takeoff or climb. Unloads or lets the prop drive the engine and sometimes they go Boom! Watched it happen in an R-985 in a Goose once as a passenger and still can hear the main rod letting go. Might have flown forever in cruise.

    Edit: https://www.superbikeunlimited.com/s...19-suterclutch

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 05-20-2020 at 04:33 PM.
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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Once I was using an engine driven air compressor (5HP Briggs & Stratton) at the marina (on the dock) and it ran out of gas. I had the bright idea to fill it with Coleman White Gasoline. It started up fine but, then started to detonate and literally bounced around in a life threatening manner.
    This reminds me of a long forgotten episode in my dumbness saga. My car was out of gas, and I didn't have any gas in cans. But I did have some acetone. Made it to the gas station, but it sure did ping on the way! 348 Chevy. Perry, don't say it - - -
    Gordon

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    A Chev 348 and the Beachboy's "she's real fine my 409" gives wood. Fine business Gordon. Compression has consequences.

    Gary
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    Bayou Navigator's Avatar
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    Do they run the phillips multi 25w60 in those radial engines?
    When everything is going wrong, and the world is bearing down on you.......GO FULL THROTTLE!!!

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    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Well, yes, but 25W60 is the Phillips radial-specific motor oil. Flat engines use Phillips XC 20W50.

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    Just gonna get straight to it. I’m trying to find what would be the best to run through a Pratt & Whitney R985. Phillips 25w60 or straight aeroshell 100 plus? Temperatures here seldom get below 27F and above 98F.
    When everything is going wrong, and the world is bearing down on you.......GO FULL THROTTLE!!!

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayou Navigator View Post
    Just gonna get straight to it. I’m trying to find what would be the best to run through a Pratt & Whitney R985. Phillips 25w60 or straight aeroshell 100 plus? Temperatures here seldom get below 27F and above 98F.
    You mean Aeroshell 100W. Straight Aeroshell 100 is used for break in.
    N1PA

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    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    This reminds me of a long forgotten episode in my dumbness saga. My car was out of gas, and I didn't have any gas in cans. But I did have some acetone. Made it to the gas station, but it sure did ping on the way! 348 Chevy. Perry, don't say it - - -
    I don't know how I missed this Gordon. No snide remarks, but only because of my tardiness. I'm familiar with the old "W" series Chevy engine. They had a goofy combustion chamber design. Basically an overhead valve flathead. Off-the-chart coolness factor though.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

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    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayou Navigator View Post
    Do they run the phillips multi 25w60 in those radial engines?
    I have heard some people run this in 470's with low oil pressure issues...

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayou Navigator View Post
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    Just gonna get straight to it. I’m trying to find what would be the best to run through a Pratt & Whitney R985. Phillips 25w60 or straight aeroshell 100 plus? Temperatures here seldom get below 27F and above 98F.
    I ran 100W for the first 100 hours or so when I had my Howard with an R985. Switched to Phillips 25W60 for the next 500+ hours I had the airplane. Oil temperatures went down about 5 degrees, oil consumption went down about 1/4 qt an hour, but the amount it leaked while sitting in the hangar increased some. I had the Alden Engineering snot box for when it was in the hangar. I also used metric O rings (forget the size) on the oil check valve by the screen, that slowed the oil that would bypass the check valve while sitting.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    I ran 100W for the first 100 hours or so when I had my Howard with an R985. Switched to Phillips 25W60 for the next 500+ hours I had the airplane. Oil temperatures went down about 5 degrees, oil consumption went down about 1/4 qt an hour, but the amount it leaked while sitting in the hangar increased some. I had the Alden Engineering snot box for when it was in the hangar. I also used metric O rings (forget the size) on the oil check valve by the screen, that slowed the oil that would bypass the check valve while sitting.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    We had a Beech 18 around here that had the DEC/ENCON approved equipment installed with the appropriate brick under both engines


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    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Bayou Navigator's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses. Extremely helpful.
    When everything is going wrong, and the world is bearing down on you.......GO FULL THROTTLE!!!

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