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Thread: Rather Be On the Ground Wishing I Was In the Air: High Winds

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    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Rather Be On the Ground Wishing I Was In the Air: High Winds

    In January I flew my Super Cub to Montana so that the Meggers could recover the wings and do some mods. The weather wasn't cooperative (low ceilings, high winds, snow), so after watching the weather for several days a window opened up and I launched from MY18 (Lino Airpark) at 0530 headed west to KBHK, Baker Montana, home of Baker Air Services. The winds at Baker had been gusty for the few days before the trip, out of the NW but were forecast to be 300 degrees at 10 knots gusting to 20 for a noon time arrival. It was cold (OAT 10 degrees F) and I had blocked out patients from my office (pre-COVID-19) for that day and had arranged for a friend to fly out, pick me up and return to the Twin Cities. I knew that I had a slot reserved with Roger and Darin Meggers for the wing recover and didn't want to tie up their services any longer than necessary.

    The ceilings were 1500 overcast and winds on the surface were right smack on my nose at 15 knots, 25 knots forecast at 3000 feet...so I stayed low all the way to my planned refueling stop in ND. Really not much of an ordeal thus far, and I had texted Roger for a weather update and was pleased to hear that the winds were good at 10:00 a.m., just as forecast. I climbed back into the cockpit for the last leg into Baker and launched into blue skies. Flying in high winds have never been a problem for me, as I learned to fly in Wichita KS, which is arguably one of the windiest places in the U.S. If you couldn't handle winds you simply weren't going to fly much in Kansas.

    It became a bit bumpy down low as I approached the Badlands so I decided to climb up a bit, but with that came 25 knot headwinds...so I played off comfort vs. winds and flew at 700-1000 ft agl and it was more comfortable. I texted Roger a few times to give him an eta and 30 minutes out I received a text from him...
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    Now, I don't mind strong winds, but I know that my cub flies just fine at 30 knots relative wind and were I at home, and on the ground, I would have elected to just sit this one out. That really wasn't an option now.

    Here is the runway info for KBHK:
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    ...so runway length and direction were not a problem, and the airport looks like this:
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    You can see the hangar that Roger was referring to and it was sitting right where it needed to be. I knew that both he and Darin were there, and their help was imperative. I continued on.

    When I was 10 nm out the ASOS read out winds 300 30 gusting to 40. Gulp. I remember thinking about tales I have heard from some of you folks in which people had to hold onto the wings to keep the aircraft down and I considered Roger's last text. I hoped he had that hangar door open.

    I decided to touch down on the angled taxiway, which was just about exactly lined up with the winds and I saw that Roger, sure enough, was standing in the hangar with the door wide open. A beautiful sight.

    I touched down and did my usual "unloading" of the wings, pulling back on the stick only to go back up into the air and I found myself levitating there, needing to put more than a little power to move forward relative to the ground. I was literally flying with the tail in level flight configuration, essentially, moving to the open hangar. Just as I approached the wind break created by the hangar I was able to lower the tail, decrease power and fly it into the hangar.

    I was relieved to be in that beautiful hangar and when I looked over at Roger he was just smiling, greeting me like after any other flight, just another day in Baker MT.

    I have been meaning to write about this, as I would like to hear how some of you have dealt with winds far greater than expected. I am aware of landing across the runway if the wind direction so dictated, but this experience was pretty unsettling.

    OK, folks, educate me, would you? Thanks.

    Randy
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    supercrow's Avatar
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    You don't need any education. Aren't a lot of cub pilots that could handle that as well as you did. Well done!
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    Good job Randy! Eaton and I have one of those stories. Involved landing sideways on the numbers at Durango while USAir was taxing to the terminal... they liked the show.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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    brown bear's Avatar
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    Last time I was there Baker had a nice pilot lounge with a shower
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    Unlike many airports that I have visited, where tower will offer, “ The grass between the runways is available if you prefer ,” I operate out of a what I consider a GA unfriendly airport. If I return home to un-forecasted winds, I have a choice between testing my crosswind skills, or a call to the local fsdo that airport ops will make for me (if I chose a better option off runway.) If the winds pick up, I divert 12 miles away. $&##@
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    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoJo View Post
    Unlike many airports that I have visited, where tower will offer, “ The grass between the runways is available if you prefer ,” I operate out of a what I consider a GA unfriendly airport. If I return home to un-forecasted winds, I have a choice between testing my crosswind skills, or a call to the local fsdo that airport ops will make for me (if I chose a better option off runway.) If the winds pick up, I divert 12 miles away. $&##@
    And just what good does their phone call do?? Sounds like a case of "meow!" One in a while a banner plane needs to land with the banner. No big deal at all when properly accomplished. Some places want to make it an "emergency" and call out the troops. Nothing like a large red truck blocking the taxiway when you just need to get off the active and pull the banner off. That's life. Pray for peace.

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    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    MoJo, I understand. It is my feeling that I would rather ask forgiveness in situations like you describe, rather than risk bending up my airplane. I also understand diverting to a more friendly airport, as not all airports (or towers, for that matter) are created equal.

    Randy

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    From my experience and others, already done the “ask for forgiveness,” so now diverting.
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    Sorry for the hijack of this thread Randy, I felt like venting.

    Nice job on Keeping your cool and not stopping the aircraft control after the wheels touched down.
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    My primary instructor was a senior tower controller and told me as long as you touchdown somewhere “on the runway” you’re good, never found a reg that says it has to be along the axis of the runway.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    My primary instructor was a senior tower controller and told me as long as you touchdown somewhere “on the runway” you’re good, never found a reg that says it has to be along the axis of the runway.
    Works for steady winds, but risky in gusty conditions.
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    Rather Be On the Ground Wishing I Was In the Air: High Winds

    Returning from OshKosh winds were gusting to 47 knots not aligned with the runway. I tried hovering down on the ramp just to the wind lee side of my hangar but the turbulence coming off the buildings had me hitting all the stops on the controls.

    I made another approach and got down on some grass just off the ramp. The local crop duster heard my first approach and came barreling
    across the ramp in his F250 and shielded the cub from enough wind to get taxied to my hangar. As he hung on the upwind wing I got the door open and shoved the cub inside.

    Yep, I live in Kansas.
    Last edited by flynlow; 05-17-2020 at 09:15 PM.

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    Nice Story Dr. Randy,

    Here is my "There I was wind story." You have, after all, asked for like experiences.


    In May of 2011, after OK-14, I was returning to Denver. I know you were there because you were camped nearby and looked at my Cub.

    As OK-14 Fly In was ending, I made the decision to take off just after Brandon Jewett. He had flown his newly minted SUPER CHUB to OK Mike's fly In. He had left about an hour before for his return to Denver. I still needed a top off for fuel at a nearby airport.

    At the time, I only had the basic PA-18 Fuel tanks. There was a window of departure ahead of a fast moving warm front. Brandon had left already and I needed a little extra fuel to make it to Larned KS. (KLQR) Larned was Brandon's recommendation and he had just called me from there. Mike graciously sold me 5 gallons of fuel from his Cub to be able to make it to KLQR as a gas stop and still have a VFR reserve. I had KGBD and Hays KHYS as alternates if needed, The reason I could not take off and land close to TUL to top off fuel was time. The front would overtake us at OK-14 area. Brandon was ahead and reported that It was still good winds, weather, and no turbulence. I launched roughly about one hour behind him. On arrival a few miles from KLQR the front caught me. Moderate turbulence. The AWOS at both KHYS and KGBD was still reporting less than 4 kts.

    (First lesson, Super Chub has a faster indicated and true airspeed than Jerry's PA-18 flat bladed Borer. Most of the time this does not matter so much.)

    Now, KLQR was reporting winds at 170 40 gusting to 55 kts. The runway directly into the wind that day at Larned was 17-35. Plenty long and wide for a Cub. I was down to my VFR reserve. I now reasoned that here was the airport with winds directly off the nose and I still had about 5 gallons of maneuver fuel left. If I chanced pressing on into the the siren song AWOS of 4kts ahead at Hays or Great Bend, I would arrive and still have to fight winds with almost no fuel.

    I chose Larned. On the first pass, I could not keep the Cub wheels down after landing. (I tried several times on the 4200 ft 17-35 runway. I finally rejected and went to plan B. On the next attempt, I flew as near the surface of runway 17 as possible waiting in between gusts to attempt wheels down. I flew to just short of the end of the runway 90 degree turn off, hovered for a few seconds and set the cub down. I brought it to a stop and waited, nose into the wind, holding the brakes. Now all I had to do as get up the nerve to turn right, all the while hoping that I would not be hanging upside down shortly. I finally made the decision to turn right onto the taxiway with all the appropriate flight controls into the wind. I managed to keep it on the taxiway and make slow headway.

    Fortunately, (there is always luck involved) The fuel pump was up wind and to my left. I turned into the wind and taxied to the pump. Here I sat in the Cub at idle, brakes set and waited. This was at 5 PM, Sunday on memorial day weekend. The airport FBO was closed. I finally got out, my full body weight on the the strut. Again another seemingly endless wait, until I could get chocks on all wheels. My impression, later was that it was like being tied to the foremast of an English square rigged sailing ship in a storm. It was just not raining yet! The fuel was self service, so I managed finally to let go and to get fuel into both tanks. I figured I needed as much weight in the aircraft as possible. I took the successful chance, all the while reviewing possible options.

    After fueling, now, here I am again, hanging onto the strut in 40+ knots winds. All the while trying to come up with a plan. My tie downs were designed for ground not concrete and I did not have enough line on board to reach any attachment points to secure the Cub. I waited and gradually let go of the strut to watch the behaviour of the Cub as it sat chocked on all wheels. I had already placed the seat belt on the control stick. Finally, waiting there in the lee of the gas pump, I arrived at the decision to make a break for the airport office, about 30 yards away,and seek help. I ran to the door. It was locked with a combination lock! I took the chance that the combination lock was set up for pilots like me. 1215. Volia! I am in. (Once again luck!) I quickly looked around and found the Airport Manager's posted telephone number. I called him on my cell phone. He answered and I immediately pleaded stupidity and need for help! I tell him that my Cub will lift off at 30+kts and that I am in desperate need hangar space. He and his son were just getting ready to BBQ. He told me had just left the airport but that he would be there to help me in 20 minutes. Relief! I returned to the Cub and held on to the struts again until he and his son showed up 20 minutes later. All the while the winds became stronger and the Cub kept trying to fly. Several times I pulled the wing down as it lifted up several inches out of the chocks. Again, being in the lee of the pump and keeping my weight on the wing strut help to keep it down. When the airport manager and his son arrived, he opened a large downwind hangar, and then the three of us, one on the tail, and one on each strut backed the Cub downwind and into the hangar. We parked it next to his Ag Plane.

    Lucky! (Yes) Experience! (Of course.) Remember, "Experience is where you get the lesson first and then the course later!

    The airport manager and his son were game changers. The manager gave me the Airport Curtsey Police Car and led me to a local hotel. I spent that night and Monday, Memorial day, in Larned KS. Of course, with a fast moving warm front then arrives the cold front with the associated rain and storms. In the middle of the night, I looked out the hotel window to see the small trees next to the parking lot bent to the North. Thunder, wind, and lightning all a At 3 am I looked again and now the trees were bent South, the other direction. On well back to bed. This was kind of a practice "self isolation" with plenty of time to reflect on how lucky I was and how stupid I was for trying and catch up with the Super Chub. I should have stayed at OK-14. At least I would not have been by myself. I did however, get to see the old Army Fort, Fort Larned.

    A wind humbled Cub pilot.

    Jerry Bradley
    If the pilot fears to test his skills with the elements, he has chosen the wrong profession.....Lindbergh
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  14. #14
    BradleyG's Avatar
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    Please for give the spelling errors in my previous post. I had them corrected and the the internet ate my unsaved copy. I resurrected the websites autosaved version and did not pick up that my internet failure happened after I had made changes that were not auto saved. That is my story and I will stick to it!

    Jerry
    If the pilot fears to test his skills with the elements, he has chosen the wrong profession.....Lindbergh

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    Every time I fly my Cub North from New Hampshire, I count on numerous days in the flatlands with 30 plus knot winds.. Never been disappointed yet. My first solo trip to Alaska was a brand new Cessna 150 from Wichita to Anchorage in October. I was 18 or 19 at the time and all my flight time was in Alaska. When I landed in North Dakota on the first day of the trip, the wind was howling and I was nervous as a cat trying to taxi to the ramp. After I was safely parked I asked the controller how long it had been blowing like that. Without hesitation he replied “since July”.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoJo View Post
    Works for steady winds, but risky in gusty conditions.
    To me the secret to big winds and cross winds is not in your skill or my lack thereof but in understanding how the wind reacts around between and over obstacles and how you use it to your benefit while avoiding the bad places like Steve Pierce wrote about at his airport a few days ago.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 05-18-2020 at 02:35 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  17. #17
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Practice.

    Go fly when it is windy.

    Practice when it is light and work your way up.

    No sweat when your on a trip and you have the skills to manage the conditions.

  18. #18
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    Many years ago I was ferrying a J3 from Alabama to NY. On the last leg it was pretty windy, not as bad as you guys but enough that I picked an airport in NJ for my last fuel stop that had two runways, one of which favored the wind ok. When I got there there was only one runway. Calling on Unicom got no results. So I landed on the only thing that looked like a runway in a direct X wind. It worked. I got fuel and I noticed a taxiway going past a line of hangars that was pointing into the wind. I asked if they would mind if I took off on that.

    The manager said “ you mean runway 31?,Sure”

    Don’t know if he was serious or kidding. The thing had no marking at all. But it worked fine.

  19. #19
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    In Billings they wont let us land in the grass or on taxiways so you get creative. Last time was 28 knot direct crosswind. So I am approaching from the south on an 10/28 runway. Made straight to the middle of the runway, completely perpendicular to the runway. Told the tower I was going to do this. Landed no problem. Did not even make it to the center line of the 150 foot wide runway. Bet the tower enjoyed that. Gave them an idea of what it is like to fly a cub. My instructor always said if you cant fly in the wind you cant fly in Montana. One time I had documented ground speed of 5 mph in my 170 with airspeed of 90. Don't know if that gps speed was forward or backward. This was at 1000 agl over the airport. Winds on the ground at that time where calm. Took off and could not leave the airport environment. Downwind leg took about one second.
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  20. #20
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradleyG View Post
    Please for give the spelling errors in my previous post. I had them corrected and the the internet ate my unsaved copy. I resurrected the websites autosaved version and did not pick up that my internet failure happened after I had made changes that were not auto saved. That is my story and I will stick to it!

    Jerry
    Jerry, thanks for sharing this great story! I got off lucky...

    I'm not sure if you knew it, but Larned his home of the State of Kansas Mental Health Hospital. I spent time there (not as a patient) when I was a medical student. I am glad you didn't ask to visit their hospital...if you had divulged that you are a supporter of Supercub.org you might still be in Larned!!!



    Randy

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    courierguy's Avatar
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    When faced with an issue of high winds at a towered airport, (which I avoid like the plague, maybe use one a couple times a year) that may present a problem out of my comfort zone due to the runway orientation, I always remember that the guy in the tower has his job to protect. So, I am not going to ask him (and make him perhaps liable if it goes wrong) if I can land on the taxi way or the grassy median, assuming they are directly into the wind, I have just done it, and safely. I have never been called out on this, luckily having a tower crew with some common sense helps, and it goes without saying other traffic wasn't an issue. At a Unicom'd strip, same deal, "just do it." Any airport manager who gets his panties in a wad can kiss my ass, safety first, seriously. The main thing I remember, is that a tower or airport manager are not going to spend a few hundred hours of time with me helping to repair any damage to my homebuilt, that'll fall on me. Forget about the expense, though the lost flying time would hurt also. I'll do, and have, whatever it takes to get on the ground safely, as long as it doesn't cause issues with other traffic, and deal with any repercussions, if any, later, no problemo! Gusting to 35+ out there right now, a timely thread.

  22. #22

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    Landing a helicopter on a ramp at a towered airport usually comes with the caveat “landing on the ramp is at your own risk”. This has always made me wonder if there’s somewhere I can land that’s at someone else’s risk?????
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  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    To me the secret to big winds and cross winds is not in your skill or my lack thereof but in understanding how the wind reacts around between and over obstacles and how you use it to your benefit while avoiding the bad places like Steve Pierce wrote about at his airport a few days ago.
    Agree with the above, although one's skill (and my lack thereof) factors in as well.

    Winds figure heavily at the cabin: Designing the strip at the cabin took into account: a) there is almost never (in the 30+ years that I've been there) a significant N-S wind; b) hence the strip runs E-W; c) when it blows seriously, it is almost always from the East and it creates some huge terrain effect turbulence (regardless of any other turbulence) from the dips and ridges at the end of the strip; d) hence....put the strip in 3x as long as needed, thus when the wind blows, one can land on the middle third away from the terrain effect turbulence on either end.

    When the normally 10-minute trip from Palmer takes 20-25 minutes, one knows it will be bad juju on landing....even with the above planning, it took 3 attempts to get down one windy fall afternoon. Once on the ground, while the -12 wasn't flying like Dr. Randy's, any relaxing of control inputs meant that it was promptly moving backwards/sideways/twisting and out of control...so what does one do while on the ground, but unable to "stop flying", i.e. no help available, no ability to shut down and tie-down?

    One simply flies away....I was airborne before I had the throttle fully open, gained 600' in a second or two, and probably carried a mile or more whilst making the departing-the-area-180-turn. Was back over Palmer in something less than 5 minutes, back over Moose Run in about 12 - 15, which is really moving for my fat-12.

    Practice and more practice is good at developing skills. Approaching old age tends to also increase the "heck with it, I don't need to go today" factor.
    Back In Alaska
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  24. #24
    courierguy's Avatar
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    I just put in a x wind strip, as in pulled sage brush and mowed whatever native grass was there, that's it. It's on a ridge on my 40 acres, about 700' long, with a very slight grade, about 4%, landing up. My main strip is 400' long and 14%, I made this one longer just for what you just said: so I can land in the middle, as the end has some upwind nearby rolly poly hills that may make it squirrley. To deal with the issue of "I've landed, have no wingman, now I can't get out of the plane without it taking off again," I plan to dig two holes for the main gear, gently sloped to enter (to make it easier to pull back out), squared at the back and about half the diameter or maybe more or the 29" Airstreaks. That bit lesser angle of attack may make the difference someday. Tie downs of course (cris/crossed fenceposts, like big Fly Ties) where needed. I gave some thought to some kind of apparatus that I could taxi up to, and then be auto secured, but gave it up as too Rube Goldbergish. Some kind of u shaped thing that would capture the tires, once they were in the parking holes, design work continues.....maybe.
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  25. #25
    Cubus Maximus's Avatar
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    There I was... during my old FCM days, the north/south rows between the hangars acted almost like a venturi. There was at least 1 time I had to have the Thunderbird fuel truck block the wind in the row so we could turn the Cub sideways and get it into the hangar.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by behindpropellers View Post
    Practice.

    Go fly when it is windy.

    Practice when it is light and work your way up.

    No sweat when your on a trip and you have the skills to manage the conditions.
    Good advice. My cub is my only personal airplane, and all my flying in it is optional. There is a setting in my EFB app Click image for larger version. 

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    That allows me to make a scarier look to my personal maximum wind (my don’t go colors). Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	48888 I’ve been practicing my way up, but a good weather briefing has kept me from revisiting lessons I’ve already learned.

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