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Soooo, new PA-18, prop strike

Troy Hamon said:
There is a huge difference between the behavior of the brakes with 31" Bushwheels and the smaller 8.50x6s. The brakes seem fairly optimized for the larger tires, and feel right. They are extremely touchy with the smaller tires, and minimal application is necessary or they completely grab.
Click to expand...
The booster brakes were designed and intended to be used with the double puck brakes on the larger diameter tires. The larger diameter tires have a greater leverage against the brakes thus need a higher pressure. The stock Scott bladder master cylinders provide adequate pressure for the 8:50-6s. So when the booster are used with the smaller tires, they are the equivalent of using boosted power brakes. Very touchy. Many a foot which is used to pushing hard on the old brakes (including airliner brakes) has bent a prop with the booster master cylinders.
 
bob turner said:
It doesn't make any difference how nose-heavy you are, or how good your brakes are, or how big your tires are. Don't jam on the brakes at slow taxi speeds
Click to expand...

Agree. I have had the tail of both a Travel air, and a Stearman a foot or better off the ground. Neither had remotely good brakes, but either could put the nose down given the right jab at the right time.

Pete,
I don't doubt the airplane is fwd on the CG, with the limited prop choice and typical panel / accy's, I don't think you can have a CC180 any other way.
I just don't believe that is the primary problem here.
I also don't think you'll get a CC180 to land as slow as it can without judicious use of power.
Comparing your whirlwind driven Smith cub is like comparing apples to angle iron.

Take care, Rob
 
Thanks Rob,
I must be mistaken, as I have been under the impression that the CC180 was just an exact pirated copy of Piper's PA-18 with the added usual modifications. No certificated airplane should run out of elevator during flare to a landing when operated within it's certified limitations.
 
So is this a PA18-150 built by Cub Crafters under the spares and surplus loophole or is it a true CC18-180? The early data plate Cubs that Cub Crafters built under Piper's Type Certificate Data Sheet had Lee Budde fuselages that did not have the correct angle of incidence, that was later corrected. I have flown them and see no more nose forward tendancy than any other 180 hp Super Cub with a legal prop. The Sensenich prop you have is lighter than the 1A200 McCauley. Let some fluid out of the brake master cylinders and add a tool bag to the back of the extended baggage and you should be good.
 
Hi Pete, No you're correct. I guess I was just more focused on keeping the nose out of the dirt, than thinking about the lack of tail.

My CC experience pails in comparison to a lot of guys here, but the ones i have flown, regardless of wether they were rebuilds or CC180's, were not J3's in the flight characteristics department. I am of the opinion that if a guy wants a Sunday pattern cruiser, or a STOL competition style bird, there are better choices.

I also agree with all the above that said the CC gap seals will help the flare. I have on several occasions pulled mine off for someone else to try on their airplanes, and they have immediately ordered a set.

Steve, most of the certified 180 cubs I have flown run the 1A200. Except my neighbors (CC Rebuild with the Sensenich). I didn't realize there was a significant weight difference there. The neighbors is a good flying cub, but again heavy, and enough more fwd, that it wants tools or something in the back (so more weight).

Take care, Rob
 
ExConPilot mentioned it had "more incidence" in the original post. I've wondered what that does to the trim if you don't change the stabilizer angles as well.
 
Super Cub angle of incidence are all over the place from the factory, repairs etc. I have measured way to many Super Cubs.
 
Rob said:
...I also agree with all the above that said the CC gap seals will help the flare. I have on several occasions pulled mine off for someone else to try on their airplanes, and they have immediately ordered a set.

Take care, Rob
Click to expand...
This reminds me of either an AD note or some sort of a bulletin on the Bellanca's stabilizer/elevator gap. There is/was a requirement that a fabric tape be attached to the top of one surface and woven down through the gap to be attached to the bottom of the other surface. This to increase the effectiveness of the elevator at low speeds. This was issued during the 50's or early 60s. I remember doing one of these. Unfortunately that Bellanca was lost somewhere in upstate NY when the Dentist owner was flying in the clouds with only a T&B, managing to tear a wing off. It was reported he was seen falling separate from the plane screaming all the way down. That made an unforgettable impression upon me.

It seems to me that a similar mod on our Cubs would be a minor alteration.
 
The one time that I remember well when I got too slow on final and had no elevator left to flare.. I thought it might not turn out well and was affraid it might go over on the nose, and another pilot was right there watching to mowing the field..but it didnt turn out bad, the cg wound up making the tail come down after mains touched.. I dont think I was loaded forward of cg limit, just got to slow.
 
I say uh you hit the brakes too hard. And uh don't do that.... :rock:

I say that kidding. Sort of...

My biggest fear when I used to do demo's and check out's in new Husky's was the guy in the front seat using all of the brakes. They have great brakes. Toe not heel. I can do a lot from the back seat but there is NOTHING I can do if the guy in the front puts his 13's on the top of the rudder pedals. I always told guys to point their toes at their forehead.

As to the issues in the flare. One other thing to check that I don't think has been mentioned is if the elevator deflection is in spec.

Sorry for the expensive experience.
 
Different plane similar story. New 1978 Bellanca 7GCBC stock with sealed ailerons and elevator-an aerobatic enhancement mod from the factory. Elevator has piece of tubing between stab and elevator covers over with fabric. Flew well at all loadings single soul onboard. Then added 76" constant speed Hartzell (later 80") and elevatory authority was diminished light. Moved battery forward between feet for cold weather ops and it would not 3-point w/o power and wheel landings were a caution. Skis and floats were ok. Kept adding more survival gear to former battery location in rear cockpit in extended baggage area. Iffy control unless loaded aft. Sometimes at the end of flight with low fuel had to use reverse nose down trim (elevator trim tab up) to plant it 3-point. But nose trim was an easy forward push on the trim knob.

My takeaway from all that was despite remaining within the forward loading envelope some planes can run out of either trim or elevator authority at low airspeeds.

Gary
 
No matter how much experience you have , sucks to get old! I,m not the pilot I was 30 years ago.
 
It seems that this was one of 5 prototype Cubcrafters PA-18's.. 180 HP with Sensenich prop, lots of STC's, etc. VG's on wing, wing still wants to fly when the elevator is stalled. Can't remove any weight from forward, so added 60# sand bag to the baggage, still fairly fwd CG. The spec sheet says "3 x 3 gear" but it looks like 3" extension, but normal wheel position. Was out flying this morning, still air, approach at 55 / 50 / 45 indicated, tried trim to enough nose up to require forward stick pressure until the flare, tried faster approach in trim, seems that the bird will flare without power only if the approach speed is fairly high. cubCrafters gap seals arriving today, everyone I talk to says they really help, including one of the owners of the similar prototype aircraft who has a lot of cub experience. I thought a Boeing 727 was a bit cantankerous to get on the ground smoothly with any consistency, (I used to play short field with her in the Micronesian and Marshall islands, short slippery coral runways, but this girl is equally or more humbling. Hopefully I will have a smile on my face with the gap seals. Thanks for all the input, especially the advice on braking.
Regards,
Capn. Gary
 
Yeah, I wasn't going to hit the brakes that hard, but gal in tower yelled "STOP" ..(to another aircraft)... knee jerk reaction.. expensive! (I learned what "Booster" Scott brakes were that day). Aircraft in perfect rig per the TCDS, not sure of the actual wing incidence, but I am told it has more than the later "Top Cubs". This aircraft was sold to previous owner 15 years ago, he only put 100 hours on it. It now is 17 years since manufacture, 206 hours total time, and 5 SMOH. Video of tuft testing confirmed what I suspected, elevator stall before wing stall. As an aside, I also had a Husky (AA1B) on my 135 certificate, faster cruise, not as short landing as the cub, the spades and hinges could put creases on ones forehead and scalp if not careful, but for wildlife and other natural resource contracts, it was a great earner! I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of the UPS guy bringing my Cub gap seals, hopefully I can find some redemption tomorrow on landing! (....Hey Maverick, you got the number of that truck driving school????)

Capn. G.
 
As I posted before, I flew a Cub Crafters PA18 built it 2001. It was one of the Remanufactured ones and was still registered as a PA18 with 20 STC’s. 180 hp, vg’s strakes.I had a student at the time who is a flight test engineer for the FAA. He flew in a lot of helicopters. He did not fly for the feds, he sat there watching his gauges. I took him in that cub and with a 10 knot wind down the runway came down final with full flaps and very little IAS and carrying a bit of power. We landed 3 point and he said “ That wasn’t a landing. It was an auto rotation”
I do not claim to be anything other than an average pilot. The owner was a good pilot, but he wasn’t going to win any contests either. He could do the same or better than I. And no, my student wasn’t a heavy guy in back. At the time I weighed probably 185. He was similar or less.

The only taildraggers I owned that couldn’t be three pointed were both modified. One was a 58 C172 with the Bolen TW STC. I needed a back seat passenger or a case of oil in the baggage. The other was a Fleet 16B that had the Kinner replaced with a 220 Continental. Full stall landings resulted in the tail wheel being about a foot off the ground, but it settled almost immediately.

Rich
 
Are the flaps different than an older PA-18? Like longer overall or closer to the fuselage? Same preset deflections? Gap fairings between the wing and flap the same? Changing a known formula can create a different response from the tail in my experience.

Gary
 
skywagon8a said:
Thanks Rob,
I must be mistaken, as I have been under the impression that the CC180 was just an exact pirated copy of Piper's PA-18 with the added usual modifications. No certificated airplane should run out of elevator during flare to a landing when operated within it's certified limitations.
Click to expand...

Sort of. It has the same airfoil, and it has all the upgross mods built in, such as rear spar reinforcement and the fuselage X-bracing. But it also has some significant differences. The wings structures are entirely riveted, no use of PK screws. We had a DOI cub strike an eagle a couple summers ago in cruise. The shop that rebuilt the wing was pretty amazed at the rigidity and integrity of the structure, it was the first CC18 wing they had seen. Not sure a normal PA18 wing would be as able to withstand that event.

But mostly, they are just really heavy cubs. I feel like it is easier to fly hundreds of hours in a CC18 and then hop into a PA18 than it is to go from a light PA18 and hop into a CC18. My friends at work that have PA18s are always wishing it flew more like their own cub. Whereas when I hop in their cubs, they just feel like a really light, responsive version of what I usually deal with.
 
Added note: One difference is that since the CC18 is a different type certificate, and certificated under the modern FAR 23 process, none of the PA18 STCs apply. So if you want a stock CC18, that is a great thing to buy. But if you want a plane you can modify, it is a much more difficult process. Whether the 2300 lb gross weight is worth that is the question. They work great for our work assignment, but the light cubs go places these won't go if that is your goal.
 
skywagon8a said:
Thanks Rob,
I must be mistaken, as I have been under the impression that the CC180 was just an exact pirated copy of Piper's PA-18 with the added usual modifications. No certificated airplane should run out of elevator during flare to a landing when operated within it's certified limitations.
Click to expand...

Pete,

The CC-18-180 is indeed really close to a PA-18. As Troy noted, it's got mods: 3 x 3 gear, booster brakes, X Brace and braced tail, extended baggage, etc, etc. The one I flew had the tall instrument panel, but minimal instruments. It had a GPS/Comm, an intercom, no gyro instruments except a T/B. It also has Dakota tanks, or a copy, and the mods to increase GW.

I could never really understand why that airplane was so heavy. Honest empty weight was 1307.

Univair ribs are identical, and most parts from a SC will fit these planes.

As Troy noted, it's a nice plane, but heavy. No comparison in how it flies compared to a light SC.

Where this airplane does make sense (maybe) is on amphibious floats. That's where the 2300 pound GW really helps to stay legal. That said, it's also a heavy floatplane....and all that goes with that.

I'm told the Type Certificate is now owned by the Chinese, though CC will still build you one, I guess.

MTV
 
This is why it is so heavy!

2003 CUBCRAFTERS TOP CUB NXXXXX INSTALLED EQUIPMENT
SPECIAL FEATURES

  • 2000 lb gross weight
  • 750 lb useful load
  • 140 lb Airglass belly pod
  • 180lb Extended baggage
  • ELT Storage area
  • 46 gal. fuel
  • Vortex Generators
  • Elevator Strakes
  • Three inch heavy duty extended landing gear
  • Front and Rear leather safety seats
  • IFR/ Night instrument panel
  • Welded on float fittings
AIRFRAME

  • Rear Step
  • Front fueling steps
  • Lifting - Moving handles
  • Side access baggage door

INSTRUMENT PANEL


  • Garmin GTN 530 with traffic
  • Garmin GTX 330 mode "S" transponder
  • Altitude encoder
  • PM 3000 Audio panel / Intercom
  • ICOM IC-A200 com
  • Garmin GI-106A CDI / Glide slope
  • 3 light marker beacon
  • Shock mounted panel
  • Airspeed Indicator
  • Altimeter
  • Compass
  • Directional Gyro
  • Suction gauge
  • Sirius Sat radio
  • EI electronic Tach / Hobbs
  • Vertical Speed Indicator
  • Turn Coordinator
  • EI Oil temp / pressure
  • EI CHT / EGT / OAT (4 cyl)
  • EI Volt / Amp
  • EI Fuel computer
  • Manifold pressure gauge


WINGS AND TAIL


  • Super Cub USA35(b) airfoil
  • Stainless tie down rings
  • Heated pitot
  • Vortex generators
  • Balanced rudder and ailerons
  • Heavy Duty sealed wing struts
  • Elevator and Rudder Gap Seals

ELECTRICAL SYSTEM


  • Lightweight starter
  • Lightweight battery
  • 40 amp alternator
  • Landing / Taxi / Nav Lights
  • Interior lighting

FIREWALL FORWARD


  • Lycoming O-360-C4P 180 HP
  • Sensenich 76" metal propeller
  • Lightweight spinner
  • Aluminum oil cooler
  • Spin-on Oil filter
  • Leading Edge 4 into 1 exhaust system
  • Stainless heavy duty muffler shroud
  • Quick drain
  • Pan heater
  • Fiberglass 2 pc. Cowling
FUEL SYSTEM


  • 2 23 gal wing tanks
  • Fuel selector valve (off, left, right, both)
  • Gravity feed system (no header tank)
  • Fuel sight gauge in wing roots
  • EI Fuel computer
  • Fuel sump drains
  • Fuel filter with 3rd drain
FLIGHT CONTROLS AND INTERIOR


  • Aluminum headliner
  • Dual flight controls
  • Dual heel brakes
  • ANR headset wiring
  • Adjustable and folding front seat
  • Removable rear seat w/ under seat storage
  • Removable rear seat crossbar
  • Full floorboards
  • Map pocket
  • Tinted windows and skylight
  • Two position flap lever
  • Parking brake
  • Front and Rear cabin heat
  • Fresh air vents
  • Galvanized control cables
  • Inertia reel harnesses
  • Rear stick cover
  • Bose headset jack
LANDING GEAR


  • Cleveland wheels and double puck brakes
  • Booster brake system
  • 8:50 X 6 tires
  • Scott 3200 tailwheel
SAFETY FEATURES


  • Inertia reel shoulder harnesses
  • No header tank!!
  • Visual fuel gauges
  • Fuselage all 4130 reinforced steel
  • ACK ELT
 
The final certification basis had a 2300 lb gross weight, giving nearly 1000 lbs of useful load. The reason they really work for us is that they are a good survey platform with up to 8 hours fuel (with the half fuel belly pod) and two real humans with actual winter survival gear. They haul all that legally, which the feds really feel is a good standard to expect from their own flight program.
 
Sounds like you have intimate information on these cubs. Are you a 135 operator? I teach fire aviation and give 135 check rides for FAA, gearing up for the fire season. Been flying fire out of McGrath and Ft. Wainwright in Alaska early season, lower 48 later. Could I call you sometime with some cub questions?

Thanks,

Gary
 
ExConPilot said:
Sounds like you have intimate information on these cubs. Are you a 135 operator? I teach fire aviation and give 135 check rides for FAA, gearing up for the fire season. Been flying fire out of McGrath and Ft. Wainwright in Alaska early season, lower 48 later. Could I call you sometime with some cub questions?

Thanks,

Gary
Click to expand...

If this is directed at me, I am one of the DOI pilots following in the legacy of MTV up here in Alaska. I fly for the NPS in King Salmon and am one of the instructor pilots. I am happy to talk anytime about airplanes, at work I fly cubs 185s and a Beaver. Off work I own a tripacer and fly anything I can. Alaska area code then 4 six 9 zero 3 four 3.
 
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